Car: 1986 300E (130k/mi)

I have noticed recent rust stains in my new cooling tank resevoir. My question is -- how serious is this, and can I do somthing to prevent further corrosion -- if this is indeed the problem. First, some background. . .

Last month I had the head-gasket replaced becuase it was leeching oil into the coolant. I also replaced the radiator, and all hoses. For better or worse, I flushed the remaing oil in the coolnat system by driving it (short distances) w/ a mix of water and vinagar. I used such a mix, changing it daily - for about four days.

Have I caused a corrosion problem, can it be reversed, --- or did I just loosen some remaining rust. I have since-of course, put a proper mix of coolant and water.
(PS: The stains may even have occured before I put this proper mix in --and they are not worsening.)

Any insight?

Steve

You can't really reverse it. My guess is that the water corroded it without any coolant. Nothing much you can do except, make sure you proper concentration of h20 and coolant.

Just What "Coolant" Did You Use?
 

Now that I have put on my flak vest and helmet, let me ask you the question that ALMOST ALWAYS results in a red flaming folder. Are you using the proper Mercedes antifreeze? ;)

If you put green coolant/antifreeze in your car, you should drain it as soon as humanly possible, flush the cooling system with Mercedes citrus cooling system flush, part number 000-989-10-25 (I don't have a price for you, but it's usually around $11.00) and replace the antifreeze with Mercedes antifreeze, Part Number Q 1 03 0002. Fast Lane has it for $10.89 per gallon. You only need one. :cool:

Now some people will disagree with me, but I also suggest that you go to the local supermarket and purchase a gallon of distilled water like you would use in a steam iron. Mix the antifreeze with the distilled water 50/50. Or, you can go to a local Pep Boys, and buy a special de-ionized water for use in batteries and radiators that's made by Peak™. I really can't recommend that you use tap water. :rolleyes:

If you want to know why I am suggesting all of this there are several lengthy threads on that subject that are already in the archives. This one links to all of the best ones:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/13292-special-coolant-mb.html

And I don't know where you got the idea of putting vinegar in your cooling system, but it won't even do a 10th of the job that the Mercedes flush will. And vinegar is way too acidic, and you could actually harm your water pump seals by running it in your car for a period of time like four days. :(

But am I OK?
 

Thank you for the replies.

My central question, however, is whether I have done any irreversible damage.

What I want to hear is that the new antifreeeze (perhaps MB antifreeeze)will indeed inhibit any corrosion I may have caused from my water/vinagar buffoonery (recomended by my mechanic). Am I OK?

Steve

Steve,
You have not harmed your cooling with the vinegar flush. Vinegar is a fairly weak solution of acetic acid(4-5 percent).Acids have no effect on fats(grease).To do a good job of cleaning your cooling system, you need to use a degreaser first, followed by a citric acid flush. The degreaser removes the oils and grease deposits allowing the acid to do its job.I did my 1982 300D-turbo last summer, and I can say the stuff does a good job. You can get the citric acid from your local super market. Look in the home canning srction. Or get it from your local MB dealer.Part No.000 989 10 25. The degreaser No.is 001 986 21 71.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky.

Bill,
Do you have to take the raditor out and flush it with degreaser & citric acid??? Also, can you please let me know the details such as the mix ratio etc and how long one has to wait between the degreaser & citric acid flush ?? Thanks
smk_texas
92 190E
92K

Steve,
Another thought about which brand of antifreeze you should use in your Mercedes. Daimler-Chrysler approves a brand to use in your MB.It is Valvoline's Glysantin G 05.
Glysantin was once the brand made by BASF.BASF sold the brand to Ashland Oil(parent company of Valvoline).
By the way, silicon or silicates is added mainly to prevent foaming and maybe some lubrication of the water pump.
Valvoline's Glysantin G 05, approved by Daimler- Chrysler for world wide applications can be bought at you local auto parts store. It's called ZEREX. Check this out. Maybe a little less expensive than what you get at your Mercedes dealer.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of VALVOLINE

SMK_Texas,
Here is the procedure for cleaning the cooling system. The ingrediants to use are listed on a thread above.I mixed the entire contents of each container in a plastic bucket and poured it into the reservoir tank. Top off with water.
1.Completly drain coolant. Radiator and block. Drain plug for most diesels is on the lower right side of the block in front of the starter
2. Remove thermostat
3. Fill system with degreaser solution
4. Run engine at operating temp. for five min.
5 Stop engine and let cool to about 122F
6 Completly drain radiator and block.
7.Rinse twice with clear water;run engine warm 5 min. with each rinse.
8. After second rinse with clear water, fill with 10%(100g/l)solution of citric acid.
9. Run ten min. at opperating temp.
10.Drain and flush three times as you did before.
11. Fill system with your favorite antifreeze. Any well known brand will do just fine in your now clean cooling system.Valvoline's Glysantin G 05 is approved by Daimeler-Chrysler for world wide applications. Notice that they state that Valvoline's Glysantin G 05 is approved, and not mandatory that you use it. You can buy from your local auto parts store. It's called ZEREX..

Regular Zerex Is Not G O5...
 

Sorry, Bill,

But BASF only licensed the rights to manufacture antifreeze with Glysantin in it as the corrosion inhibitor to Ashland Oil, Glysantin is still a trademarked and patented product produced solely by BASF. Valvoline might now make a G O5 antifreeze, but it is not readily available to the public as such. And you cannot "buy it from your local auto parts store". Valvoline in fact, told me it wasn't available to the public.

