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  #1  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:10 PM
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87 300e with water in the oil

87 300e with water in the oil and I want some advise..
1. are there any special tools that i will need.?


the car has 200k miles and i would like to just change the head gasket
but any advise?


Can i do a in car rebuild....? Is it possible to do this?


Any advise greatly appreciated?
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  #2  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:48 PM
WANT '71 280SEL's Avatar
I'll Go Upside Your Head!
 
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Location: Dallas, TX
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You can pull the head with the engine in the car, yes. I believe that's what you were talking about the in car rebuild? Anyways, while you have the head off you'll want to do valve guides and seals. These engines tend to need them by now. I'm surprised if yours isn't burning any oil? Basically you want to take the head to a machine shop and have them give it a full valve job which would entail grinding the valves, replacing the seals, and installing new guides.

About special tools, you'll need the large torx socket to fit the cylinder head bolts. If you do a search you should be able to find it. I've never done this job but it's pretty much the same for all MBs in the fact that they take the large torx socket. You can get the tool at Sears or similar store. You may have to replace the cylinder head bolts as they're stretch bolts and are only good once or twice, not sure on that one. You may be able to reuse them if you measure them and they're within spec.

You shouldn't be driving the car, you know that right? Water/coolant isn't a good lubricant. Plus, if allowed to sit long enough to can rust the inside of the engine solid, but that would take a lot of time though it's been known to happen depending on the severity of the leak.

Thanks
David
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2000 Honda Accord V6 137k miles

1972 300SEL 4.5 98k miles

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  #3  
Old 06-30-2005, 07:52 PM
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car runs great

the car is running great...
my daugher drives it.......

I will get the head bolts and valve guide seals....

is it possible to remove the oil pan and pop the pistons up and
replace rings and bearings.
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2005, 08:00 PM
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With only 200k miles, leave the bottom end alone. When you get the cylinder head, I think the shop may doi the valve seals. I know it can be done pretty easily but you would want to wait for them to be done with their machining etc. so as to not harm the new seals. The seals will be especially easy with the head on bench since you won't have to mess with compressed air.

Regarding the head bolts. I think the bolts are good for two uses, so you're probably good there.

I think the oil pan would be a pain to drop on those as they have the one-piece pan and the engine would have to be jacked up, etc. to get the pan out. Trust me, I just finished replacing the pan on my SDL (both 103 and 603 are 3.0 liter L6 engines) and you don't want to bother the pan. I've never heard of a 300E needing bottom end work unless run out of oil or severely neglected. If you belong here, most likely you care enough to at least change the oil every once in awhile or have it done.

Thanks
David
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2000 Honda Accord V6 137k miles

1972 300SEL 4.5 98k miles

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  #5  
Old 06-30-2005, 08:03 PM
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One more thing, don't short change yourself on the valve job. Get it all done while it's there. The 103 engines tend to need the valve work at your mileage so you'll be getting it done in one whack. Before you start you may want to scope out a machine shop so that they'll have valve guides for it that way the shop won't be waiting a week for parts. I highly doubt that you'll need any valves replaced so a grind, seals, and guides should do it.

You're pretty fortunate that from what I've seen of my dad's 300E, it doesn't appear to be a difficult job to R&R the head. Let us know how it goes.

Thanks Again
David
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  #6  
Old 06-30-2005, 08:43 PM
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ok

how much should reworking the head cost me...
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  #7  
Old 06-30-2005, 09:01 PM
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I've never had it done before but my guess would be no more than $200 maybe? I have no idea. I don't think it's too much as they just go right through them. You should be able to call a couple places and they give you a rounded estimate.

Thanks
David
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  #8  
Old 06-30-2005, 09:21 PM
LarryBible
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With water in the oil it could very well be that the head is corroded through rather than the head gasket leaking so MAKE SURE that the shop pressure tests the head. It's still the same job except the shop will have to weld up the head BTDT. The previous owner of my car had used green antifreeze and not changed it very often.

As an earlier poster said, the likelihood of needing anything below the head gasket is almost nil. I fully expect that you will still see crosshatch on the cylinder when you get the head off. If for some reason it DOES not attention in the bottom the manual says you can raise the engine and get the pan off but I doubt that any one here has ever had to do it.

There are two methods for pulling the head; leave the manifold on the head and pull the whole shootin' match or disconnect the manifold from the head and leave it in place. With the manifold off the head is as light as a feather and easy to handle. Additionally you don't have to take off near as many vacuum and electrical connections which are old and brittle by this time. You have to get underneath on the drivers side with a long extension for a few of the intake bolts but I found them quite accessible. I wouldn't even think of leaving the manifold on the head having done it.

