Have been told that timing chains do not need replaced until rapping noise begins?
 

I have really been looking lately for Mercedes- mainly on the internet. I have been asking about timing chain replacements. Asking if they knew when the chains were last changed. MANY owners of some of the cars I have been inquiring about keep saying that they have chains and do not require normal replacements like cars with timing belts and do not need changing until the engine starts making a rapping noise. I think I have read otherwise here. Perhaps they are hiding something? Should I steer clear of cars where the owner states this?

I have inquired about 15 different Mercedes from 1981-1991 over the past two weeks and NONE have any idea when the chains were last changed.

Wondering- How many of you here have no idea when your chain was last changed?

I would guess the vast majority of us are on the original chain, i.e. have never had a replacement. There is no replacement interval - often a 200k or 300k mile item. But the question is very much a function of what engine you're talking about.

Depends on the engine.

I'm ready to do mine at 109,000 miles only for insurance. It is starting to rap on startup until the tensioner fills up. It is cheep insurance compared to the amount of damage that would occure if it were to let go. I already did the chain rails since I had the head off. I figure 100K miles is enough for these things but they probably will last forever (but not the rails). If its a single row 380, I would bite the bullet and change it to a double row (about $600.00 in parts).

John Roncallo

I had a 72 280se 4.5 many years ago...probably had to do the chain at about 105k.....

it rattled at startup....drove it that way for a couple of months...a tech pointed out the issue to me..and i had it done...

I was very young then... I think I paid 300 dollars to have it done...this was probably 1987...we have all learned so much since then....

if you hear rattling...get it done...if you don't, I would say you are in good shape....

Thanks for the replies. The ones I am most considering are a 91' 300SE with 180K (inline 6-cyl), 90' 300TE wagon with 220K (inline 6-cyl) and a 87' 420SEL with 250K with the 4.2L V8.

my 1989 560SEL had it done at 114k, I was told it may need to be done every 125,000 miles.

-gil

Your 300 cars both have 103 engines. These engines for sure have the most bulletproof timing chain systems of all the MB engines. I would not worry about the chains on them until the engine has to come apart for some other reason.

The V8 on the other hand is a horse of a different color. It has probably the most trouble prone timing chain system. It should be inspected closely about every 50,000 miles. The plastic guides harden and break which will jam up the chain. When that happens, bent valves are immenent. It will not make noise before this happens because it can't run after this happens.

To summarize; timing chain maintenance on the 300's involves nothing more than adequately frequent oil changes, while timing chain maintenance on the V8 should be taken very seriously.

Good luck,

Thanks Larry! So, the 300 models would be the better choice, especially considering they have lower miles? I can get the 91' 300SE (which is in VGC) for $2700. Seems to be in perfect order.

The 90' 300TE wagon can be bought for around $2000. It has some cosmetic issues- which does not concern me, but the owner said that the temperature guage will sometimes go past 1/2 way, but goes down when he turns on the heat (when it was needed). Never has went to the danger zone, but I am concerned. Water pump was replaced with no change. I was thinking perhaps cooling fans not operating properly, or a clogged radiator, like another member alluded to on my transmission thread concerning this car, but that issue with the tranny seems to be normal. Thanks again!

I should also mention that the 87' 420SEL is about $500 cheaper- which may offset the timing chain replacement. I am thinking since this car has 249K and appears to be in very well maintained order, it may be safe to assume it has been changed. Probably would be best to have it changed to be safe.

I really like the 91' 300SE, but the 420SEL is much more closer (300SE is 6 hours away and the 420SEL is 1 hour away) and the seller of the 300SE is a bit demanding- saying that he must be paid immedietly, but will hold the car for as long as needed.

The owner of the 87' 420 is just the opposite. Someone was supposed to buy the car three weeks ago, but still have not come up with the money. He said he was going to give them until the 10th to get the money and if they do not get it by then, he will sell it to me. Kinda makes me sad, because I have the cash in hand- ready to buy and they may not even come up with the money. Sure is nice of them to hold it for them though- especially for three weeks.

