A new oil for Diesels!!!

To begin with, we need a " general" column to post hints to everyone......

After searching high and low for months and researching oils and brands, I have some good news, well for me anyways.

First, did you know that Pennzoil and Quakerstate have merged?

I went into my local dealer today, and popped the same question that I ask everyone, to which I always get a seperate and different answer, weird isnt it?. That question is, " what oil do you reccomend for my 98 Turbo-diesel?.

Would you believe that at another Benz dealer, I was told by the parts guy, that they are putting 10W-30 into the Diesels? He gave me the usual speach, and I quietly slipped away.......

However, today, I was told that Benz is now suggesting a new oil that Quakerstate has put on the market, it is called FCI, which stands for Fleet, Commercial, Industrial.
It is a SAE 15W-40 oil. They also call it a Universal HDX, whatever that means.

There is actually a neat little story behind all of this, I actually went to the plant in Burlington, Ontario where Quakerstate has there headquarters in Canada, and talked to 2 salesmen, whom told me to go to NAPA, where I could buy the oil. So off I went to NAPA, and after talking to the girl behind the counter and another guy, guess who they brought from the backroom to talk to me!... The Quakerstate Rep, just happened to be there!

So, after a long and drawn out talk on all things slippery, I left with 9 litres of new liquid gold. Not to mention that to do my first oil change at my "new' house I had to buy all the tools my dad always supplied , so after 4 stores, I was armed with all the stuff needed to do my first oil change.

Not to get sidetracked here, but I said this before, and so did others, but the benz owners manual is not very informative when it comes to finding out what kind of oil to use. Everywhere else in the book it is very specific on what brand,viscosity, etc.. to use, but when it comes to oils, guess what it says?.... " Recommended engine oils"
hmmmm, so you go to the dealer and ask them, and guess what they say....... yup, check your owners manual.

One comment from the peanut gallery is in order:

" Get your act together!"

So, I called the Head Tech at Mercedes-Benz Canada, a fine Gentleman by the name of Tony Bairos, whom said that I can use any oil as long as it has the classifications of API, CF4, CG4, and I believe its equilvalent in Europe is B2,B3.

In checking out the new Quaker-State FCI, SAE 15W-40 , the label says API CH4,CG4,CF4,CF/SJ.

This is important, I checked almost every oil on the shelves, and some of the most popular oils are rated still at SG, which is 3 levels below this oil.

Maybe also an important message to tell, is the back label which reads" Quaker State FCI Universal HDX Engine Oil is specially formulated for use in heavy duty diesel engines including those that are turbocharged and supercharged. HDX also provides outstanding protection in 4-cycle gasoline engines. Be sure to follow engine manufacturers requirements for the proper SAE grade versus outside temperatures."

" Recommended for Mack EOM, Cummins CES 20071 and Allison C4.9.2 TBN."

This sounds like the oil I have been looking for, I have finally gotten my answers answered .( Intelligently I might add.)

And on the synthetic side, Benz apparently is not saying yeah, or nay, more confusion...

So there you have it, over and out.

Well!!!!

I just spent over an hour researching this even more, and I thought Quakerstate had a good site, till I went to Shells, man what a comprehensive and well done site!

However, although their site was more descriptive(marketing), these two oils have the same ratings. I have the tech sheets for Rotella, and will try to get them also for FCI.and will report back later.

Either I am getting old, or oils are really improving fast, but I was reading a quote on shells site that says" CD and CE, and other obsolete ratings"... but it seems like only yesterday I was using these oils!!!!!!!!

Well, here we go again.......

You might wonder, " why bother with all this Internet stuff, and why bother with reading these posts from unknown people, and why should I be up at 1 am surfing the web...

Well, heres proof why you should do this.

This whole quest was so I could learn more about oils on the market, and rather than just listing to and taking someones opinion at face value, we turn to more concrete sources, the companies tech and data sheets from the labs.

Well guess what, I went to to Company that the Dealership has been using for my motor oil, and guess what I found out?. The oil does not meet the specifications that Mercedes-Benz dictates.

