Is the E55 AMG suspension different than that of a W210 Sport suspension?

Can the above shocks be used with standard springs?

I ask this because sportline shocks on a W124 must be used with sportline springs.

Hi Paul,

Excellent summary, thank you for closing the loop on this thread. I would be very curious how/if your Lexus opinion might change after driving a GS430 though :-) I still plan to push my 124 to the limit, but the GS430 AWD continues to skirt the horizon for me...

-DM

Yes the AMG suspension is more aggressive than the SPORT suspension.

My understanding is that the E55 AMG shocks will work with the stock springs, since there is no limiting spring in the shocks and the stroke is virtually the same.

Of course the perfect match is the AMG shocks with the AMG springs, but IMHO, it is OK to have a 20-30% stiffer shock vs. springs, but not the other way around (otherwise, the springs never get really dampened).

:-) neil

Hey, thanks for the info.

To tell you the truth, I was a passenger in a CLK55 AMG once, and I thought the suspension was a little harsh for my taste.

I wonder if the Sport suspension is a better fit for me.

Do you know if the the sport springs are different than the original springs?

CLK is a very different chassis than the W210. I would ride in an E55 AMG just to make sure.

I don't know if the Sport springs are different than the original.

:-) neil

I drove a 01 E55 AMG. The ride was not bad. It absorbed road imperfections fairly well. My friend bought it for $31,000 on ebay with 56K miles, 1 owner, upgraded seats/navigation etc.

Instead of spending several thousand dollars on suspension upgrades, you may want to replace your car with the E55 AMG. That way, you will be able to use the factory specs for alignment etc.

I drove a 05 ML350 for a few days, that vehicle has an unacceptable ride, bouncy, choppy with uncomfortable seats and lots of engine, road and wind noise. along with vibrations. The ride was too sporty, at the cost of comfort. It was not bad in the city, but lacked power at highway speeds. As comparison, my 94 E320 comes to life at highway speeds!

The W124 was designed for the autobahn, but some of the newer models like the ML are for the local US consumption.

I was hesitant at first, so I just took off the connector and temporarily jumpered it for two weeks.

There really is NO side-effects, because it won't just drop down a gear without other factors being present (e.g., speed; throttle position; etc.).

Try it, you'll like it, and nothing to fry.

:-) neil

There is no difference between the E430 Sport and the E430 suspension. The "sport" is just a wheel and tire package and a body kit.

The ES330 is a tarted up Camry with Lexus badges glued to it. I would hope the W210 is better.

Ditto to the above about the Camry / Lexus. There are only two Lexus cars to worry about: The LS430 and the LX470. The reast are junk; those two can be bettered by European competitors.

Thanks for replies about the kickdown switch. Just to clarify, are you saying there will be a difference now in going up a hill, the car will actually change to a lower gear, whereas before it would not change at all unless floored or shifted? Like "sport" mode?

Thanks, sorry to get off topic a little.

It was probably just the driver :D Did you make any changes to your suspension?

Could've been the driver. He drove like a lunatic. :eek:

Yeah, I put on Bilstein HD's and changed the bump stops to one's on the front and three's in the rear.

Sounds very nice....any pics?

You know, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I haven't taken one pic of the car since I bought it.

I don't have the same level of pride in this car that I had in my W124 chassis car. It was the older body style, and was such a clean, well-cared-for example. I also did a large number of upgrades to it that set it off from other W124's.

The only thing kind of unique about my E430 is that it has a brand new European version of the Command navigation, and it looks different from the U.S. versions that were installed as a factory option.

What's also neat is that since my navi is a Euro model, the voice is a female with a British accent. I'm told the U.S. versions have a man's voice with an American accent.

I'm debating the same... selling my 95 E420 and getting a 2001 E430 Sport.

The 420 becomes a bit of a garage queen because of its condition. I don't drive it when the roads are salty and sandy, i don't drive it to bad neighborhoods, etc.

So, contrary to common belief, I made my Porsche 944 turbo my daily driver. But, now I work in downtown Boston, I take the bus to/from work.

I'm debating which one I should keep as the weekend / evening car, or just get rid of both and get a Starmark'd E430 and just use it as an everyday/anytime/anywhere car.

