Do I need new wheel bearings?

[mpolli]

I just got a one-owner 1998 C230 with 133,000 miles. I noticed that the steering seemed a little "loose" and followed ruts in the road. I jacked up the front end and noticed that when grabbing the wheel at 3 and 9 o'clock I got quite a bit of play, which was from the inner joints of the center/drag link. I replaced that and this play is now gone. Also the toe in was about zero so I set that also. However, I also noticed that when grabbing the wheel at 12 and 6 o'clock there was a smaller amount of play that I believe is from the wheel bearings. I checked the end play and found it at the high limit of 8 ten thousandths so I reduced it to 5 1/10000" by only about a 1/2 degree tightening of the lock nut. I thought it would take about 2 degrees considering the pitch of the threads but it didn't. It still wiggles the same as far as I can tell and the main symptom that I still have is oversteer: When I go onto a freeway on ramp for example, as I steer into the turn, it oversteers and I must let up on the wheel. My last car was a 1987 Toyota Supra and it had none of this, and it had 260,000 miles. Any opinions on the wiggle in the wheel and if new bearings will help, and if this might get rid of the oversteer?

Thanks,
Mike

[nglitz]

Your wheel bearing sound fine, though it wouldn't hurt to regrease them. They tend to get noisey when they're ready to give up the ghost.

Oversteer is almost always a rear axle phenomenon. It could be as simple as low tire pressure in the rear or as complexificated as rotten bushings.

Best of luck,

[HitParader]

On an American car the wheel play you described often indicates worn ball joints. Sorry I am not familiar enough with the C-class suspension to suggest whether that may be your problem also.

The only way you will find your problem is by applying the 4 P's, Push, Pull, Pry and Prod on everything suspension related under the car. Don't overlook the members in the rear suspension. A worn dogbone in the rear suspension will effect handling, probably more than most things that can wear out in the front.

Hope this helps,

[mpolli]

Thanks all,

My tire pressure is fine. I am very picky about that. I will concentrate on the rear suspension components as suggested. With the 5 links on each side, can anyone suggest where the trouble might be likely found?

Mike

[radunegru]

Best think change all of them I did change One by one from the front to the back( thrust arm,struts arm, camber strut, sway bar bushings etc ...etc $600 only parts change them myself ..and after every piece changed I took the car for a road test.(huge amount of work just to convince myself ) but even when the last piece of suspension was new tha car was still swaying.I have figured out that subframe bushings are bad. I am going to change them but I am tied of working on this car( for the moment)

[mpolli]

I have checked the data I have and cannot find any eveidence of subframe bushings. Do I have these on the C230? I don't think it has a sub frame. (Maybe these are located near the muffler bearings...?)

MP

[psfred]

MP:

Four subframe bushings, one on each side above and behind the suspension links, one on each side in front of the subframe, under the rear seat. About 3" diameter, fronts are different than the rears.

Your's are gel filled at the factory (as are all the replacments, earlier ones are solid rubber). Look for cracks. If you see any, they need replacement.

How did you set the toe? The suspension Benz uses up front REQUIRES a spreader bar in order to set the toe correctly, or they steer funny. Don't remember the specs at the moment, but I believe it is near zero. If you gave it ANY tow-out, it will drive exactly as you describe, plus will be very sensitive to crosswinds. Normally these cars don't respond to anything but heavy crosswind.

Torque steer (pulls one way on acceleration, the other way on trailing throttle) and or thumps from under the rear seat on throttle transitions is usually a bad torque link in the rear suspenstion (the one that runs diagonally form the front of the wheel carrier to the subframe at an angle). Look for shredding rubber or cracks in the rubber, if you see any, replace BOTH links (right and left) as the other one won't be far behind.

Given the age and milage, I suspect the front toe needs to be set properly.

Peter

[mpolli]

Peter,

Thanks for the info. I will look for those bushings. AllData doesn't mention them anywhere but at this point I am not surprised. In my opinion they should call themselves AllChilton. If anyone has any opinion on them one way or the other I am all ears.