Don't believe me, check out: http://www.valvoline.com

Show me where they ever mention G 05 on their website, or where you can buy Zerex, G 05 antifreeze, please!

The closest they come is Zerex 5/150, which is their extended life antifreeze. Regular Zerex still contains phosphate corrosion inhibitors which are bad for your Mercedes... Read the label on the product for yourself.

To be sure I would only recommend Mercedes Benz coolant under the part number I already posted here, available from Fast lane, or your local Mercedes dealer.

Rule of thumb: IF IT"S GREEN, DON"T USE IT!!!!

Scott L. and others,
I was wrong in assuming that Valvoline's Zerex and their Glysantin G 05 were the same products. Since Lexington is the headquarters for Valvoline, I called them to ask where I could buy their Glysantin G 05. Lo and behold it can only be purchased at your Mercedes dealer. At around $13/gal.Wow!
The stuff must have magical powers.
I asked the Rep. I talked to why it wasn't sold in regular auto stores like the P-green stuff and other brands of antifreeze. He wasn' sure about that, but he thought it might have something to do with the agreement Valvoline made with BASF over the trade mark of Glysantin G 05.
A question I would like to ask anybody to answer is this:If Prestone is so detrimental to all automobile engines,why is it (Prestone) the leading brand of antifreeze sold in the US. The P-green stuff has been around since 1927. Surely, if the green stuff is as bad as Scott would have us believe, It would have destroyed so many engines in its 34 years on the market, that no one in their mind would want to even be near the stuff.
All car engines are made of the same materials; cast iron,steel high lead solder copper,aluminium, brass and low lead solder and also use plastic and hoses in the cooling system. The P-green stuff is formulated to provide optimum protection for these materials and also protect against rust and crrosion rust. What more do you want than that. And at half the price.
This post is getting to be too long, but I would like to tell of one experence I had with Mercedes antifreeze.
In the fall of 1993 we bought a 1983 300SD from an elderly couple in Cincinnati. They used it mainly to drive to their Fla. winter home in the Tampa area. They bought the car new and had it serviced at the prescribed intervals at the MB dealer.It had 130,000 m. on the odometer. It had MB antifreeze in the cooling system.I did not change it because the car had been serviced nine months before we bought it. All fluids were changed. In the summer of 1994
the upper connection for the radiator broke off.I gave no thought about the antifreeze causing the breakage. I figured it was heat and age. The worst enemy of plastic is heat. And of course age. I installed a new Behr radiator($245), filled it up with a 50/50 mix of the P-green stuff and haven't had any coolant related problems. That's been almost seven years ago.
Scott, if you can only buy the Valvoline (Mercedes) antifreeze at the dealer and maybe some mail order houses, I wonder how many MB owners who don't have their MBs serviced by the Mercedes dealer are driving their cars with that P-green stuff in their radiators.
Scott,you continue using Valvoline's Glysantin G 05 in your Mercedes, and I'll continue using the P-green stuff in mine(I've used it for fifty +years- thirty-four in Mercedes). This way we both can be happy-and friends.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of Valvoline's Glysantin G 05 antifreeze.

You Think YOUR Post Was Too Long?
 

Seriously, I'm really glad you checked with Valvoline to confirm what I'm saying. I like to be accurate in whatever I suggest on this forum.:)

However, have you read the information other members and I have contributed to this subject via the link (to the links) I provided in my earlier posting to this thread? Regardless, here's the jist for those who aren't interested in reading several old threads.

First, to answer this question, "If Prestone is so detrimental to all automobile engines,why is it (Prestone) the leading brand of antifreeze sold in the US. The P-green stuff has been around since 1927. Surely, if the green stuff is as bad as Scott would have us believe, It would have destroyed so many engines in its 34 years on the market, that no one in their mind would want to even be near the stuff." It's not my personal crusade here, I'm just passing on what knowledge I have acquired through my research into this subject. Don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. :rolleyes:

Also, I am not targeting a specific manufacturer when I suggest that you not use an antifreeze that contains phosphate corrosion inhibitors. Peak, Havolive, and every other manufacturer of "the P-green stuff" is included in that assessment. But they all do make antifreeze that should work as well as Mercedes antifreeze containing Glysantin. Those are the products usually marketed as "Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant" But those products cost as much as, if not more than, the Mercedes product, and may not work as well, so why should we buy them?

All that having been said, let's address your question differently. Why has antifreeze with phosphate, amine, nitrate and similar corrosion inhibitors been the predominant cooling system antifreeze sold in the U.S. for the past 70 years? Marketing has a very large part to do with that, but add to it the fact that no one had, until the recent past, developed an antifreeze that addressed the problems caused by using phosphates, nitrates, amines and similar compounds as corrosion inhibitors, as well as the added use of silicates.

In fact, there are many engines and engine components that have been destroyed over the past 70 years by using "the P-green stuff". Radiator scale, corrosion, engine block cavitation, water pump, and radiator & heater core failure can either be viewed as normal failure of parts that would need to be replaced anyway during the course of regular vehicle ownership, or they can be viewed as the "detrimental" effects of using water mixed with "the P-green stuff". It is possible that no one saw the correlation between the use of phosphates and all of these component failures. Or did they? After all, all antifreeze sold in the U.S.that use those corrosion inhibitors have been "reformulated" to supposedly be safe for use in aluminum engines. If the manufacturers didn't see a problem, why reformulate?