I have a 1988 420SEL with 118k on the clock, white with blue leather interior that I'll be posting soon - waiting on a nice A/C hose I bought on eBay. It belongs to my neighbor, who is ignorant in the ways of eBay.

Interior and engine are in great shape, as is the trans. Exterior has some rust (Northest Jersey car) as to be expected, otherwise the car is in very good shape.

Taking pictures next week when the weather gets nice.

-g

My parents have an '88 300SE and I have a '90 420SEL. I have traveled in their car many times - last year we took mine on vacation. I was amazed at how much difference there was in the 5 extra inches of leg room in the backseat. My point is - if you travel with adults in the backseat then get the 420 for the extra legroom and the extra power. I have heard many SE owners say they wish they had gotten the SEL.

I have always wanted a wagon though! :)

That extra legroom makes a BIG difference in rear seat comfort. I had a 300SD before my 560SEL and it was just a tad tight for my family of 5. No complaints now!

-g

just remember that an "S" in a MB nameplate stands for 'Spensive when it comes to repairs.

Inted heck with the Lambo's now changing the timing belt on a Ferrari! :eek: That is a major and expensive job!

If spending $1k on a timing chain bothers you that much then maybe MB's are not the right car for you. Off the top of my head:
M103's seem to have weak valve stem seals and burn oil.
Did they blow the head gaskets or were those the M104's?
At this point in the game how solid is the trans? $1,500
A 250k mile W126 will need some front end work if it hasn't been done.


Interior and paint work is the most expensive thats what I would shop for.

119 motor timing chain
 

I just bought a '92 400e (119.975)with 97K on the clock. I have read that the timing chain guides are a ~150K mile maintenance item. Does the chain need replaced, or just the guide/tensioners? I have also read that it's about a ~$2K repair bill. I am not hearing anything from the engine at this point, but I want to be aware of impending disaster/repair bill.

From the previous post, doing the guide and tensioner doesn't look like that big a deal, mabye it's a different engine due to earlier vintage? Any ideas how long it would take a mechanic to check it? Can it be checked without major teardown? Larry indicated a 50K mile check. Is this something that would be checked in the normal "used car checkout" job?

Any inputs would be appreciated. Cheers!

The chains on the M119's and newer V8's should last close to forever. Only the old M117/116's should be done every 100k-125k or so.

400e timing chain
 

I had to do the head on my 300e M103.983 engine at 120K due to valve guide wear. Mechanic said worst cylinder taper of the 6 was .003, .015 allowable. He did guides and chain while he had it torn down.

I understand the '92 400e has the 119.975 engine, is this the one that you have to watch the guides on, or was it the earlier v-8's? I am not expecting any trouble at 97K, but assumed from previous posts that the guides/chain had to be done at 150-180K. I realize it is mechanical, and everything I own seems to die at 1/2 of expected life, but was looking for "usually" type indicators.

Thanks!

Opinions differ on whether to prophylactically replace the chain on a 119 motor. My mechanic, and Stu Ritter, both say not to worry until you hear a slapping or rapping noise at startup -- as soon as you do, though, you shut down the engine and replace the chain + guides.

As I understand it, the 119 is less prone to chain/guide failures than earlier V8s as the chain makes larger-radius turns than older V8s.

For what it's worth, I have 155k miles on mine and still have the original chain; I am planning to take my chances and wait for the chain to get noisy.

Most MB engine experts will tell you that 10 years and/or 100K miles is a good timetable for replacing the timing chains and related parts. The chains seldom break though they do stretch a bit. However the plastic guide rail pieces become brittle with age...and if they break then you are looking at major damage to the engine if the plastic piece falls into the chain and the chain jumps time.

I think a real expert will tell you that it's a function of which motor.

