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  #16  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:33 PM
diesel_fan's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnathan1 View Post
I love the smoothness of inline 6's, but I also love the instant torque of the V8.

My solution? Have one of each. An inline six for when you want to rev it like crazy on a tight twisty mountain road. (amazing) Then have a V8 around for those long highway trips, so you can accelerate ferociously when you put your foot down, no matter what speed you're going.

Oh, and since this is a mercedes forum, have a diesel around for all other times.
That's what i have!

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  #17  
Old 07-22-2010, 10:23 PM
GGR GGR is offline
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Two different engines! I like both. I'm more a '60 '70 guy so when it comes to V8s i had a nice W109 6.3. Monster torque, but running out of puff above 4000 rpm. I'm currently building a W111 Coupe with a 5.0 euro M117 mated to a 5 speed manual trans.

When it comes to L6s, I had a few M130 powered cars, but I have to admit I prefer the BMW engines. I own a '72 BM 3.0 CSI and it's just superb over 4000 rpm.
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  #18  
Old 07-22-2010, 11:01 PM
88Black560SL
 
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The more cylinders the merrier. Just get a V12. 400+ Ft-Lb torque everywhere revs like a 3.0 inline 6, because it's essentially 2 of them, smooth as a good French wine and sounds really really sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
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  #19  
Old 07-23-2010, 06:21 AM
Knappy Drag Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,725
400E vs. C36
(4.2 M119 V8 W124 vs. 3.6 M104 I6 W202.)

This 3.6 M104 I6's advantages:
Was built, modified, and breathed upon by AMG
Housed in a smaller, lighter car
Owned, maintained and driven by a M.B. master tech
Much better gearing (2.82 vs. 2.24)
Riding on MUCH better tires (4.2 car was/is on tiny 205/60-15s!)
Is newer (about the same miles though)
Not T-boned to within an inch of it's life like the 400E was

This 4.2 M119 V8's advantages:
Um, err, ah, ......
OK! Here are two! It's about a half liter bigger and...
There are 32 ports and valves feeding it instead of only 24.

Here's what happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa5h4fq2Jkg
The 4.2 had the higher MPH but the 3.6 had the quicker E/T.
If the 400E had only ONE of those advantages that the C36 enjoys (the 2.82 gears), it would easily out E/T the C36 as well.

The OP's original post was also about handling. There's less engine sitting out in front of the front wheel centerline with the V8, leading to the advantage of better weight distribution.

I don't think M.B. ever made an all aluminum I6. Their all aluminum V-8s are common however.

I had a mildly hopped up late 70s 4.2 I6 AMC Concord (no "e" on the end) that I out top ended a late 70s 450SL with and I also had another mildly hopped up late 70s 4.2 I6 AMC Concord that I out dragged a mid to late 80s 560SL with so I have been on the other side of the fence as well. Still kinda am actually cause all three of my diesels (the Volvo in my sig, a DT466E International, and a "P" pump Cummins powered Ford F700) are all I6s as well as Benzers 1 and 2! I've taken great delight through the years in spanking V8s with my various I6s!

Another thing to consider: My 12 counterweight AMC 4.2 (258) I6 cranks weigh 68 pounds, my AMC 401 (6.6L) V8 cranks weigh 62 pounds! This is despite the fact that the 401 is a much bigger engine and it's cranks are forged (which makes them denser, which makes them heavier) and the 258 cranks are cast (which makes them lighter).

Mag, did you ever post the weights of the 2.8, 3.0, 3.2 and 3.6 cranks? (For those of you who don't know, the 3.6 cranks are really 3.5 diesel cranks.) It is a safe bet that those cranks are way heavier than the 4.2 M119 crank, probably even heavier than the AMC 4.2 I6 cranks since the M.B. cranks are all forged.

This is another one of those arguments where it's kinda like trying to prove which is better: Blonds or Brunettes! (For the record, Brunettes are better!)

I'd still love to be able to add a C36 to my fleet though.
Regards, Eric
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89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D "Benzer9"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
87 300TD "Benzer11"
06 E320 CDI "Benzer12"
05 E320 CDI "Benzer12A"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.

Last edited by 400Eric; 07-24-2010 at 04:51 AM.
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  #20  
Old 07-23-2010, 12:19 PM
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I did, and I forgot the numbers. The 3.5 diesel crank is significantly heavier than the AMG crank since amg did some lightening (read: clearancing) on the crank. There is a ton of weight to be removed from them though, and I think when I build my motor I'm going to have the crank knife-edged. The one thing the M104's love to do though is turn. I'm not sure how having the stroker crank is going to change that... I'm still trying to figure out a good rod length/ compression height compromise for a low CR (9:1 ballpark) but decent rod length/stroke ratio.

