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  #16  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:41 PM
3 MB's and counting!
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
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W126- soft and firm over bumps but WAY too much body roll on turns.

W202-203 both the exact same feel and is just right but sometimes harsh on bumps.

W140- I dont own one (i wish) but when I did drive them it had to be the BEST car I have been or driven when going over bumps and dips in the road. It just soaks them up.

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  #17  
Old 12-27-2005, 07:54 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern Louisiana
Posts: 481
Ride?

1986 420SEL: I consider it fairly soft: smooth, yet firm enough to be controlled. It is somewhat sensitive to road harshness, especially in front. The harshness from tar strips, etc., seems to diminish at higher speeds.
After all, Germans believe that, if you want a smooth ride, build smooth roads. The ride is beautiful on a smooth, asphalt road.
A lot of the ride perception is in the front seat springs; also the sensation of leaning in turns. The seats let your body tilt, so you have to hang on with your upper body, arms, etc. Definately different.
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  #18  
Old 12-27-2005, 09:10 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,272
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS 190 2.6
Maybe you folks can help me decide on this. I just recently got the new to me 190 emmisions complient and have started driving it. It runs great but definitely needs new(or Better) shocks. I have always liked a sporty ride but as I get older am looking for more comfort without too much loss of handeling.
Every one here seems to favor the bilstiens but I am unsure as to whether to go with the HDs or the comforts. I am sure the current shocks are original (100,000 miles) and they are too soft for sure. I am hopeing new shocks tires and an alignment will improve the handleing and maybe the ride to. Yes I know, want my cake and eat it too, thats why I bought a MB. Any replies would be appreciated.
As a rule, deCarbon (high pressure) shocks maintain their damping characteristics until end of life, which is usually signaled by a large oil leak. The Bilstein "Comfort Shocks" are equivalent to the OE shocks, and the combination of ride frequency provided by the springs, suspension travel, and well tuned OE damping provides most Mercs with exceptional control on just about any kind of road up to and including very aggressive driving.

The only environment when my 190 was ill-suited was hot lapping the big 2.5 mile Willow Springs track. It exhibited excess understeer (busted two Michelin 205/60VR-15 XGTVs on the left front in Turn two which is a long 80 MPH sweeper), too much roll, and inadequate rebound damping. Compared to my Cosworth Vega (DOT legal racing tires, bigger bars, adjustable shocks, two degrees negative front camber) and '91 MR2 (DOT legal racing tires and alignment tuning only) it was a PIG, but a big race track represents an EXTREME driving environment that few will ever experience.

Notwithstanding the above, I drive, sometimes very aggressively, on a lot of two-lane back roads on trips to Northern CA, some of which are very bumpy, and in this driving environment nothing can touch this car. Some of these roads are literally one lane with a lot of tight corners, dips and dives, and stiff springs or limited suspension travel will flat out NOT WORK on these kinds of roads.

These are not sports cars, and it may be argueable if they are sports sedans, but for gobbling up endless miles of interstate highways or bumpy, dippy, wavey two lane back roads, there is no better solution, especially if you equip them with the highest performance tires that are available as I have, though they do increase harshness. I don't think a better "touring car" has been built to this day!

I had to replace the RF OE shock (BIG leak - lost all the oil) about ten years ago. The rest are fine, but if I ever need to replacement them, I will go with the Bilstein Comforts as I did on the RF that needed replacement.

Duke
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  #19  
Old 12-28-2005, 09:46 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 29
RE new shocks

Thanks Duke that was the type analysis I need. Although my car needs an alignment and new tires as well I agree the car is a great combination of ride and handeling and responds very well to driver inputs. It really is a lot of fun after 10 years in a front drive Nissan! I am not sure what tires I am going to get, I have been running Yokahama AVS db for my last two sets, prior to that Michelin Pilots and the Yokos are the best combo of wet/dry handeling, ride comfort and low noise of any tire I have tried in the last 30 years. Unfortunately I am not sure the come in a size that will fit this car. Hopefully some one can advise me here as well. Some where I read a post that the Bilstiens comforts are about 15% stiffer than oe, any truth to that?
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  #20  
Old 12-28-2005, 11:13 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Southern California
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I called a Bilstein USA executive I met at Starfest, and he said the comfort shocks are the same as OE, and my experience with the replacement is that he was correct.