In Europe, where the water is very "hard" and consequently chock full of minerals, using a phosphate corrosion inhibitor in your antifreeze (especially in an aluminum block engine) is disasterous. Water "hardness", or mineral content varies greatly in the U.S., so my recommendation is to just use the antifreeze designed by Mercedes for use in your U.S. import.

The phosphates in the antifreeze, combined with the heavily mineralized water, causes a reaction whereby the minerals "drop out" of solution and attach to the passages in the cooling system. Further, they will, after sufficient time, break loose and combine with other chunks of mineral spars to eventually clog some of those passageways. In the meantime, you've got an abrasive mixture of antifreeze and water with these mineral bits swirling around under pressure in your cooling system wearing out your water pump seals, and abrading the aluminum walls of the engine and radiator. Whatever doesn't plug up, is cavitated, or eroded.:eek:

And when you add to that, the electrolytic effect caused by multi-metallic engine & cooling systems, you increase those chances for cavitation. Diesel, and especially heavy commercial engines, are prime candidates for these types of problems due to their aluminum blocks having steel sleeves inserted to form the combustion chambers. Add the aluminum pistons with steel piston rings, and it's like rubbing a balloon on your head, and touching a doorknob. Except now, metal is being degraded by the static "spark" effect in the antifreeze mixture. Any Mercedes, or heavy commercial diesel engine shop should be able to tell you about how many engines they have seen come in with serious problems of this nature.

If all of this weren't the case, there would be no need to have developed the "extended life" antifreeze that is now on the market. You will now be seeing the "phasing out" of green phosphate antifreeze throughout the industry. Saturn uses a proprietary red antifreeze, GM has a specification for antifreeze that is called "DEXCOOL" that Havolive, Peak and Prestone all make product for, Ford has a similar specification for antifreeze, and Chrysler is also developing one now that they are owned by Daimler. None of this new antifreeze has either phosphates in it, or a green color. Coincidence? I don't think so. You see, Mercedes was the innovator of this technology with BASF. Of course, how many other things can you think of that Mercedes has innovated that have been copied by just about every other vehicle manufacturer?

One of the reasons that we own Mercedes' is because of those innovations, along with the high reliability and longevity possible given proper maintenance. I did my research because of a simple statement from a tech at my local Mercedes dealer. After looking under my hood when I bought my car in October, he said, "you've got the wrong antifreeze in your cooling system", and that started me wondering whether he was right or just trying to sell me some product. After everything I have found out, I'm now quite sure he was right.

I'm glad to hear that you haven't had any problems with your cooling system over the past seven years. I hope you never do. You may be an exception to the general issue, or perhaps it's due to using distilled, or very "soft" water with your antifreeze. But you may have problems developing in your engine and cooling system right now. I don't know.

I too, have used "the P-green stuff" for more years than I want to count, and have never questioned the quality of those products. But this is a matter of proper application of the correct product, and I have now determined that any antifreeze that has phosphates in it isn't the optimum product to use in a Mercedes.

I agree with your right to choose to use whatever Antifreeze you want. I would hope that a civil disagreement about antifreeze wouldn't polarize anyone's relationship with another member on this forum.;)

Mercedes antifreeze is available here from FastLane for $10.89 per gallon. Just slightly more than the cost of "the P-green stuff". It's Mercedes antifreeze, Part Number Q 1 03 0002. You only need one gallon of it added to one gallon of demineralized water to refill your cooling system .

Try this: Do a flush of your cooling system at your next coolant change interval, Use the Mercedes flush, and see what, if any, crud comes out of your cooling system. Then, refill the system with The Mercedes stuff, and see if you can see any difference at your next coolant change after that. Then report back to us and let us know what your conclusions are. :D

Scott,
You have written a great treatise on the goodness of Valvoline's Glysantin G05 and the evils of Prestone antifreeze. Now we need to educate the 80% of American car owners(domestic and foreign)that are using Prestone antifreeze of its evil effects on their engines. This is a task I don't want. A good, well proven product is hard to dispel. I say let each car owner choose their own poison and live with it. I have chosen mine and lived with it for the last 50+ years. No regrets.
By the way, what color is the Mercedes-Valvoline Glysantin G0 5 antifreeze?
Scott, you sound like a good fastidious and proud owner of Mercedes autos,I would bet you buy Mercedes Batteries.
I have owned too many Mercedes in the last 34 years to list here. Lets just say I have owned a few.
Bill Lewallen: Lexington,Ky. Home of Valvoline,the maker of Glysantin G 05

Why, Thank You..
 

Actually, It's not a crusade against any evil. I did my research, and made up my mind. So, if my research helps someone to make a decision either way, then that's great. Otherwise, it at least helped me!:cool:

But no one will need to educate the American public. They will get used to it! The green stuff IS on the way out, and will most likely be gone within the next 10 years...

And the last time I looked, Mercedes antifreeze ranged from a kind of straw yellow to a medium amber color.