The M119 head does breathe really well though and a pretty close to production M119 block and heads were used pretty extensively in racing with decent results. Never seen an M104 compaigned from the factory, and I still cant find a good flow bench or decent numbers for the gal'.


And Eric, Brunettes are better.
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  #21  
Old 07-23-2010, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.B.DOC View Post
For three years in a row I won the ATL. REGION SCCA solo-2 class "E"-street prepared in my 280E. 2.8l "I6" powered car weighing 3650 lbs. Almost all of the other cars in this class were V8 CAMAROS & MUSTANGS. Goes to show that a old I6 can be competitive w/V8's

------------------
MERCEDES BENZ MASTER GUILD TECHNICIAN
ASE MASTER TECHNICIAN
27 YEARS M.B. TECH
Any idea who this was and/or what he did to his 2.8. I wonder what version of 2.8 it was, hmmm.
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  #22  
Old 07-23-2010, 06:52 PM
88Black560SL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMURiz View Post
Any idea who this was and/or what he did to his 2.8. I wonder what version of 2.8 it was, hmmm.
Yes

He's a moderator on this sight. You will find him allot under Tech Help.
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  #23  
Old 07-23-2010, 07:00 PM
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Was it the M110 or the M104.94?
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  #24  
Old 07-24-2010, 08:32 AM
Knappy Drag Racer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAG58 View Post
I did, and I forgot the numbers.

And Eric, Brunettes are better.
You did post the weights? Where? I'm really curious! I just went through all of your posts desperately trying to find that post!

Also, is the 3.0 OM603 crank the same as the 3.2 M104 crank? Being the same stroke has me curious about that one too.

"Brunettes are better." I knew you are a smart kid!
Regards, Eric
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89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D "Benzer9"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
87 300TD "Benzer11"
06 E320 CDI "Benzer12"
05 E320 CDI "Benzer12A"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.
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  #25  
Old 07-24-2010, 02:08 PM
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Ne'er fear, I had the numbers and lost them before I posted them. Lol. I'll dig all three back out and weigh them before the stroker goes off to be knife edged and nitrided. The more mass I can cut out of this motor the happier she'll be at high RPM.

To answer your question, I'm about 95% sure that the M104 crank (3.2) is the same crank as the OM603 3.0L crank.
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  #26  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:43 AM
Knappy Drag Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,725
You also still gonna post pics of the early vs. late M104 blocks?
__________________
89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D "Benzer9"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
87 300TD "Benzer11"
06 E320 CDI "Benzer12"
05 E320 CDI "Benzer12A"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.
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  #27  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:45 AM
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 537
Yeah. I get done with summer class the 13th, I've got a whole long list of **** to do to contribute to the M104 knowledge base.

BTW IF anyone wants to donate a C36 motor for the cause, I won't say no...
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  #28  
Old 08-20-2010, 03:02 AM
Knappy Drag Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,725
OK, the 13th was a week ago. Where's that post?
Regards, Eric
__________________
89 300E "Benzer1" 15.924 Uncorrected
93 400E "Benzer3" 14.200 U.C.
95 E420 "Benzer4"
92 300E "Benzer5" 16.299 U.C. Future turbo CNG
87 300D "Benzer7"
87 300D "Benzer8"
87 300D "Benzer9"
87 300D/70 AMC Javelin "Sidewinder-Benzer"
87 300TD "Benzer11"
06 E320 CDI "Benzer12"
05 E320 CDI "Benzer12A"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" AMC 360 pwrd.
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  #29  
Old 08-20-2010, 09:58 AM
LUVMBDiesels's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diesel_fan View Post
...My solution? Have one of each. An inline six for when you want to rev it like crazy on a tight twisty mountain road. (amazing) Then have a V8 around for those long highway trips, so you can accelerate ferociously when you put your foot down, no matter what speed you're going.

Oh, and since this is a mercedes forum, have a diesel around for all other times.


That's what i have!

Me too

I have the Volvo 960 with the 3.0 l twin cam I6 quicker then my BMW and handles ALMOST as well
The SDL for 'economy'
The Suburban for torque
Of course the torque of the 603 is great too... I love pulling away from ricers...
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Last edited by LUVMBDiesels; 08-30-2010 at 02:17 PM.
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  #30  
Old 08-30-2010, 09:58 AM
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I must say as an owner of both a 300E and a e420.

The V8 is much more fun and I feel more passionate about it. The gentle rumble when started and the way it drives. I think the I6's are kinda heavy now the 200E's with the 4 cylinders feel much lighter and balanced.




Michael

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