But dictates is such a loose word here, as in my manual it just says " use recommended oil", remember that going round in circles scenario?

So since my car was new, or after the 1st oil change, the dealership has been putting in the wrong oil, hence maybe voiding the warranty?

This should be warning enough for everyone to take charge and research things through the Internet and groups like this board.

Trust me, this is not over, I am going to be making some very pointed questions to my Dealership, and Benz directly.

Yes, this has been a wake-up call.

I'm not a diesel user, but several of them I've talked with use Mobil Delvac. The Mobil web site has quite a bit of information. The easiest way to find it is to search on "Delvac" from the main page.

Happy searching.

Phil Briggs
300CE

[Robert W. Roe]

Chris, I have run into the same situation with my local independent. They used Castrol 15W40 in my diesels. Later I heard that Castrol is not an MB approved diesel oil. Does anyone know of a list of all oils that MB recommends? Or is it only that the oil meet certain standards? My options are to take my own oil to the independent, use the wrong oil, not worry about it and/or hope, or go elsewhere, I guess. I hope I'm not stretching the scope of this forum; if so, I apologize.

------------------
Robert W. Roe
1984 300SD 165K miles

I use Castrol RX Super 15W-40 Diesel oil which claims to meet MB passenger car performance requirements.

Robert, you are not expanding this column beyond its original intent, but instead I am guilty of this, the original poster of this thread!

However, it has sprouted off into several different areas, and I am glad, and upset(circumstances) at the same time.

In answering your questions:

1. I to used to use Castrol 15W-40 oil in my past 6 Diesel Cars, I used this oil faithfully, and it didnt let me down. This oil was good enough for the older cars at THAT time.

2. Mercedes can not dictate what " brand " of oil they recommend, that would be like saying you have to go to only one gas station. In relation to this story, I just learned that mercedes just signed a contract here in Canada( or my local dealer ) and switched from Castrol to Quaker State.

3. As far as Mercedes having a list of oils that they recommend, they cant even get their act together in the new manuals they supply for their cars!, it is blank!

4. Now for your car, and by checking your profile, I am assuming you have an early 80's diesel, this oil, Castrol 15W-40 is fine for your car, but it would not okay for the new Diesels.

------------------
Chris Ecklund
98 300 DT

So, the saga continues.........

I called Mercedes-Benz Head Office, and talked the 2nd tech in Command, whom basically said the following " If you or the dealership has been using an oil that is not approved by Mercedes-Benz, you will have voided the warranty"

Fact 1: The dealer has not been using an approved oil

Fact 2: The warranty is therefore voided.

Fact 3. I am probably the only one out of thousands whom has researched this enough to find this out.

Fact 4. Now I have to find out if there is any damage to my engine.

Fact 5. I am glad I never take the word of someone when I have concerns over the reliabilty and or truth of their statements.

[Robert W. Roe]

Chris, I'm sorry to hear that your dealer has voided the factory warranty, and I see by your profile that you are in Canada. I'm no lawyer, but, here's my thinking: The owner's manual says that you should only take your new MB to an authorized MB service facility to maintain the warranty. By taking your car there you are living up to your end of the requirements for the warranty to be in effect. Since the dealership was negligent in their choice of oil to put in your brand new car, here in the litigious USA, lawyers would suggest sueing the dealership.

I'm also wondering not only how you can determine if there is any damage to your engine, but how you might convince your dealership to take care of you. I'm thinking at least a free compression and leak-down test. I wonder if there's a record made of this test at the factory. Comparing the two and seeing if they are within some nominal variance would tell you if the engine has worn excessively. I know, wishful thinking that MB would still have, and give you, this information.

Anyway, can't MB recommend certain oil grades for certain engines? Didn't BMW have a "detergency test" for its gasolines back in the 1980's because their fuel injectors were clogging? Perhaps this level of testing, not directly related to automotive R&D, is too expensive these days.