But, FYI, I use Interstate branded batteries, always have! :D

You might be surprised to find out that interstate makes the batteries branded by Mercedes, and the MB one is just slightly higher ( a few dollars) in price than the Mercedes equivalent! ;)

Scott,
At least we agree on one thing. Batteries. I have used Interstate batteries for at least 25 years, but I think the next one I buy I'll get from Autozone or Advanced Auto. I've heard that Interstate makes their batteries and many other brands. Someone told me that there are only two companies that make batteries.Interstate and Exide. There surely must be more. Do you know if there are more than two?
I've heard people swear that they would only have a "Mercedes" battery put in their car. Same for MB brake pads and calipers.Did you know that at one time Mercedes used Dunlop brakes? Shame.They have also used Girling and Teves(ATE). I've worked on all of them.
I won't list all the Mercedes I've owned over the years.
Let's just say I have owned a few.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky.
After thought;none of my turbos whistle,but the one I rebuilt on the 1982 300D turbo does w(h)ine between 30-40mph
Like a minature 747 jet.Not loud. Just sweet whining.
B.L.

Batteries At The Ready...
 

Bill,

This link was the best I could find so far about who the major manufacturers of batteries are for standard automotive applications here in the U.S.: http://www.thebatteryman.com/battery_manufacturers.html Interstate seems to be conspicuously absent...

Here's another couple of links that are chock full of information on auto batteries: http://www.batterycouncil.org/ and http://www.dmoz.org/Business/Industries/Industrial_Supply/Batteries/

Optima is one brand that has been discussed here on the forum quite a bit. They are now owned by Interstate But their batteries aren't always a perfect fit in Mercedes cars.

Here's a tip on getting more battery for your buck. Find an Interstste distributor in your area, and buy direct from them. And when you do, ask them if they have any batteries in the model you need that are "Blems", or "Pre-Installs".

These units are every bit as good as the "brand new" ones, and come with the same warranty, but are sold for at least 25% less that the "brand new" ones.

BTW, if you want to know more about the antifreeze issue, a new member has dredged up the old Red vs Green thread, and I posted the link to Valvoline's website where they detail the Glysantin G 05 coolant...

[Edited by longston on 02-25-2001 at 05:45 PM]

Scott,
You certainly are a whiz on computers. And I'm not kidding. I really mean it.I've been at it for almost two years and still have a lot to learn. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks? We shall see.
Thanks for supplying the information about batteries. I will enjoy reading it.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky.

Scott and others,
Wasn't it Mark Twain that once said "Believe nothing you read, and only half of what you hear"? This may be reversed,I'm not sure. That's about the way I feel about this discussion on coolants.If Valvoline's Glysantin G 05 is all so powerfull good, why not let the non MB owners buy it and let them decide if it's as good as the other good quality coolants on the market? My opinion: I don't think Ashland Oil want's to enter a market with a product no better than the coolants already on the market. Valvoline already has their Zerex brand of antifreeze, so why would they want to come on the market with a product that is no better than their Zerex brand.
I believe Mr.Twain also said, "If you are in room full of people, and they all doubt your intelligence, don't speak up and remove all doubt". Maybe we all have said too much. With that said, I will exit this discussion.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Where Valvoline is, and turbos .whine

OH, Please...
 

First, Bill, you answered your own question, if you re-read your post.:rolleyes:

The quotation by Mark Twain actually was, "It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it, and remove all doubt." :)

He also said "I was seldom able to see an opportunity, until it had ceased to be one". and, "Nothing needs reforming as other people's habits".and "When a person cannot decieve himself the chances are against his being able to decieve others".

I could go on, but why should I? Mark Twain never had the pleasure of owning a Mercedes...;)

Don't chicken out now, it's just getting interesting. :D

I came upon this thread at this point and had not read any of it previous to it's current length.

I have gotten into the antifreeze freezeout here before. I will say this, longstons comments in this thread and previous ones have made me think about my antifreeze choices of the future, however, I understand perfectly where Mr. Lewellen is coming from.

I have a '78 Ford 4X4 truck for a ranch truck. I bought it new in November '77. When it was brand new I added a little Nalcool to the radiator. I have changed the antifreeze only a couple of times in 23 years and have added Nalcool when I changed the antifreeze. The radiator and water pump are original. The radiator looks impeccably clean and corrosion free and has never made a trip to the radiator shop. The truck has had a zillion very short trips and has less than 90,000 miles.

Improvements have come to virtually everything automotive and otherwise over the years. Although I will probably start using extended life antifreeze next time it's due on any of my cars, I doubt that it will come from the MB dealer, but I wouldn't rule it out yet. With that said, I don't think my old ranch truck has proven anything bad about prestone and nalcool. I also realize that my very unscientific test in my old truck is in a vehicle with zero aluminum in the system.

Have a great day,

I just wanted to throw one quick thought that may have been missed up to this point, if Mercedes see's fit to put their own formulation of antifreeze into there own cars, isn't that good enough?

I mean, those German engineers just don't sit on their duffs all day long. I'm sure they are in there Labs all day working hard at giving you the best most innovative cars in the world (including Cooling Systems), they are at the top of the industry and have been for decades. :)

And now a short question, are we wiser than them?