You will also have to wrestle a little with the exhaust manifolds. A long extension from underneath will get the pipes loose and the nuts will come off the studs on the head pretty easy since they are a bronze material. You have to loosen some pipe brackets underneath and wrestle to get the head over the studs, but it is the thing to do. I have seen someone here post that they pulled the studs and used bolts. In my experience using steel bolts in an aluminum head is a huge mistake due to the dissimilar metals. I would always stay with the studs and just wrestle it in place.

Since there is water in the oil. When you go back together with it, get some cheap oil and some cheap filters. When I had mine apart I had to go to Europe for three weeks in the middle of the job and there was light surface rust but it hasn't hurt anything. The oil looked like chocolate milk. When I first started it I had it filled with the cheap oil and a cheap filter. I ran it about 10 minutes and drained that oil and changed the filter. I then drove it down the road about two miles and back. I drained that oil and changed that filter and it was starting to clear up. I changed oil and filter again and drove it to the office and back and then put my regular oil and a good filter on and started back on regular oil change interval.

Make sure you loosen the tensioner before removing the chain from the cam gear and before putting it back together push the ratcheting plunger all the way through and start it through again so that you have slack when putting the chain back in place.

Also, it is VERY important to be careful in placing the rocker arm stands all in place and tighten them down evenly start on one end and tighten all the bolts one turn all the way down and then start back the other way. If you try to tighten one stand all at once you can strip bolt holes in the head and cause all sorts of trouble.

When you do the head replace the guides as well as the seals. Don't even think about not replacing the guides.

Best of luck and post if you need help as you go,
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  #9  
Old 06-30-2005, 10:28 PM
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water

larry i know i have oil in my water but i am not sure about water in the oil
but it probably goes both ways....


I am getting excited about this... any tool recommendations...
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  #10  
Old 06-30-2005, 11:52 PM
2002 E320 4matic
 
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get new head bolts

Get new head bolts instead of re-using.
With all that work and expense, why risk it?
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  #11  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:03 AM
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gasket

do i put the gaskets on dry or do i use some type of sealer...

any recomendations.
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  #12  
Old 07-01-2005, 12:30 AM
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It's been discussed before. Put the gasket on dry.

Thanks
David
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2000 Honda Accord V6 137k miles

1972 300SEL 4.5 98k miles

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  #13  
Old 07-01-2005, 08:53 AM
LarryBible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farghenbenzer
Get new head bolts instead of re-using.
With all that work and expense, why risk it?
One should not risk it and there's no reason to. Simply measure the bolts length with a vernier or dial caliper. If the engine has never been apart before they will for sure be in spec, but don't take the risk.

As long as they are not over length, there is no risk whatever.

blueranger,

I'm sorry, I am in a bad habit of skimming these posts quickly. I thought you meant coolant in oil, not oil in coolant. I would go to a radiator shop and have them pressure test the cooling system first and tell you what they think.

It might be a leaky atf cooler or whatever. They usually don't charge to do this.

Good luck,
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2005, 12:12 AM
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well here is an update.

I got the head off.... and the hardest part was the bottom bolts on the
intake... but i took it off... then the next most difficult thing was the
timing chain guide on the drivers side... i broke it...

now i am going to try to put a new one one without removing the radiator and front lower timing chain cover... can it be done.?

the went to a couple of machine shops and i was quoted some
terrible prices but napa quoted me 180 bucks.. they did a vavle job,
surfaced and replaced the seals....

i did not do the guides... if I had know more in the begining of this thread i would have.... sorry larry...



now i need some installation instructions...
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2005, 08:28 AM
LarryBible
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First of all, make SURE that the machine shop PRESSURE TESTS the head to ensure that there is no corrosion damage. Frankly I am worried about your $180 valve job. This probably does not include enough money to replace the valve guides and I would not even DREAM of going to all this work on a 103 engine without replacing the valve guides.

As far as the timing chain guide goes, I have not replaced it. You must have tried to leave the top timing gear on the chain. That's the only way I can think of that would have broken it. Anyway, I would think that if you pulled the pin while somehow holding onto what's left of the guide, you could get it out, then lower the new guide in place and push the pin back in. Do you know how to pull a chain guide pin?

Congrats on your work so far.

Good luck,
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