M116/117's I change every 100K. M119's seem happy to 150+ but I wouldn't take it past 200K. M103's I Like to see those changed by 150. All my gassers (Except the V12 have had their chains/tensioner/rails changed.

IMHO it's Cheap insurance..


Jonathan

I can actually get a chain replacement on a V8 Mercedes of this vintage at a local shop that specializes in Mercedes for about $400-$500 so that does not concern me. That was the price I was quoted (parts and labor) when I was considering the local 85' 500SEL. I am assuming that the 87' 4.2 engine would be about the same?

The common oil burning problem mentioned about the inline 3.0L 6-cylinder does concern me though and perhaps I should steer clear of the 90' 300TE and the 91' 300SD all together- even though my uncle's 90 300TE wagon with 160K is still in perfect running order. I think it is all in how a car is maintained/treated.

The tranny in the local 87' 420SEL for $2200 is solid- perfect shifts. It was a 1-owner, well maintained, garage kept car. The only downfall as mentioned is that it has 249K.

I recently did this job - chain,tensioner, upper guides, etc (86 560, 87.5Kmi) - and I can't say what condition the chain was in, but my tensioner was very clearly not doing what it was supposed to do - hold oil pressure. It didn't have nearly the "spring" in it either as the new one did (I think the spring is in there for "insurance"). I suspect that the "catastrophe" occurs when you start the engine without oil pressure in the tensioner, and the spring finally becomes to weak to hold things together during the critical time before the engine oil pressure comes up.

The guides were brown through and through (I dug into one to see how far the brown color was). I suspect that this material is nylon, which is strong, but does contain moisture - moisture that probably gets replaced with oil over time, weakening it (where the brown color comes from, probably).

My car was, and is, kept up very well (MB service till I bought it) with regular oil changes, and all scheduled services. I don't think any amount of normal scheduled maintenance will forestall the ravages of time...

86560SEL name any car on the market and I will find a chronic problem that model has. Nothing is perfect.

I think the engines that MB made that are the closest to perfect (read no major problem areas) are:
M119 oil tubes in the heads can blow the caps off cheap fix
M112 V6 Harmonic balancer currently being recalled
M113 can't think of one.

deanyel said: I think a real expert will tell you that it's a function of which motor.
_________________________________________________________________
You sir are correct. I should have said the 100K/10 year chain updates aply to the MB V-8s......420/560, etc.

Are you speaking of new cars or used (older) cars?


I really want the 87 420SEL, but that mileage concerns me. Yes, it is a well maintained, 1-owner car, but since the guy that bought it from the original owner does not know when the timing chain/tensioners were changed, if I did buy it, I guess I might as well have it replaced. I just wish there was an easier way to tell.

I did not mean to let on that all cars are perfect, but some are close as far as reliability.

Well the M119 V8 first came to the states in 1992 in the e and s class. W124 and W140.

The M112's first year was 1998 in the W210, afaik.
Same for the M113 both very trouble free motors.

If the body and interior are in good shape go for it. Age is just as bad as mileage and these are all old cars by now.

I know from experience it's hazardous to make statements like this - there's always someone correcting you. The 119 motor actually started in the 1990 500SL. Now someone will probably correct me.

I figured someone would, I don't no much about the SL's so I didn't know that.

Just read AFAIK in front of that post. :D

Well, where do the 5-cyl diesel engines stand when it comes to the timing chains? Is it critical for them as well, like the V8 models, or are they more like the I-6 models when it comes to this?

To update on this old thread I started last summer, I ended up buying a 1985 380SE. From what I have learned on the forums here, this is one of the engines where the chain/tensioner/rail replacement is critical. It is my understanding that a 84-85' 3.8L V8 has been upgraded to the double chain, as opposed to the single chain on the early 80s 3.8L.