Ross

Scott, Ross,and others,
One more fling on the antifreeze fray: On Sunday a friend of mine brought me an article that appeard in the Nov.Dec. 1990 issue of "The Star" magazine, published by The Mercedes Club Of America. The article is on page 20 and is titled "No Mo'Delo? It deals with the fact that suppliers of products to use in auto engines, pay Mercedes(Daimler Chrysler?)and other auto Mfgs.to test their products so they can say it is approved for use in their cars. Chevron felt that the market for MBs was relatively small and did not justify the cost of meeting the restrictions that MB put on the compabies. These restrictions have to do with labelling and names as well as quality. Many companies choose not to pay this fee. They include companies like Shell, Texaco,Amoco,and BP. Gentlemen, these are highly respected companies, and I would say that most American car owners use their products and have never even heard of this magical stuff call Glysantin G 05.
I have known for years that suppliers of products to use in autos paid the auto Mfgs.to "test" their products,and approve them so that they could say that so and so company reccomends their product(s).
Just thought I would share this information with you. After all it's from "The Star".
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of Ashland Oil's Valvoline Glysantin G 05 antifreeze.

Thank You, Larry Bible...
 

Those kind words were validation of part of what I think we are all trying to achieve by posting our comments on this forum in the first place. And that is to simply get each other to THINK about our choices for our cars.

The whole point of this forum to to have numerous opportunities to both receive information from and offer assistance to one another. I would like to hope that where actual knowledge is absent, research is brought to bear, and that it is the fruits of that research that we bring to this forum.

It is always nice when we acknowledge and appreciate the amount of time and work someone puts into doing research on this and other subjects that we respond to on these forums.

You see, it's not about trying to "be right", or to force anyone to change their mind. All anyone can ask is that we all take the time to read what has already been posted on this subject. In both this and the past threads, consider the validity of the points made, do our own research, and then make our OWN informed decision. Just as I have.

As far as Bill's comments about the article in "The Star", I thought we weren't supposed to mix oil with antifreeze/coolant. :D

Seriously, the one point that struck me was that of the restrictions Mercedes puts on any company that wants to test their products in Mercedes vehicles. It only served to reinforce what Ross was saying about Mercedes engineering.

And as regards the antifreeze/coolant that bears the Mercedes-Benz nameplate, that is a proprietary product manufactured solely for Mercedes, and has nothing to do with the point of the article written for "The Star".

Finally, there was an old expression that originated in the 1960's or '70's. It went like this: "Don't knock it til you try it".;)

Scott,and others,
I would never mix oil and antifreeze. Nor would I mix any additives to the antifreeze or oil in my cars. The only thing I mix with the diesel fuels, is a product that inhibits fungi growth in diesel fuel.
As for the antifreeze recommended for use in Mercedes, I will admit that it is good stuff. So is the other antifreeze made by Valvoline. And Shell, Texaco, Amoco, BP, Exxon and all the other companies.
Since Valvoline's Glysantin G05 and their Zerex are the same color, should we suspect that if the truth be known they are in fact the same product? Have any of you ever been in a plant where they bottled products? They may bottle the product of many different labels. The filling operation doesn't stop to make changes for each different brand. The bottles with the different label is changed. It would be too costly to shut down and change for each different brand. They (the differnt brands) are all filled from the same tank. This may be called Business Economics 101.
Have you noticed that Advanced Auto antifreeze is the same color as Prestone. Same labels on the back, but different labels on the front. They seem to sell a lot of their ADV brand. I must admit that I use it and with no guilt feelings for shuning the Mercedes product.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Home of Ashland Oil's Valvoline; maker of Zerex and Glysantin G 05.

What A Great Story...
 

And you tell it so well! :)

It kind of reminds me of the one I heard about how the Kennedy brothers are living with Marilyn Monore, JFK Jr., and his wife & wife's sister, Nicole Simpson, Mary Jo Kopechne, Amelia Earhart, The now grownup Lindberg baby, Elvis, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, and Jim Morrison, on an exclusive private estate located on a highly classified, top secret, uncharted island guarded by black helicopters in the South Pacific that's being run by Jimmy Hoffa, using a staff of zombie Bigfoots for slave labor, while both being kept alive and supplied by the airbase aliens from Area 51. But don't tell Art Bell that I ever mentioned it....:eek:

BILL! We all need a vacation now and then. But when your plane gets back from "Fantasy Island" perhaps you could supply us with some factual information derived directly from Valvoline? ;) Thanks, I'd appreciate it!;)

After all, you do live in "Lexington, Ky. Home of Ashland Oil's Valvoline; maker of Zerex and Glysantin G 05.":D :D :D :D

THIS IS HUMOR, PEOPLE! This is not intended to be a slight on Mr. Wm. Lewallen, or to be in any way disrespectful to him, or intended to riducule him, or any one mentioned in this posting, whether living, dead, factual, or fictional! OK? If anyone is offended in any way, I will both humbly apologize and immediately delete this message, Mr. Phelps...

News Update! I have looked all over the area where I live for a trace of ZEREX and can't find any except at the Walmart. The Manager of their automotive department advises me that he has been told by the head office that Walmart will be discontinuing the sale of ZEREX antifreeze/coolant, and all stock left at their stores will be sold at a major discount.

Hummmm, maybe Bill IS on to something, after all... Now, where did I write down that phone number for Art Bell?:confused:

Scott,
I enjoyed all the humor in your last post. I'm afraid I know only a few of the people you mentioned.I do remember names like Clarence Darrow, W.C. Fields, Lum and Abner, and of ccourse Laural and Hardy.
Scott, did you figure out the puzzle about the only common word in the English language with three consecutive double letters in it's spelling. If so, please post it so the others will the answer.
To get away from the antifreeze debate, but still stay in the realm of automobiles, let me ask this question to all of you.
A few years ago a group of automobile engineers were asked what they thought the best improvement was to the automobile since it's introduction in the late 1900's.
Do you you know how the majority answered?
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky.

