Brake Upgrade for W124 300E - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

omegabenz · #16 01-05-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2phast
Others who have tried installing 600sl or the later model 500E calipers ran into issues that were directly related to the spindals.

I would be cautious about trying this on a W201 or W124 (both which use the W124 spindals) as the calipers won't be a direct bolt on. The only true direct bolt on would be the 400/420E calipers. I can't comment about the early 500E calipers but like Yhliem said, these were also used on the EVO which used the W124 spindals as well, so I suppose these would fit other vehicles using W124 spindals.

I am not sure about the early W124 confiuration, its possible that the 1987 W124 was different than the later model W124's, that I don't know but I do find it strange that someone could put 600sl calipers on a W124 without any problems, thats contrary to whats been reported by many, many other W201/W124 owners.

Just be carefull with your decision.

I think you are incorrect 2Phast!

Wait till the end of the week, then I have done every brake upgrade so far to my 12/1985 200E 124.020

Any rear brakes but stock are not a direct bolt on because you have to either cut the dust shield (lame in my opinion), or you can take off the hub, and put on a new 600SL dust sheild, which is the same for the 400e, and 500E, but that requires installing new wheel bearings, but thats what I did for my 600SL rear brakes.

Regarding The front Brakes,
500E Brembo brakes go right on, just bend the front dust sheild back a little, or you can put new ones one which is really easy, and you can repack your bearings while you are at it.

500E/500SL/320SL R129 brakes ATE go right on.

I am not sure about 600Sl brakes yet, let me have a week or so. They should be here wednesday.

Please don't say stuff unless you are 100% sure because a lot of people take these advices, and then tell everyone stuff doesnt fit, when it does.

Austin

2phast · #17 01-07-2004, 02:01 PM

I am repeating information posted by others WHO have tried this and ran into problems. Its important that anyone considering this type of upgrade consider that it MIGHT work and it MIGHT NOT. There have been many more attempts at this kind of upgrade with the end result of it being a failure. More failures than success's.

Don't get me wrong, I hope it works and glad that you had success with your early model W124. Of course this does not mean that owners of later model W201's or W124's wont have problems though.

Also, these upgrades DON'T require new wheel bearings, but if you pull the front dust shield, then you might as well replace the bearings (have to pull the bearings to replace the shield)

Nothing lame about cutting the rear dust shields, thats all they are anyway is a dust shield and/or insulator for heat. Rear brakes are more of a direct bolt on than the fronts, both calipers and rotors go on without problems, its the issue of swapping/cutting dust shields. Not a direct bolt-on normally indicates other major issues with bolting the rotors/calipers onto the spindals.

omegabenz · #18 01-07-2004, 03:17 PM

2phast, its always my word against yours. Did you see the cold air post with all the OE parts that I did for you?

2phast · #19 01-07-2004, 05:13 PM

Again, like I said, the information I am posted is pulled from OTHERS experiences, not mine. Nor am I saying that this upgrade WONT work, nor am I disputing any of your claims. I am simply stating that OTHERS have failed because of the R129 spindal problem (used on the 500E and 500/600sl) and that anyone considering this path should (like always) do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

omegabenz · #20 01-07-2004, 09:40 PM

WHO? Do you know that has had problems? Let me discuss it with them?

I have the most early model 300E body you can get 12/1985 and all the brake upgrades I have done so far have been fine.

I just got a set or 600SL hubs, but I have not put them on this car yet. It still has stock hubs.

Did you check out the CAI post? I scavenged junk yards looking for those those numbers specifically for you.

omegabenz · #21 01-09-2004, 05:12 AM

Some questions

Cryo/cadmium questions
I have some Zimmermann Perforated rotors (560SEC) and
I would like to know even though I have about 3k miles
on them can I still have them cadmium plated, and/or
cryogenically frozen. Do they have to be new to
cadmium plate? What is the turn around time on this?
How much does it cost? Is it worth it to keep them from rusting?

500E brakes
Does Brembo make the stock replaement 300mm front
rotors? I know balo and ate do, but I wanted to get
brembo rotors because I have brembo calipers. Is this
possible?

I heard that ate power slots wear the pads down fast, but I am not sure thats hear say. Does anyone have specific experience with this? My brother has them on his car, but he doesnt drive it this time of the year and he just put them on.

As you guys know, I bought a set of four 600Sl calipers,
rotors, pads from another member. I made him a fedex return label from fedex.com, but I guess like that you cant add insurance, and I did not know that. I was brand new to the system.

