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  #1  
Old 07-30-2005, 02:12 PM
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help- tranny destroyed? Please advise...

Was driving our 87 190d with euro 4spd tranny (716.213?) home from the ac shop, and a guy pulled out into my lane (common here). I slammed on the brakes to avoid hitting him, and put in the clutch, downshifting into 2nd. When I let out the clutch, there was a weird metal to metal scraping sound, and then a clunking/clanking and banging noise that could it be felt in the gearshift lever. The gearshift also became very stiff. I immediately pulled over and looked underneath-(couldn't see much), but didn't see fluid anywhere, or anything dragging.

The noise is NOT engine-speed dependent. I revved it parked- and it did not return without driving. It IS related to the car's forward movement though. Pulling away from a stop in first it does not return until around 1800 rpm, and then the clanking, scraping and clunking kicks in. If I put in the clutch it continues. If I take it out of gear and roll forward at 10+mph in neutral, it continues. If I yell profanites.... well, you know. I can't get it to shift into 3rd or 4th, it would only move between 1st and 2nd, and the shifter is "stiff", . At the shop, I put it in reverse to move it, and had a hell of a time getting it back into 1st. It did finally go into gear after working at it.

Here's a strange thing- I went over a bump at one point while driving back to the shop, and the clunking, banging, and scraping went away for a long while-as if something that had been loose was cleared from a rotating object. It did return right before I got to the shop, but it seemed strange that the bump would have made it go away for awhile.

Does anybody know what this is?

The shop will "look at it monday" but any pointers would be appreciated. I'm hoping it's not a bad tranny, but if you guys think it is, do you know where I could get a tranny? I have the euro 4 spd gearbox, should I swap in a 5spd to the 601.911 or does anyone know where I can get a replacement?

Please email or post- any help is appreciated. I'll go ahead and post this to several forums and see what comes up. Thank you for any help you could offer- John

Last edited by satyr; 07-30-2005 at 02:18 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-30-2005, 02:24 PM
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trans

Hi I would have the tech look at the selector forks before you go changing the trans,sounds like you bent one which could make it half in and out of another gear and or counter shaft gear.joeym
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  #3  
Old 07-30-2005, 06:50 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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ditto the above

then the second question: euro trannys shouldnt be anydifferent from us. a four or five speed if you can find one should work just fine. the fiver may be longer though so if you do try to get the ds too and perhaps the cross member.

i have no direct experience with your model but do with the 123.

tom w
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual. It still needs upholstery redone...I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #4  
Old 07-31-2005, 12:12 AM
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I had something similar happen to my 86 300E after being rear-ended. I went to pull it off the road and suddenly heard this clanking, banging sound that I, too, could feel through the shift knob, even though it's an automatic. Similarly, after backing up and pulling into a parking lot it went away, for a short while.

Turned out that the impact tore loose the front flex disk and it was spinning out of round and out of balance whenever the car was in motion. Backing it up apparently realigned it temporarily, but as soon as a little bit of torque was applied the banging was back.

Perhaps you let the clutch back out a little too rapidly and in trying to spin up the engine the force was too great and the flex disk let go. How many miles are on it? Have the shop get it onto a lift and check the condition of the flex disk(s) and see whether or not the driveshaft spins true.

The front disk is a bit of a pain to replace and from what I understand is the one most likely to wear out first. Mine let go at a little over 112k mi. Don't know if it was the original but I suspect it was. On a manual trans car I would expect it would have a shorter lifespan than on an auto.

Hope this helps,

Gary
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  #5  
Old 07-31-2005, 11:39 PM
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Flex Disk? Hadn't thought of that. That also sounds like it is a possibility- but would something like that limit the movement of the gear selector? A forum-member in the UK suggested the "propeller shaft" rubbing against the gear selector linkage somehow..? Is that possible if the flex disk went out and now the prop-shaft is rubbing against the shifter linkage? (I can't even crawl under it to see if that's possible since it's at the shop now...)
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  #6  
Old 08-01-2005, 12:16 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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sorry

but what is a flex disc in a stick car?

tom w
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual. It still needs upholstery redone...I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #7  
Old 08-01-2005, 01:17 AM
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I don't know for sure that the manual trans cars use them, but it's simply a shock absorber for the driveline and a stick, having a more solid connection, I think would need one even more than the auto trans. I just checked the FastLane listing for an 87 190D and it lists flex disks front and rear without any caveat about "for automatic trans only" or anything like that, so I figure satyr's car probably uses them.

Gary
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  #8  
Old 08-01-2005, 03:28 PM
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Haven't heard from the shop. Can anybody think of anything else it could be? Thanks- J
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  #9  
Old 08-01-2005, 03:40 PM
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I vote bad universal joint.
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  #10  
Old 08-01-2005, 03:42 PM
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Check all your motor/differential/muffler mounts. They may have changed and things may be misaligned.
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  #11  
Old 08-01-2005, 03:50 PM
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Flex disc for sure.
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  #12  
Old 08-01-2005, 11:34 PM
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Could a bad flex disc affect the shifting linkage? What do you guys think? (still haven't heard from the shop...) -J
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  #13  
Old 08-01-2005, 11:39 PM
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Oh- and um.... I just remembered one of the guys at the shop said that they knocked a vacuum line loose when they worked on the ac- so it wouldn't stop running even though the key was turned "off." He said they had to "pop" the clutch with it in gear, while standing on the brakes to shut her down. They later found the loose hose and reconnected it.

So- Could that have caused the flex disc to go, AND could it also affect the shifter linkage? -J
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  #14  
Old 08-02-2005, 12:31 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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i am

thinking they call a flex disc what i call a rubber donut, maybe.

tom w
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual. It still needs upholstery redone...I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #15  
Old 08-02-2005, 03:56 AM
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"Poopping" the clutch to stop the engine could definitely damage an older flex disk. That's a lot of mass and inertia to sudenly bring to a halt. They could have easily done it by simply blocking the air intake. Would've taken a few seconds longer, but wouldn't damage anything. I think they might owe you a freebie repair. As to the linkage, when mine went out it did affect the shift linkage, as I recall. I believe it bent something in the linkage so that the shift lever didn't sit properly in the detent in the shift gate when in the appropriate gear. It would make sense that if the flex disk/driveshaft assembly was wonky and spinning out of round, both the driveshaft and trans tailpiece would be trying to rotate counter to each other (Newton's Third Law). That would certainly account for the banging noise and the scraping. There isn't much clearance on the sides or above the trans as I recall and perhaps something got moved or bent out of place.

Gary
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