Problem is, I bought my E420 thinking the same (it's just a 4-door non-500 W124).

Their is a member on MBworld or Benzworld selling a very nice 560SEC AMG. It seems to be a real AMG with all the good euro/AMG parts. The car looks pretty nice and has only 34k miles on it. I don't think it has the 6.0 though just a tweaked 5.6.

It might make a fun weekend ride.

FYI, you changed the spring-pads, not the bump-stops. The bump-stops are those celluose/spongy type of buffer that is between the strut and the strut mount, to limit travel.

:-) neil

I stand corrected. :)

In any event, the car came with 5's on the front and rear.

Changing the spring pads to 1 in the front and 3 in the rear gave it a slightly raked stance.

I met up with Ernesto "Hi-Power" a while ago, and he thought I had the car lowered.

I really do like the firmer ride quality of the Bilstein HD's. A huge improvement over the stock ride.

As I've posted before, the stock ride was more like the old Buick "Dyna-ride" than the typical Mercedes ride quality.

I think the 95 E300D was the best of all time..........PERIOD!!!!!
I am only selling mine so I can try to find one that has maybe 20K miles on the clock or less and enjoy it for the next 20 years!!! Definately rare but I saw one about 6 months ago so one is bound to come up. I'll keep on looking till I find her.

Nice to see my old thread come back to life. :)

I still hold the same opinion now as I did when I wrote the post. In fact, I am holding the same feelings even stronger about the differences between the two chassis.

I am enjoying the refinement, quiet ride, and power of my E430, but miss the unique Mercedes-life feel of the W124 chassis. Mercedes engineers seem to have distilled some of the unique qualities that all Mercedes have enjoyed out of the car.

Yeah, the W210's don't feel quite as special, but they are still a nice ride.

Hi Paul. I read your comments (and others) concerning shocks. The front-left strut on my 95 E320 is leaking and I'm going to get new fronts, both sides. 138K mostly interstate miles in the past 30K. I have read nothing but good things about the Bilsteins and so, will probably go with them. What about rear shocks? Wait? get them now? Get the same brand?

Thanks,

Bot

PS I bought the car mainly because of the nice things you used to say about your E320. I haven't any regrets and will keep this can probably another 50K or so. I'll miss the ride.

I'd only buy Bilsteins for the car, front and rear. I prefer the ride of the HD's over the comforts.

PS Yeah, I still miss my '93 300E (3.2) "E320". It was a real nice ride. There is still something very special about the W124 cars, and I still might own one again.

Using the search function (yes boys and girls, I did use it), I found several lengthy discussions concerning the Bilstein shocks. The issues that interested me most were whether to go with the sportline or OEM and the degree to which either of those choices affects ride height.

As I understand it, the OEM-style Bilsteins are somewhat firmer than the actual original equipment and that the Sportline is significantly firmer. I'm okay with either choice really, as I didn't buy the car as a racer but I do put a lot of miles in a variety of driving conditions and road surfaces. More important to me is maintaining the profile of and balance.

Comments?

I've always gone with the OEM-style and I agree with your research - they do seem slightly firmer than the original equipment shocks. I never tried the sportline versions because as I recall they calibrated for use with the shorter sportline springs. Make sure the sportline shocks are recommended for use with a non sportline spring setup.

I think the HD's slightly change the profile of the car if you keep the original bump pad height.

The profile can be changed by going with shorter bump pads.

Just thought I'd post an update on my experience with my E430.

I'd guess I've owned the car for a year and half now. I bought it with about 72,000 miles, and now how just over 85,000 miles.

Other than routine maintenance, things like oil and fluid changes, brake pads and rotors, the things I've had to replace due to failure are:

1. rack and pinion - Turns out the rack had failed at one point during the previous owner's ownership of the car, as a factory rebuilt unit had been installed. Anyway, this factory rebuilt unit failed, and degraded to a point that at times it was hard to turn the car to the left. Cha ching. $1,500.

2. radiator - The radiator developed a leak at the bottom left hand corner. Looked like a manufacturing defect. Cha ching. $500-ish.

3. crank position sensor. Just failed this past week. Car failed to start when warm. $75 for the part. Installed myself.

$2k worth of stuff in a year and a half isn't bad at all. Cheaper then the old SDL by a long shot.