As far as the toe in, I made a spreader bar and pushed on the wheels/tires pretty hard and saw them move out and then back when I released. I measured the toe in both ways and found very little difference. As far as my procedure, it is kind of detailed to say exactly what I did, but basically I made a a gauge to measure from specific points on the inside edges of the rim from right to left both front of knuckle and behind and used the sin button on my calcluator and some other buttons and was able to hit the 25' spec on the nose as far as I am concerned.

I think before I go too crazy I might try to drive a newer one and see if that is just "how they are"

Mike

[psfred]

Um, did you know about roll oversteer? It's quite eaxy to put a Benz into a four wheel drift on interstate ramps, the have more than adequate power (except the old 220D!) and will "oversteer" if you get on the gas hard in turns.

This is normal unless you are expecting the "plow" you get on American and other frontwheel drive cars set up for "safe" handling -- that is, they loose side force on the front tires and slide sideways when overloaded.

On the W115 suspension, it is possible to dismount the outside front tire under extreme cornering. The rear anti-sway bar was lightened up on later models so that the REAR tires start to slip from body roll before the front tire comes off. This unloads the front tire and tells the driver that the car is reaching adhesion limits and will shortly go off the road if pushed any more. the higher slip in the rear causes you, the driver, to turn "back" some to pull the rear back into line, reducing the side force on the front tires and slowing you down. If you continue, you are actually steering LESS, so you go faster due to less slip on the tires. Nice racing move, but I don't really recommend driving this fast on the interstate.

Very stable, safe, and predictable, but a surprise if you aren't used to it.

Watch your speedo, you may be going faster than you think!

Peter

[mpolli]

I will note my speed next time but as I recall I was doing my best "old man" driving impersonation at the time. Not going very fast. In a previous post I said that I had my tire pressure set perfectly by which I meant it is exactly as stated on the door jamb sticker when cold. But I have since been informed by some people here that I should ignore that and go quite a bit higher in front and back. I am guessing they are wrong but wondering if anyone has any opinion on that. Maybe I would just be happier with the sport package. Probably.

[psfred]

Unexpected rear steer on these cars is something loose in the back, either suspension links or bad subframe mounts. They will allow the wheel carreir to shift, and alter the camber and toe of the rear tires(s).

Usually worse one way than the other, the right side goes first for some reason.

Peter

[haasman]

mpolli

If it were my car, I would replace the front and rear sway bar rubber bushings to begin with. After 100k miles they get pretty elongated. Be sure and check the rear sway bar links as well. Not expensive might as well do them at the same time. JUST replacing these bushings makes Mercedes behave much better in turns and transient rolls.

As the body of a car ages, the car tends to "gang-up" on its suspension meaning more roll and less control in tight turns.

If you are expereincing oversteer (the rear wheels wanting to swing around) that is unsual for a Mercedes. All Mercedes are designed and delivered with understeer for safety and control reasons. Either you are driving your car very aggressively or there is a problem such as a broken rear sway bar link.

Keep us posted,

Haasman

[nglitz]

Originally Posted by haasman

If you are expereincing oversteer (the rear wheels wanting to swing around) that is unsual for a Mercedes. All Mercedes are designed and delivered with understeer for safety and control reasons. Either you are driving your car very aggressively or there is a problem such as a broken rear sway bar link.

Actually, if there was a broken rear sway bar link, it would make the car tend towards understeer.

General rule of thumb: stiffer components at one end tend to put more load on the outer tire at that end. I.e. stiffer front shocks, sway bar or springs cause understeer. Stiffer rear components causes oversteer.

Back to Mikes car, my best guess is a work bushing or link that's allowing the rear tire to change toe as it's loaded. This is essentially the same thing that psfred said. It doesn't take much rear toe change to make dramatic changes in handling.

When I was driving a formula ford, I used 1/16" total rear toe in on the race track. I used 1/8" toe out on tight autocrosses to make it really whip around. I started a practice at Nelson ledges once with autocross settings. too scarey for me & definitely not fast. Thank goodness it wasn't Watkins Glen where you're surrounded with guardrails everywhere.

enjoy,

[haasman]

Interesting .... then he should check for a broken front sway bar link (common on 124 chassis cars, esp right front)

Haasman