I thought that I added 1000 dollars of insurance and they lost them! How great for me? My biggest problem is that I was expecting these brakes before the weekend to put on my car because I go back to school on monday.

I sold my OLD brakes, my ATE 500E brakes with the rotors and pads, so the only thing I have for front brakes for my car right now is a set of nearly new brembo calipers 500E, with pads, but I have no rotors!!!! AHHHH!!!! So my car was sitting on the car rack tonight, I tried to put the wheels on without the rotor, no can do, the hub spindle wont let the wheel go on. And the caliper hit, so I took the caliper and swung it behind where its supposed to be mounted and ziped tied it to the hub. So I was like BBS wheels clear everything, so I took off my bbs RC wheels off my 83 300CD, pounded out the hubring (screwed it up) and then I put those wheels on my 200E car so I could get it off the
car rack and out of my dad's way.

Sorry I had to vent. Any advice on Fedex? If you do, just email me.

Moral of the story, DO not sell your current stuff that works until you verify that the stuff you are putting in comes to your house, you make sure it works, then you can sell your old stuff. Take heed of my horrible experience and make something good of it and apply it to your life.

If brembo makes 500E rotors 300mm, Im just going to buy some of those and put my AMG wheels back on and park the car for the winter.

UGH!!!!!!

Hope you guys are having a better week than I!

Thanks,

omegabenz · #22 01-09-2004, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BlackBeauty
I got a downloaded spreadsheet on W124 brakes. If I remember clearly, the credit goes to GSXR. Anyways, it lists 2 types of 500E brake set up. One is 300 x 28, the other is 320 x 30.

Of course, I would like to go with the 320 x 30. Are the Calipers 2 pot calipers or 4 pot?? The part numbers I got are as follows:

Caliper: 001-420-00/01-83

Rotor: 129-421-17/18-12

Pads: 002-420-15-20

Rgds,
Brandon

Front and rear brakes, including calipers, rotors, pads, sensors all from the Mercedes-Benz dealer is nearly 3400 dollars list price without tax. Thanks to Guido today for helping me out so I can submit my claim to fedex.

I hope you guys dont have to go through this stuff again. UGH!!!

omegabenz · #23 01-09-2004, 05:24 AM

See, I think upgrading the front brakes is better because rear brakes if they are too big can lock up.

So do you fronts first. On a race car you need to do all four at the same time though.

1993 300E brakes are 4 piston calipers which are nice, they take the same pads as 300CE brakes, 400E, 500E, 600SL brakes, so the sweep area is the same on all four, just the rotors get bigger, when the rotors get bigger it reduces fade, not so much braking power.

Throw in a good set of pads like R4-S porterfields and you would be very suprised.

300CE
300E late model E320
400E E420
500E / 320SL / 500SL R129
E500 / 600SL

Are all great upgrades? GSXR seems to think that 400E brakes are the most bang for the buck, I think I would agree. For 190s, and 300Es and Ds.

Good luck with your upgrade. For the amount of time and money I have spend screwing around with brakes, I could have bought the Brembo Gt kit, which I still might do. Guido has the Stoptech kit for his 500E, and from what I hear he really likes it. They, at stoptech, use some kind of ferrari caliper and adapt it.

Anyway, if you want to buy some 911 turbo 2002 brakes if you want to screw with them let me know. I have those, Im not going to use them so I might as well sell them.

My friend owns a junk yard, he has a set of E420 rear brakes, a set of E320 brakes front, and I think thats about it right now for w124s.

Regards,

BlackBeauty · #24 01-09-2004, 05:46 AM

Omegabenz, how much would you let the Porsche brakes go for?

And what work do you think it will involve, to get them fitted on a 300CE. I'm running 18"s so no problems with clearance issues. Let me know.

Thanks pal.

Rgds

omegabenz · #25 01-09-2004, 01:07 PM

Probably
$800 w/ shipping for calipers, rotors, brake lines, brake pads from a 2002 996 with about 8k miles on them.

I think you would have to use like a 600SL mercedes rotor, then mount the caliper at the right distance and offset, and thats about it.

#26 01-09-2004, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by omegabenz
Some questions

Cryo/cadmium questions
I have some Zimmermann Perforated rotors (560SEC) and
I would like to know even though I have about 3k miles
on them can I still have them cadmium plated, and/or
cryogenically frozen. Do they have to be new to
cadmium plate? What is the turn around time on this?
How much does it cost? Is it worth it to keep them from rusting?