Plus even though the radiator cost $500, now your good for another 10-15 years.

Yeah, but the rack and pinion failure was completely unexpected and pissed me off.

It is completely unacceptable that a 6 -7 year old Mercedes should require two (2) rack and pinions.

You know, going back to the W210 vs. W124 discussion, I sure wish my W124 had been a wagon instead of a sedan. If it was, I'd a kept it.

With the twins, the utility of a wagon would be super. Plus, I could use a wagon from time to time hauling things like top soil, plants, and other supplies from the home improvement center. It's hard to fit things in a sedan.

Also, I've been looking at run.exe and his story of buying a '93 300TE wagon and convert it into a "hammerwagon", with either a 5.6 liter M117 V8 or a 5.0 liter M119.

I'd love to build a V8 W124 wagon. If you remember, my prime motivation in selling my W124 was to have a V8. I just had to have a V8. :D

Many people say that the rack and pinion systems introduced with the W210 provide better road feel than the recirculating ball systems traditionally used with MBs.

What is your opinion about the steering types? I am sort of surprised to hear of your steering going out at such a low mileage.

Radiators should generally last 100K+ miles, so I agree that it's probably a manufacturing defect.

The crank position sensor, is more or less a wear part that does go out at various intervals. As you experienced, they can be fairly easy to replace depending on the model of the car you have.

Glad to hear you are enjoying your car. Though I like the 210s I just find them to be somewhat larger and more bloated in appearance to the 124s, which to me look more purposeful and after 20+ years yet to look all that dated.

Regards,
Gerry

I guess the rack and pinion provides better road feel than the old recirculating ball. It certainly feels more natural, in that it basically feels like every other Japanese car. I guess that is both good and bad. What I did like about the old recirculating ball is that it made the Mercedes so unique, and although different, it was easy to get used to. If I had my druthers, I wish MB would've kept the old recirc. ball. In fact, I don't think I've ever read a detailed explanation of why they went away with it.

While I like the front end design of the W210, namely the hood design with the curves and the round headlights, but overall, I'm with you. The W124's look better.

While I still enjoy the W210, it's just not the special car that a W124 is. Or a W126 for that matter. My next car, either in addition to or to replace the W210, will either be a 124.036, a W124 wagon, or W126, sedan or coupe.

W210
 

Interesting, I have a W210 E420 which has been pretty good to me, I bought it at 70,000 miles and have since put 38,000 miles in about 2.5 years. The only problems that I've had are those common to W210's.

One of the cats failed at just under 80k and the mechanic replaced with a universal (bad idea as it was under warranty then)
This cost me about $700
Then the pre cat failed on the same side and took out the one that I replaced, both this time cost me $450
Other the that, I've had the spring perch which was replaced under warranty and both front lower control arm bushing replaced by a friend who works at a MB specialist and does some work for me on the side at a very reasonable cost.

I love the way this car looks and I love the way it drives, the steering feels a lot lighter then on the w124 or any other older Mercedes that I've driven.

The only outstanding issue on the car right now is to replace the tail light cluster (not lens) as it's suffering from a common defect where it melts down at the brake light mount.

For a 9 year old car, I really cant complain.

Enrique's got that white '94 wagon he fixed up and sold a couple of years ago back again and up for sale. The guy who bought it's run it up to 190k miles, wants to sell it; not sure if it's a consignment deal or if Enrique bought it, but it's at the shop. It could badly use a detail, but generally in good shape for that age. Before he sold it in '04, I remember he replaced the evaporator and th rear suspension spheres. Just a thought..;)

The reason is very easy why they did away with recirculating ball...HIGHER COST for recirc.

You just named my current crop of cars: E500, 1995 M104-engined E320 wagon, and a 126 560SEC. For the past 3+ years I've been PERFECTLY content wiht this stable of cars, with absolutely NO desire to change anything. It's just about a perfect balance of cars -- design, exclusivity, performance, reliability, value retention, etc.

In a few weeks I will be picking up a 42,000-mile 1988 560SL (R107) for my wife as her 10th wedding anniversary present. So a 107 will be joining the stable....another one it's difficult to go wrong with.

Just wish we could use it year-around here in Portland.