Unfortunately, the previous owner (which was the 2nd owner) does not know if or when any of this had been replaced. The car had 220K when he bought it in 2000 from the original owner. He drove to car to its current mileage @ 263K. I have started the car when cold and I do not hear any noise and the oil pressure is high. I am assuming that with 263,800 miles, that it has been changed at least once, or else this engine would be history? What is the highest miles on the original chain you have heard of on a W126 V8? I wish there was some way I could find out from the original owner to see if it ever was changed. One would think that if they bought this car new and kept it for 20 years and put 220K that they would have surely changed the chain, or would they? :anxious: :D Did they maintain this car well, or did they let everything go? As far as the appearance of the car, as well as the running, it appears to have been well maintained and garage kept, but we may never know for certain.

I have phoned two of the three known local Mercedes independent repair shops to get an estimate on a chain and tensioner. One place quoted me $520.00 and the other said between $600-$700 (which included changing the upper rails). I do not know if the $520 quote included that or not. I did not know anything about those at the time. I am going to call the last place tomorrow to get a quote from them.

It is a perfect running car and aside from two windows, everything is in perfect working order and it is 100% rust free with excellent interior. I only paid $1000. for it, so I think I would still be doing fine if I paid $500 for the replacement.

So, if this was YOUR car, would you change it right away, or would I be taking too much of a risk driving for a few months on the current chain/tensioner/rail? It may indeed still be fine, but then again, it may be in the brink of disaster. I know that if something breaks, it would be a $3000+ repair, which in that case, I would have to salvage the car. It is one of those mysteries. I know everyone is thinking, would you rather pay $500-550 now, or $3000 later?

One of the reasons I hesitate is that the car runs so well. I hate the thoughts of them dismantling the car for this. I know several things have to come off. I keep thinking what if they mess something up? All three are certified professionals for Mercedes repairs, but I am still concerned about what if something gets broken and I have to shell out more $$$. I guess I would have to check with each individual shop to see how they work.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted post this here. :)

Thanks for any input.

Bite the bullet..
 

,,.at least have the chain guides examined - those are the problem, not the chain itself.

As Jonathan posted last summer, it is cheap insurance to replace the upper guides, chain and tensioner. Make sure they do the oil tubes while they are in there.

I must admit though, that the probable $750 or so to have it done seems out of whack with your purchase price. $1000 is almost like buying a "disposable, single use" item :D At that price, you have to assume you must spend some dinero on presumably deferred maintenance if you don't have the records.

One place quoted me $520.00 and the other said between $600-$700 (which included changing the upper rails).
_________________________________________________________________
Those are pretty good price quotes. If you plan to keep the car you should go ahead and do the replacement. The chains hardly ever break. The problem comes with the plastic guides/rails. They become brittle over the years and if you do get any chain slap from a loose chain/tensioner the slap will break the plastic and it falls into the chain, the chain jumps time.....then you have a major engine failure.

If it were my car I would have the needed parts on order and probably do the job in the next 2-3 weeks. I'd have the best shop do it, not the cheapest.

Thanks guys. I keep hearing "chain guides" and "upper rails". Are these two totally different things? If so, do I need to have the following checked/replaced:
chain, tensioner, rails, and guides?

The $525 quote was only when I asked about replacement for chain and tensioner. I am assuming it would also consider the other things involved with this chain replacement. I am going to phone back tomorrow and find out.

The lower quote was from a very reputable shop from what I am told. I have not heard a lot about the other two mentioned.

There used to be someone here on the forum that lived in the same area as I do and they mentioned these shops before, but I cannot find it on the search. I will try again.

I guess I will definitely at least have it checked out within a couple of weeks. If I do go ahead and drive it, would it be best that I drive at low speeds, or does that not make a difference? I also want to get the oil changed. Would it be best to get this done after the service?

Thanks again!

86 560SEL said: do I need to have the following checked/replaced:
chain, tensioner, rails, and guides?
_____________________________________________________________
You should replace everything once you have opened up the engine...the aditional cost is very low to do the complete job. The $700 estimate you mentioned probably includes everything....the lower estimate probably does not.