I heard that ate power slots wear the pads down fast, but I am not sure thats hear say. Does anyone have specific experience with this? My brother has them on his car, but he doesnt drive it this time of the year and he just put them on.

Thanks,

Pad wear is affected, but also you need to take into consideration drivng style, Pad type, and also the installation. A bad install with a bad bleed job and poor caliper/piston release will also kill pads early. So it may be hard to quantify. Without 5 or 10 of the same exact cars, except fo differnt pads, to test side by side under controlled conditions... who knows?

You can reprocess your used rotors al long as there is enough to surface them properly.

The platers/coaters are a 48 hour turn around on most parts. They are local. They pick up from the shop and deliver twice a week on Tuesday and Thursday mornings. The plating help with rust and appearance on non contact surfaces. The plating would eventualy be worn from the contact surface.

Cryo will need to be sent out and it would be about a week to turn around. The pricing is dependant on weight if done as a lot charge or by part.

Email me if you want more info or prices.

E DREAM · #27 01-16-2004, 04:51 AM

I have a set of 500E OEM rotors front and rear sitting in my garage if your interested. They are from 1992 500E. Dont need them anymore as I put on the brembo cross drilled cheese graters

cadmium plating looks great after 1 1/2 years of driving. just got a set of silver cad plated 400E rotors for my 190E 2.6 5-SPEED. they go to the cryo tank next week.

omegabenz · #28 01-16-2004, 09:23 AM

E Dream,

Guess what I ended up with two sets of 500E zimmermann "cross drilled rotors" LOL. Thanks for the offer. And fedex says they "might have found my stuff"

Is it better to cadmium plate, then cryo treat or vice versa?

Can you email me, id like to send my extra rotors in to do the same as you?

Thanks

E DREAM · #29 01-16-2004, 09:45 AM

Mine are silver plated, slotted/drilled at all 4 corners. I called performance cryogenics and made arrangements to have them frozen. So they will be frozen after plating. Seems to me that you want to freeze after everything else is done. That's just me though. Dont know if itz better the other way around.

gsxr · #30 02-27-2004, 10:28 PM

I finally got a round tuit and started messing with my E420 brake upgrade. Someone on the MBshop forum tried this and said the bigger front rotor hit the lower control arm, d'oh. But Rick (2phast) had no problems with his 190E, so I figured it was worth a gamble. Anyway, they don't fit - yet. With the stock font rotors, there is about 3mm air gap to the splash shield, and another 3mm from the back side of the shield to the ball joint / LCA (lower control arm). The problem is, the bigger (294mm) front rotors are 6mm deeper! Translation - no air gap, no fittee. If the shield was removed entirely, the rotor would probably be 1-2mm from the LCA, way too close IMO.

There are a couple solutions. The obvious method is to use the correct, late model LCA designed for the bigger rotors. The bad part is they're ~$100/pair used, plus another $100+ for new Sportline LCA bushings, and - get this - the BJ is not replaceable! It's welded in place. IF the BJ goes bad, you have to buy another control arm! They're $250/ea new wholesale, ouch. Translation - ~$525 for new ones, or ~$225 used with new bushings. OUCH.

Another option is to swap the 500E/R129 hub, knuckle, and steering arm. I'm not sure if this will work with the 294mm rotors I currently have, but it will work with either the 300mm or the 320mm rotors from the 500E/R129. Since I don't have any of that stuff and it's not cheap to get new OR used, I'm scratching that idea. It would be ok if you can get the bigger stuff to begin with, but I didn't, oh well.

The 278mm rears are fine - they will bolt up with zero problems once the splash shield is cut or replaced. Austin says the bigger 300mm rears used on the SL600 and most later AMG models also bolt up, using the SL600 rear rotor. Sooooo, I'll probably end up getting used front LCA's, hoping they have good BJ's, and installing new Sportline bushings in the used LCA's.

Some new photos of the parts & current brakes have been uploaded to my website, and there is also a spreadsheet there with all the part numbers for the brake parts, LCA's, etc etc. I just updated this with some corrected part numbers, current pricing, etc so make sure you've downloaded it recently - should be dated Feb-24, 2004, or later:

http://www.meimann.com/images/mercedes/W124_brakes/

Best regards,