Another Attempt...
 

I would swear that I had posted this prior to going out for dinner, so if it shows up somewhere else, let me know so I can delete it! Damn that Art Bell and his aliens!!! I know it was them!:confused:

Here's an interesting read courtesy of Kent Christensen: http://www.imcool.com/articles/anitfreeze-coolant/G05-Glysantin.htm :cool:

I've re-posted it a few times since Kent originally did, and I thought it was time to do it again...

And Bill, then you'd remember the Lindberg baby, and Amelia Earhart as well as Sacco & Vanzetti. Hopefully, none of them personally.;) And I'm not going to answer trivia questions and ruin it for other members. It would be like the guy who always tells you what the ending is to the movie you're about to go see! :p

[Edited by longston on 02-28-2001 at 01:32 PM]

Scott and others,
I just got back from my Fantasy Island trip, and sorry to say, it was not too good of a trip. Their were a bunch of people, especially one, hawking a magical product for their auto cooling system that was supposed to do wonders for their cars. But the people wouldn't listen to them. With 80% of US car owners using the Pee-Green Stuff, the people wondered why the Green Stuff could be so bad. Me too.
I have rebuilt somewhere between 40-50 MB engines over the past 34 years. All had the Green Stuff in them when I removed the engine and drained the coolant. None of them showed any harmfull effects from using the Green coolant.
The word with three consecutive double letters is:
bOOKKEEper.
The item the engineers chose as the best improvment to the automobile since it's introduction was THE ELECTRIC STARTER.
Now that is one thing I will agree to.
One more thing. I did check with the Wal-Mart near me(we have two in Lexington) about their selling Zerex antifreeze. They do plan to stop selling it. The automotive parts manager didn't know why but said they didn't sell too much of it. It was on sale for $6.49/gal. Prestone was selling for$6.60/gal.The manager said Prestone outsold Zerex by a wide margin. He wasn't sure how much but he said it was a lot. I wonder why? It certainly couldn't be the price.By the way, I did not buy any of the cheap Zerex. I have plenty of Prestone on hand. With that said, I will now leave you, and hope to meet again as friends.
Bill Lewallen Lexington, Ky. Where the turbos whine in the bluegrass.

Black Mercedes,
I must also confess that I know little about coolants. Just that I have used Prestone for over 50 years in at least 50 cars with nary a bit of trouble. Why knock a good product, when 80% of American motorist are using it in their cars.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. The Blue Grass State; where turbos whine.

John S.
I forgot to ask about the prize for naming the song(poem). Back in the 50's we owned a few VWs and as I remember, none of them used any liquid coolant. Their engines were air cooled. If I would win the contest,what would I receive as a prize. A gallon of air? Or maybe a gallon of dehydrated water.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. The state with fast horses and pretty women. Or is it the other way?

John S,
By gum John,you take the cake. As for using the antifreeze used by Japanese bikers, I think I'll stick with Prestone(that God awfull Green Stuf). I've used it for the last 50 years. Never any problems. No reason to change.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. Where turbos whine in the Blue Grass State.

ok - I finally decided to
 

post my $.02 worth. My father had a Ford Taurus that had NEVER had the coolant changed. One time when I was over there nosing around under the hood of it I opened the coolant reservoir cap and noticed that it was very slimy in there. Man, I mean it was awful!! I think he had about 136k miles on it at the time. Within a couple of months the head gasket blew and he purchased another one. The secret, as far as I am concerned, is to change it once a year.
Jim
'85 300D
'95 E320
'97 CRV

The Plane, Boss, The Plane...
 

Well, at the risk of Mr. Lewallen feeling that he's getting ganged up on, I just have to jump in here and add to this discussion again. You see, I would say that he and I are just agreeing to disagree on this subject. And that's OK, I'm not an antifreeze salesman, I don't get paid by Mercedes, and I'm not interested in forcing anyone to use a product that they simply don't want to.

However, Bill, even though I have no reason to doubt your word, or disrespect you in any way, I would feel better about your decision to cling steadfastly to Prestone if I thought that you had done any research, or read the archived threads on this subject. But I have given up on convincing you personally, as I can see that no amount of information will ever change your mind.

Mercedes has used their own antifreeze for at least 15 years that I can document so far, and at least one old MB tech has told me that he remembers seeing "red" antifreeze in MB automobiles as far back as the 1970's. This antifreeze that Mercedes has being made for them, just happens to be the most advanced formulation of antifreeze in the world today.

If that wasn't true, then GM wouldn't have come up with the "Dexcool" formulation, and Chrysler, as well as Ford (soon to be) wouldn't be using antifreeze with Glysantin G 05 in it.

Just for reference, I decided to read the old "Coolant, RED vs GREEN" thread all over again, as well as the article I posted a link to in my past thread. While I was at it, I finally got around to call the publisher of the magazine that the article originally appeared in, and asked him several questions. Well, our conversation was shortened by the fact that he was under deadline to get the latest edition of his magazine, "Cool Profit$" finished. His magazine is circulated (sorry, intentional pun) to radiator shops nationwide, as well as businesses specializing in antifreeze, and air conditioning.