Either that, or only BMW was having problems with certain fuels? (I knew someone with a BMW 635CSI that would stall at highway speeds from this. He either had to run Techron in each tank or use only approved fuel brands.)

These days, I guess it's cheaper to let an oil industry testing body come up with the specifications, then just recommend "SAE CF or better."

I've never seen the owner's manual of the new E class; doesn't it at least tell you recommended viscosities and grades? If it doesn't, that's pretty sad; most cars I've owned have had this info.

Getting back to my SD, rereading your original posts, it seems that the oil that is approved for use in your 98 300DT is better than oil that is ok in my 84 SD? I'm going to look for this Quaker State oil, or at least the CH4 designation. I believe that the S in the ratings is for spark (gas) engine oil ratings and the C is for compression (diesel) engine oil ratings. I'd wonder too, whether your car came from the factory with synthetic oil.

Robert W. Roe
1984 300SD 165K miles

[This message has been edited by Robert W. Roe (edited 08-22-1999).]

Rob: Many things are happening since I have learned this mistake that Mercedes-Benz has made.

1. I have learned that the EPA had new laws that came into effect for the 1998 model year, this could have something to do with the new diesel engine that benz came out with. I believe these where "firsts" for this engine, them being 4 valves per cylinder, an Intercooler, and Catalytic Converter. Add to this a huge Garrett Turbocharger, and the result is one hell of an engine. Another thing is that because of the lower emissions that the EPA demanded from the tailpipe, did benz do this simply by adding a catalytic converter and 2 extra valves?, or did they have to adjust the timing of the pump, like several other engine manufactureres did.

Also, with soot being the major culprit coming out of the pipe, and the EPA saying this has to be stopped, there is only one place for all that soot to go, that being the oil.

hence the new ratings of oil, as the new diesels are even harder on the oil than the old ones.

What I still have to research more, is that the addition of the CH-4 rating improve its lubriticity at all, or was it simply the "soot" factor that was improved.

The new oils are definently better, and would do a better job than the other oil you are now using.

In 2002 the EPA will be coming out with new standards that will make it even tougher for engine makers and oil companies to keep developing and improving the qualities of there oils.

Benz has already done a lot of homework here, with adding more displacemnent, and direct injection for the next model year.

And in reading between the lines, I think I can ascertain from hours of reading web sites from industry companies involved in this stuff, that not only will the CH4 oils do a better job of handling soot management, but they will also help lower exhaust emmissions in older diesels as well.

Soot management is only one of the new extras with these new oils.

I have also talked to a testing lab, and performed myself a crude paper test with results I can not confirm at this time.

I will take my oil to a lab and check it for all the tests possible, and report back to this group at a later date. I am very interested as to how the results will turn out.



------------------
Chris Ecklund
98 300 DT

[Benzmac]

Chris, Thanks for the info! I'm glad to say that at my shop we do use the Quaker State 15W40 and always have. We purchased it under the HDX name. We did not know of this rating system that Mercedes has gone to, but I am certainly glad we do adhere to it. Thanks again not only for doing all of the legwork but also for posting it for our subscribers!!
Donnie

------------------
Benzmac:
ASE CERTIFIED MASTER AUTO TECHNICIAN
SERVICE MANAGER FOR 14 BAY FACILITY
MERCEDES SPECIALIST 8 YRS
PARTNER IN MERCEDESSHOP.COM

ive used d-a extra treated III oil for years in my 240,300sd,2.5d,s350,ford 7.3
clean eng. after 250k on the trucks

[Robert W. Roe]

I just found this on the alt.auto.mercedes newsgroup. Pardon the length but I thought it might be useful.

Subject:
Diesel Engine Oil Research
Date:
Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:43:23 GMT
From:
Jay Quinn <jpquinn@home.com>
Organization:
Jay Quinn
Newsgroups:
alt.auto.mercedes, alt.autos.mercedes, alt.autos.german, alt.autos
References:
1


This post/email is for those who own a Mercedes-Benz '98 or '99 E300
Turbodiesel (606 Engine) (210 Body). It requires a special type of
oil. All the oils listed both Crude and Synthetic, and are OK to run in
our special engines.