Thanks. I am going to double check on that and have it done ASAP.

I was browsing e-bay for other 85' Mercedes and discovered this 85' 380SE. Wouldn't you know it - something with the timing chain/tensioner/rails went bad. This one has a hole in the left valvecover. :eek: (see photo of that cars engine) It has 336K. I wonder if anything had ever been changed on it.


Scary to say the least.

Must have happend at higher speeds. Usualy when the fail on start up the engine just stops.

I have seen that happen several times. Very scary.

A good MB independent can tell you if the chain and guides have been replaced by looking at them. The guides will be dark brown if it has been a while since they have been replaced.

You might get some of the electrical connector things (plastic) and have them on hand just in case. They are so brittle and will break when disconnected from items before removal. They are cheap (around $2 apiece from the dealer) and are well worth the investment. If the valve cover gaskets are brittle or leaking - may as well get those while you are at it. Don't forget the brass crush washers.

You may as well have them change the coolant while they are at it. Be sure to use MB or Zerex G :)

This is fairly common, the chain rips the valve cover, there isn't much space there and the covers are thin. While collecting valve covers to polish, I found several cracked LH covers (right at the bulge for the gear) - and never a cracked right!

Thanks. I called the last shop that I needed to call. He said he could not give an exact estimate without looking at the car, but it would be "big bucks" if it needed chain, tensioner, rails and guides. I am guessing he may refer to $500-$700. as big bucks? Hopefully he was not referring to $1000 or more. This shop is supposed to have 38 years experience on Mercedes repair. He said that more than likely @ this age and mileage that it has been changed and "upgraded" to a "double roller". I told him it was a 85' 380SE. He is not referring to it having a double chain is he, because it is my understanding that it came with a double chain in 85'.

He said he could check it to see if it has been changed for $65. He asked if the car was making any noise or anything that made me think it needed changed. He seemed to act like it was not a big deal. I just told him that the car had 263K, was 20 years old and I had no clue as to when or even if it had ever been changed.

I think I will call the other shops back to get more details.

It scares me that he has been a MB mechanic for 38 years and does not know that the '84-'85 380 model cars came with a double row chain. I think I would shop around more for someone to do your work. $65 is a lot to take off one valve cover to see if the timing chain is a double chain. Sounds to me like he wanted to make a fast $65 - if he is knowledgeable. If it is an honest mistake then maybe he is slipping or forgetful. Either way, I think I would check out another shop.

Thanks. Yeah, it bothered me too! I called the other shop "Benz Haus", that I KNOW has been in business for many years and has a good reputation. I spoke to the secretary initially and she said the guides were only about $3.00 each. She said the labor on changing the rails was much more expensive to replace. I did not know that extra cost or work about the upper rails. I was thinking it was going to be only a minimal increase in the price, obviously a lot more work is involved.

I wanted to know the cost of replacement on that and she transferred me to one of the mechanics. He said he has been working on these cars for 15 years. He said personally that unless it was making a noise then he would not change the chain or the tensioner @ this time. He said I should still try to obtain some of some service records from the original owner, but obviously I do not even know who that is.

I told him I was unsure about the rails or guides. He said it was not as much as a concern as the chain/tensioner. He said if it broke, it was not as high of a chance of engine damage, as if it was the chain/tensioner. He said if the chain or tensioner broke, then it was severe engine damage, which I knew.

I know there is a possibility that I may be sorry down the road if I do not change it right away.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that when I was looking under the hood yesterday, I noticed that the driverside valve cover looks to have been replaced in the past, as there is NO oil residue whatsoever on that valvecover, whereas there is minor seepage on the back of the passenger side cover. When the chain is replaced, does the driverside valve cover have to be removed? I am wondering if this "newer looking" valvecover gasket may be a sign of a timing chain replacement. It has 263K, so I imagine that it was changed at least once, or it would be rattling like crazy by now?

Here is a photo I took yesterday of that area.

Thanks in advance for any input.