The OE tire size is 185/65VR-15 (849 revs/mile, 1201 pounds max load), and you can replace with 195/60; 205/55 is also about the same revs per mile and load capacity, but the OE 6.0" wheels are a bit narrow for this size, which is why I installed them on 6.5" 300E wheels, and I highly recommend this combination if you want the most grip. The best tires are "summer high performance" type with low wear ratings, but I'm not sure if such are currently available in 60-series profiles. Most 60-series are "all-season" or "touring" with tread design and compounding that will not provide the same dry or wet grip as a "summer high performance" type in mild to warm weather, but they have better grip at below freezing temperatures and better snow traction. You have to look at both make/model of tire since all the major manufacturers offer tires in all categories. Look at the tread design, wear rating, max load capacity, and revs/mile. All this data is on-line at The Tire Rack and tire manufacturers' web sites.

For example the Dunlop Sport 8000s on my car have large tread blocks with no sipping and generous circumferential and lateral grooving, which is the tipoff of a summer high performance tire. Also, the wear rating is 200, which is relatively low, but they should deliver about 30K miles of normal driving. Tires with wear ratings above 300 will not have the level of grip the Sport 8000 provides.

Since the 2.6 is fairly front heavy, they understeer more than 2.3s, and to mitigate this characteristic I set the front caster and camber to the limit of their adjustement to maximize negative camber and maximize positive caster, equal on both sides, which yielded about -3/4 deg. camber and +10.5 deg. caster.

Steering response is much better with less understeer, and at the limit I can even induce some oversteer, but it's very controlable, and tire wear is even.

Duke
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  #21  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:38 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 29
wheels and tires

Duke I like the idea of going to a set of 205/55s and am looking at a couple of used sets of 300e wheels on ebay, what offset should I be looking for?
conversly what do you think of going to a 16 inch wheel. I am concerned the ride would be to harsh. Anyone with an opinion please chime in, the more opinions the better. I just hope I can find a good alignment tech here in Nashville.
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  #22  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:52 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Madison, Wis.
Posts: 223
In comparison to my old Buick, I would say that the C230 ride is definitely on the firm side. I like it better than the couch feeling as it seems to be better on my back. It also seems much more stable on the road and not apt to shift around when going over bumps or small potholes.
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  #23  
Old 12-28-2005, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS 190 2.6
Duke I like the idea of going to a set of 205/55s and am looking at a couple of used sets of 300e wheels on ebay, what offset should I be looking for?
conversly what do you think of going to a 16 inch wheel. I am concerned the ride would be to harsh. Anyone with an opinion please chime in, the more opinions the better. I just hope I can find a good alignment tech here in Nashville.
The 6.5x15 30OE wheels, both the early forged versions and later cast versions (which look more like the OE 15" 190E wheels) all have 49 mm offset, same as the 6x15 190E wheels, so no change if you install 6.5" 300E wheels. You should ask the seller to photograph the size that is molded into the back of the wheel. Real 300E (base model) wheels are 6.5 x 15 49ET. Seven inch 16V/Sportline wheels have 44 mm offset and 300E Sportline seven inch wheels have offsets different than 49mm, but I'm not sure what they are. Stick with the common 6.5x15 300E wheels.

Sixteen inch wheels of 6.5-7" width with the same offset would also be okay with 205/55R-16s. This setup would actually be better for speedo accuracy because they are closer to the OE tire revs per mile at about 845 rev/mile than 205/55R-15s which run about 875 revs/mile.

My previous tires on the 300E wheels were Michelin 205/60VR-15 XGTVs, which are shorter (855 revs/mi) than most tires of this size, but taller than 205/55R-15s. With this setup there was a little interference with the fender lip at the front of the wheelwell and the bumper surround, below. I added a 1/32" washer to each bumper surround bolt bracket to push them out and filed just a bit off the fender lip above the bumper surround. This will also probably occur with 205/55R-16s on 49mm offset wheels. If wheel offset is less than 49mm the interference will be worse!

Since the 205/55R-15s are slightly shorter, this would probably not be necessary as long as wheel offset is the same as OE.

A 55 profile tire, particularly a summer high performance type with stiff belts and sidewalls, whether 15 or 16 inch will increase ride harshness on poor pavement, but IMO it is a good trade-off for the significantly increased grip, and the harsher ride characteristics are not noticeable on smooth pavement.