So the jist was this, He doesn't happen to own even one Mercedes, but he uses MB coolant in all of his cars. If the green stuff was good, he'd still use it, but it isn't and has caused problems in many more cars (and trucks) than just Mercedes. So, I asked him to log on here, post his comments, and answer members questions. He said that he would be happy to do so as soon as he was past his deadline for the latest edition of "Cool Profit$".

While I am talking about his magazine, I'd like to mention that he is currently working on an article about all of the problems that GM dealers and radiator shops are having with using "Dexcool" specification antifreeze. He mentioned the clog problem that Gary asked about, and also said that the silicates are "dropping out" and forming what appears to be sand in the cooling systems. These problems are so pronounced that GM has not only admitted to them, they have actually produced a video on what to do about them! These problems are not limited to any one brand of "Dexcool" antifreeze. It includes products made by Prestone, Havoline, and Zerex. I advise that no one use any of the "Dexcool" specification antifreezes in their Mercedes cooling system. Again, we should stay with the antifreeze specified for our cars. By the manufacturer!

Now, as for Prestone, I went to their website and found out that they originally made straight ethylene glycol antifreeze in 1927 when the norm for antifreeze was methyl alcohol.

Well, EG is a corrosive, and even more of one at high temperature, so in 1930, "Prestone developed and marketed the first inhibitor to further protect the cooling system and retard rust formation. ". Well that's no surprise...

But it wasn't until the early 1960's that American automobile manufacturers actually started using an EG antifreeze in new cars, and then, only with a 50/50 mixture. Whether it was Prestone or not they all used is unclear to me at this time.

Then, in 1972, "the product was reformulated to incorporate the unique, patented silicone-silicate copolymer which greatly enhanced its inhibitor effectiveness, particularly for aluminum cooling system components." If it was so good in the first place, and already had an effective corrosion inhibitor in it, then why reformulate it?

Then they say, "The year 1977 marked the introduction of Prestone® Super Flush formulated to remove rust and scale from radiators. ".

If this stuff is so good, why did they have to create a specific product to clear the rust and scale out of the cooling systems that it was being used in? Especially when the inhibitor they had added as far back as 1930 was supposed to "retard rust".

Then, "In 1981, Prestone® antifreeze/coolant was again reformulated to provide even better corrosion protection for the increasing number of aluminum cooling system components used in cars. ". Whoa, slow down! I thought they already conquered the aluminum issue in 1972! What's going on here?

But we're not done folks, because, "In 1994, Prestone introduced many new products in the antifreeze and car care categories including Prestone® LowTox™ antifreeze/coolant, Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 antifreeze/coolant and RV antifreeze. ".

If this stuff is so great, why have they reformulated it every decade since the 1960's? and as for their claim, "Prestone antifreeze/coolant became the Official antifreeze of NASCAR®." , they specifically mean, "Extended Life 5/150 antifreeze/coolant ... is licensed by NASCAR®", and guess what? THAT IS NOT THE GREEN STUFF!

WOW! These guys have hyperbole swirling faster than the antifreeze in the cooling systems that their products are still in. And while we're addressing that issue, I seriously doubt that "80% of American motorist are using it in their cars." as Bill states.

First, Zerex is the #2 antifreeze manufacrturer in this country, closely followed by Peak and Havoline. Now if you take into consideration all of the other private label off brands, along with the specialty antifreeze targeted at the trucking industry (who have had the worst problems with "the green stuff"), and all of the other "designer" antifreeze used by the Japanese manufacturers, and Saturn, VW, Audi, BMW, Volvo, Saab, and Mercedes, how could all of that only account for 20% of market share in antifreeze sales?

If you don't belive me, then, Do your OWN homework!:

http://www.prestone.com

http://www.valvoline.com

http://www.havoline.com

http://www.peakantifreeze.com

http://oldworld.quietgiant.com/

[Edited by longston on 03-01-2001 at 10:57 PM]

comment on logic
 

"why have they reformulated?" They may, may have changed because of technological advances. Because things are changed doesn't necessarily suggest they were wrong. Not questioning your conclusions. I will think about switching in my MB and keeping the green in my '65 Ford cast iron pickup for nostalgia. This and other threads are interesting for the interplay between information and experience. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

To all car owner,
It is with great relutance that I return to this debate about antifreeze.
I was hoping that the wind from the West had died down, but,alas, it has not. I have explored some of the sites that have been posted here. They have been great sites for promoting their products. Like the magical cures for everything from cancer to in-grown toe nails. I have not had time to read all the testimonials extolling all the good properties of their coolants. Nor do I need to read them. Experience is the best teacher and with 34 years experience of dismanteling MB engines in preparation for rebuilding them,I have never seen any damage caused by the coolant in them. Most had Prestone in them. After all, it has 80% of the US market.
Even though I have not had time to read all the testimonials, I have taken time to read the labels on the back side of some of the different brands of antifreeze. Guess what they say? They all say the the same thing with a 50/50 mix:
PREVENTS FREEZE UPS
PREVENTS RUST AND CORROSION
PREVENTS OVERHEATING AND BOILOVERS
PROTECTS ALUMINIUM AND ALL OTHER ENGINE METALS
What else do you need to know about a product?
I say if the products fails and causes damage to our engines, we sue the bastards. Though I doubt if the indivdial motorist would receive much compensation. A few years ago I took part in a class action lawsuit and we won. Or I should say the lawyers won. They got $3 million. I got a check for $2.83.
Back to the Great Debate. Yesterday I had to replace the thermostat in my '83 300SD. That's the one I had to replace the radiator last summer. That's also the car that had "Mercedes" antifreeze in it when I bought it. It now has Prestone in it. And you know what I feel safe with it.
The radiator I had to replace was the original. A Behr.
My 1977 300D has the original Behr radiator and has had Prestone antifreeze in it for I know the last 24 years. If it (Prestone) causes trouble with my cooling system and ruins my engine, I will sue Honeywell(parent company of Prestone).Maybe I'll get a check for more than $2.83.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. The Blue Grass State. Where diesels purr and turbos whirr.