Cheers,
Gerry

I have another one for you
 

Come on Gerry, you know we need to get you into another 6.3 or 6.9. A nice fixer upper :D

Sweeeeeeeeet. Those are the very three (3) cars I'd like to own.

As far as a convertible is concerned, I will own one when the kids get older, and I'm going back forth between a 107 or a Miata.

Actually I OWN a 6.3, it's a complete running car that was rolled in Oklahoma that I had shipped to Dan Smith's house a few years back. I purchased it as a complete parts car for the 6.3 that I had at the time but sold.

As soon as the M-100 Group gets its leadership act together, I'll be the first to rejoin, re-engage, and pick up where I left off. Alas, I fear for that organization...when the time comes for leadership change.....one can take the M-100 Group (leadership) out of the East Coast, but one can't take the East Coast (mentality) out of the M-100 Group.

We'll have to wait and see on that one.

Cheers,
Gerry

Interesting that you lost your rack as we also had one replaced on our 99 wagon (thank god for Starmark).

On the steering, I'd take the recirculating ball on my 300 over the rack and pinion on our wagon any day. It just feels better and adds so much to the driving experience.

Satisfaction with '95 E320 TE
 

Paul,

don't know if you me remember me from the Dallas' GTG of June '04 but I had the pleasure of meeting you, Larry Bible and several other MBShop contributors. At the time I had a '93 300D 2.5 Turbo; great car and I miss it dearly. However, on returning to Houston from that very trip to Dallas, the three children, then aged 11, 9, & 4 did no coexist well in the backseat of the sedan. My wife and I decided that we needed to separate them but we were not going to go down the SUV path. This left us with few choices. A used Volvo or Mercedes wagon. Yes, we looked at a few Volvos with the third seat option but it did not appear to be as completely integrated or as thoroughly engineered as the MB. I'll try and be brief. We found a '95 E320 TE with, at the time, just over 65K miles in pretty good shape with all of the service documents and history. With time the predictable items needed attention (evaporator, wiring harness, & head gasket) but I was able to anticipate them thanks in large part to your very thorough input to this forum. Aside from the three aforementioned items, this has been a great car for the family. It rides and handles very well, feels safe, has an abundant amount of power for our purposes. I might be biased but I rather like the looks of this model too.
Look forward to reading your continued contributions to this forum.
Stuart

Congrats on the E320 wagon. I'd love to have a W124 wagon.

Yes, remember chatting with you in the parking lot. Your car was white, wasn't it? I also recall that you are originally from Canada, right?

Thanks for the kind comments.

If I could take the steering from my '95 and put in in my '99 I'd be a lot happier. It really is the only thing I think could be improved. The recirculating ball sterring was fantastic. I think the feel was a lot better too.

Some people say the opposite about the current rack and pinion system vs. the old-school recirc ball. That they prefer the new stuff, that is.

In my opinion the older system is better, but it was more expensive to produce, so out it went in the scrap-heap of little engineering tweaks that made the Benz the Benz. Now the Benz is more like a Toyota than ever before, and the elimination of things like the recirc ball steering is a key example of why this is....

Cheers,
Gerry

I like the currant rack and pinion system's, much more precise, the old recirc ball is very umm well not precise!:D All modern cars have rack and pinion, MB had to adapt thats what the public demands.

"All modern cars have rack and pinion, MB had to adapt thats what the public demands."

Challenge. "thats what the public demands" What does that really mean?
I'm trying to picture people calling, e-mailing MB demanding rack and pinion steering. I don't think so.

As another poster stated, it's purely a cost thing. Rack and pinion is cheaper and easier to source than re-circulating ball.

It may be more precise, then again maybe not. My '92 300E Sportline is pretty precise. To me the biggest drawback to rack and pinion is reliability versus the older re-circulating ball system.

Just my contrarian nature coming through,

Steve

well now that I have an e430 I guess I can compare the w124 to the w210 as well :D
agree with the initial post. Less road feel but at the same time very lexus like. The only thing the w210 can't come close to is the isolation of cabin from outside noise that lexus does an awesome job with.

Because MB is a high end cutting edge car and must keep up to all the other high end cutting edge cars? I found the old system to be rather numb, rack's a lot better. Car & Driver agrees with me to...