Performance alignment is easy. Just set all four control arm cam bolts to push the pivot axes outboard as far as possible. The front pivot axis location controls camber and the rear caster, but there is some interaction. Moving the front pivot outboard increases negative camber and moving the rear pivot outboard increases postive caster. Once all four pivot axes are as far outboard as possible, measure caster and camber. Adjust the front pivot bolt on the side with the highest negative camber to equal the other side, and the rear pivot bolt on the side with the highest positive caster to equal the other side. Then recheck and tweak as necessary to achieve equal negative camber and positive caster on both sides.
.

Many cars use this scheme including my Cosworth Vega, so if the guy ever worked on a GM H-body, the 190 is basically the same as are many other cars.

Depending on the range of adjustment and car to car tolerance you should end up with about 3/4 degree negative camber and between 10 and 11 degrees positive caster. Limit camber to negative 1 degree if it happens to go over and make sure both caster and camber is as close to equal on both sides as possible.

Set the toe-in at about 1/32".

Duke

Last edited by Duke2.6; 12-28-2005 at 08:22 PM.
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  #24  
Old 12-28-2005, 10:13 PM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke2.6
The 6.5x15 30OE wheels, both the early forged versions and later cast versions (which look more like the OE 15" 190E wheels) all have 49 mm offset, same as the 6x15 190E wheels, so no change if you install 6.5" 300E wheels. You should ask the seller to photograph the size that is molded into the back of the wheel. Real 300E (base model) wheels are 6.5 x 15 49ET.
When I didn't realize that I needed a 23 offset for the W126, I bought a set of the 15 hole wheels for the SDL. Unfortunately they have the 49 offset and I believe that they came from a 300e. I'd need to double check the width at 6.5".

They are in average condition and would benefit from paint.

I'll part with them for what I paid for them: $175.

LMK if anybody wants some photos.
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  #25  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:30 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 29
Thanks Duke

Very informative post, it's hard to find people with knowledge of how to make the car drive better rather than just see how big of a wheel will fit. Now to convince momma why I need new wheels that look just like the old ones!

Happy Holidays to all
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  #26  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:16 AM
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Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: ajax, ontario, canada
Posts: 773
I would rate the ride quality of my 190e2.6 as firm, but compliant.

the 201 naturally does not smother bumps as well as a 124, due to its lower mass (i.e., inertia). High-frequency bumps like tar strips are felt at high speeds and cause some vibration to be transmitted to the cabin.

like all benzes however, the suspension has the ability to swallow large bumps, due to its long-travel articulation.

the shocks as well seem firm at low speeds, but adapt at highway speeds to soak up major bumps, giving the car a sense of stability and poise at all speeds.

the firmness of the seats are in tune with that of the suspension, which gives the driver/passengers a feeling of solidity and stability.

the result is that, for a relatively small car in the 201, you get an excellent long-distance cruiser.
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  #27  
Old 12-30-2005, 01:37 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hella NorCal
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On the 600, with the Sport mode on, it is fairly firm. It will hold the car level through big twisties. On regular mode, it is just right. It rides quite smooth, even onver those potholes big enough to swallow thos damn bimmers.
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  #28  
Old 12-31-2005, 02:41 PM
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300D-firm, with a hint of harshness on bad pavement. Shocks/springs presumed OEM or OEM-like replacement. It could probably use all new bushings, but it's okay for now.

Lincoln Town Car- when I bought it it was a soft, floaty, wallowing PIG. Now I have Police Interceptor front shocks, KYB Gas-A-Just in the rear, and S-rated tires aired up to 36 psi at all four corners. I was going to put in late-model cop springs, but Ford was in the middle of changing suppliers when my old springs went bad and there were none to be found, so I had to settle for NAPA regular springs. It's still a little softer than I'd like, but much closer to the "firm but not harsh" ride that I want.

Samurai- HARSH This thing is sprung so stiff that the only time I've ever bottomed the front end was when I hit a 10" half round obstacle (oops) at about 25 mph and caught a couple feet of air before I landed. I have LT235/75-15 tires on it, and at 20 psi it actually rides decent on pavement. I had them up to 30 once, and that didn't go over so well. Oh yeah, stock springs, 2" shackle lift.

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