Off topic but...
 

I was on the winning side of a class action suit against my mortgage company and my winnings were 50 cents.

Jim, John and others,
The poor consumers suffer in all class action law
suits. We suffer the damage and the lawyers collect. We had a lawyer here in Central Ky. that was suing a chain store for a lady client and they won a judgement of $50,000. Guess what? The lawyer kept the $50,000 and sent her a bill for $10,000. You figure that one out.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky.The Bluegrass State. Where diesels purr and torbos whirr and cars are full of Prestone.

Just for fun I sent the following E-mail to all the antifreeze manufacturers that were listed in the prior posts:

There is a lengthy thread going on the web page http://www.peachparts.com concerning the use of various brands of antifreeze in Mercedes Benz automobiles. Many people are questioning the safety of various brands of antifreeze in Mercedes Benz automobiles. Can you either post in this group or send me a reply that I can post concerning the above question?
Thanks,

Let's see if any of them come onboard here. If I get anything back, I'll post it here.

Anti Freeze and The Distilled water myth
 

I own both a Mercedes (86) and a 1999 Chevy Crew Cab Dualie,at 18 and working in a parts store, I have cheap access to Various products and use them/abuse them at little cost to myself. (1.5k Mile Mobil 1 oil changes, 10k mile Brake Fluid changes, I have too much time on my hands even though I am full time enrolled in College aswell). My Truck came with the red DEX-COOl Antifreeze and I have been VERY UNSATISFIED with its performance. There isn't one fitting on the coolant system (quick release fittings)that I haven't had to replace, the "Dealer Only" Intake manifold gaskets(Have water passages in the intake manifold) which also went down for the count because of corrosion. Dexcool is much much more corrosive than the regular green stuff. Chevy water pumps tend to go right at about 50k miles, I know as my dad has owned 13 chevy trucks in the past 15 years(No, Not because they were junk). Now with DexCool at 7.99 per gallon vs. 4.79 per gallon for Ethylne Glycol Green Antifreeze, we see why manufacturers are pushing for usage of DEX-Cool.

As for the Mercedes aspect: When I bought the car I flushed the radiator within 3 days. I refilled with a proper mixture of 50/50 Green and (gasp) Tap water. I change it every 30k Miles and have absolutely no scale, grease build up, or corrosion in my motor (I've pulled the head) or any of the exposed coolant pipes. As far as water pump life goes, Water Pump bearings are sealed, the minute that the seal fails and exposes the bearings to engine coolant (coolant leaks from the weep-hole) the Water pump is supposed to be earmarked for replacement. So special antifreeze doesnt make much of a difference.

Distilled Water: Distilled water is added with the intent of keeping minerals out of the coolant system. Did anyone ever consider that an iron engine block that is constantly in contact with the coolant might shed a few minerals here or there? Remember that most mercedes are iron blocks with aluminum heads, so the effect on the coolant is still similar to that of a (dare I say it?) Chevy or Ford....

Keep on your wild goose chases and quotations of great authors, I'll just change my antifreeze once a year. Besides, 150k mile change interval? Now who sounds ridiculous?


Jason M.
1986 300E 88k
1999 Crew Cab Chevy Dualie 7.4L 90k
ASE Parts Specialist
Student at UCF

Jason,
I have just read your post concerning the Great Antifreeze Debate. You make more sense than any one yet. Myself included. I don't believe there is any difference in the popular brands of coolants on the market today. If they state that their products will protict your cooling system from corrosion and rust,and it does'nt we should sue them for the damage their coolant has caused.
Bill Lewallen Lexington,Ky. The Blue Grass State where the grass is really green, and the coolant in our cars is also green.
Diesels purr; turbos whirr.

Bill,

Thanks for the vote of confidence Bill


Jason M.

Jason,
You are quite welcome.
Bill Lewallen

First Reply- Valvoline
 

Thank you for you interest in Valvoline, and the Valvoline family of products. We do not have applications for antifreeze, so we can not tell you what to use in a Mercedes. I do know that a great deal of Mercedes require a
phosphate free antifreeze that is only available at Mercedes dealerships, and if you use anything else, it can damage your cooling system.

Thanks again for your interest in Valvoline. If you have any further questions
please feel free to call us here at 1800TEAMVAL.
Joey, Valvoline Tech Services

I just picked up that degreaser solution from Mercedes part # 001 986 21 71 but it doesnt say what concentration or how to mix it. Is it also a 10% solution or is it different?
Thanks