Cost seems to be about the same. Old gearbox for my W126 is about $1,500 new, whats a rack for a W220 cost? I bet about that.

People are so quick to jump down MB's throat for any little reason, time march's on and things change. The Model T was a fine car too but I certainly don't want to commute to work in one.

I'm just trying to pass some time and not start working. So let's explore this cost idea.
"
Cost seems to be about the same. Old gearbox for my W126 is about $1,500 new, whats a rack for a W220 cost? I bet about that.

I have often wondered about how, and when replacement parts for older cars are manufactured. Are decisions made to produce a guesstimated number of parts or assemblies at the end of the run and put in a warehouse? I don't know. Said another way, is the $1,500 cost for the replacement actually the cost of the gearbox when it was being manufactured during the product run?
Or is it simply priced at a loss to satisfy the requirement to provide spare parts for X number of years. I really don't now.

Using basic logic, if a '95 E320 was 50K and a '07 E350 is 50K'ish, then even not adjusting for inflation , something had to give. Therefore, it may be that Rack & Pinion is cheaper simply because of the sheer volume of production around the world.

Steve

Here is a well written clip from another forum.

Rack and pinion was generally associated with "precision" many years ago; that is, until 35 years ago when Ford and GM began using it on everything from trucks to Cadillacs to Pintos. It is cheap and simple. Long ago, most european cars had rack and pinion while most american cars did not. For this reason, american car manufacturers used the rack and pinion moniker in their advertizing like some kind of "feature". Some assumed the rack and pinion gave the euro cars the edge in handling & marketers exploited this fallousy. The difference in feel & handling was due to hundreds of factors, not just steering gear technology. GM, Ford and Chrysler used recirculating ball almost exclusively before 1970 and believe me, their nasty handling had nothing to do with a lack of rack and pinion. It was the thoughtless suspension geometry with terrible bump steer & camber curves, low caster settings, high scrub radius, high center of gravity and roll center, $5 shocks, pillow soft spring rates, grossly overassisted power steering pumps and 60/40 weight distribution.

Many folks associated McPherson struts found in the 5 series with great handling too. Fact is, SLA suspension found on the Lincoln LS and Michael Schumacher's race car are inherently superior. This twist serves to illustrate that McPherson strut cars can handle better and non-rack and pinion cars can feel good....or even better, despite their inherent design.

The 540i steering has excellent on-center feel and sensitivity. As an experienced track driver, if I hear or didn't crawl under the car and look, I would not have known my 540i car does not have rack and pinion. Rack and pinion would have required BMW to raise the motor for clearance. I run my 540i regularly on large SCCA, CART and NASCAR tracks. My only complaint is the ratio is a tad slow, but I'm used to my Corvette with it's "darty", quick 13-1 steering.

My 540i has FAR better feel than my other cars with "superior" rack and pinion, including my Corvette, Lincoln, Mustang and an Aerostar 4WD minivan. The steering technology isn't going to slow you down...& the extra 2 cylinders are a welcome addition. Does that help (lol)??

Steve

Here's my last contribution on this subject. From a Google search.

Volvo, like many other European automobile manufacturers, has adopted rack and pinion steering systems for its cars since 1975. Prior to this year, however, Volvos had used recirculating ball steering.

The advantage of rack and pinion steering systems is that road feel is improved for enhanced control. Performance comes at a price, however, as the precision machining of rack and pinion steering systems require excellent lubrication. Even if high-quality lubricants are used, the presence of dirt can score bearings, damage seals and render a $1600.00 steering rack inoperative.

Recirculating ball steering systems isolate road irregularities from the driver and generally provide longer service than rack and pinion designs. Nevertheless, marginal lubrication and dirt can just as quickly destroy this mechanical component. While replacement of a recirculating ball steering box costs less than would be the case with a rack and pinion system, parts availability for vintage cars is always a stressful affair.

Cost and availability are two important reasons why your should conduct periodic maintenance on your Volvo's steering system.

End Clip

So I guess RB may actually be cheaper.

Steve

You hit the nail right on the head with this description. The W210s under damped suspension makes me sea sick, literally. I would consider a W210 if I could find a report of someone fitting HDs and seeing an improvement or comparing it to a W124, or W123 (my favorite riding chassis)...