The Specs list that comes with our cars is API: CE, CF-4 and CG-4 for
American, and CCMC Classifications: D4, D5 and PD2 for European.
Meaning, that any oil with any one, all three or any combination there
of, is OK to use. I kept a narrow focus on only CG-4 and CH-4 rated
oils for both crude and Synthetic.

Note: CH-4 ('98) rating is higher than, and covers CG-4 ('95), as CG-4
is higher than, and covers CF-4 ('90). This link takes you straight to
the API for Diesel oils for more of an explanation.
http://www.api.org/programs_services/quality/oilchart.htm

I've not selected every brand and maker in the world, but only the most
common, as it’s hard enough to find the right oil for our cars.

In case I have made a mistake, or have missed some oils that should be
on the list, please let me know.

Otherthan Amsoil and Redline, which are very expensive, the other oils,
are going to be hard to find.

If I can locate synthetic CH-4 &/or CG-4that isn't Redline or Amsoil,
I'll let everyone know. If you find out, then please share.

Heres a list of Crude oils that have CH-4 &/or CG-4 rating:

Chevron Delo 400 ESI / 15W40 http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/nafl/L1_framesetNS4.html
(Delo 400 MultiGrade has CH-4 & CG-4)

Pennzoil Marine Motor / 15W40 http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/nafl/L1_framesetNS4.html
(Hit the link, it will d/l a .pdf file, you must have adobe Acrobat
reader)

Shell Rotella T Plus / 15W40 http://www.shell.ca/oshell/tipprint-e/1-11-01.htm

Valvoline All Fleet Plus Motor oil http://www.valvoline.com/
(Select the above name to get the product specs)

Texaco/Havoline Formula3 Diesel SAE 30, 15W-40 and 10W-30 http://www.texaco.com/products/index.html
(Click Product Catalog, then click Product by name to get CG-4 specs)

Quaker State 4x4 Special Synthetic Blend / 15w40 http://www.quakerstate.com/resources/index/prod_services_index.html
Hit Car Motor oil, then the 4x4 icon to get to the specs)

Exxon Superflow Diesel 10W30 & 15W40 http://www.exxon.com/exxonusa/commercial_services/index.html

Citgo Citguard 500 / 10W30 and 10W40 http://www.citgo.com/Products/Lubricants/Lubricant_Product_Categories/CITGARD_500_Motor_Oils/citgard_500_motor_oils.asp#2

Citgo Citguard 600 / 15W40 http://www.citgo.com/Products/Lubricants/Lubricant_Product_Categories/CITGARD_600_Motor_Oils/citgard_600_motor_oils.asp#3

(Meets CH-4 and CG-4 specs)

Conoco Hydroclear / 10W30 and 10W40 http://www.conoco.com/buy/lubricants/techdata.html
(Click Tech Notes, will d/l a .pdf for specs)
(CH-4 and CG-4)

Castrol
N/A – I’ve emailed and await their response, web contains no API info

//

Heres a list of Synthetic Oils that have CG-4 rating:

Mobil Delvac 1 / 5W40 http://www.mobil.com/business/marine/lubes/
Follow the links

Amsoil Series 3000 Synthetic 5W30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil http://www.amsoil.com/products/hdd.html
Amsoil 15W40 and SAE 30 Diesel Oils http://www.amsoil.com/products/ame.html
(Lots of various combo's with CG-4)

Redline 15W40 Diesel Engine Oil http://www.redlineoil.com/engoil.htm
(Scroll to bottom of Page – Click at the top for the .pdf file to read
that it’s CG-4)
(Called, $8.50/QT, $7.25/QT if bought by Case = $87.00 ouch!)

Fina First 5W50 http://www.fina.com/en/ch7/2a.htm

Castrol
N/A – I’ve emailed and await their response, web contains no API info

//

Thanks,

Jay
jpquinn@home.com