KNOCK after oil change on initial startup ! OH MY! possible engine damage?
 

Well, to start from the beginning so it will make more sense (if thats possible) :D

I bought this car in December. When I changed the oil, it was EXTREMELY dirty and the filter was very old and had a big (not original) hole in the side of it. :thinking:

When I took out the filter- the canister was full of oil, which I thought was odd, but now I think I know why it was like that. I never thought much about it. When I changed the oil, I used RotellaT 15W-40 and a NON-MB filter. I put 1000 miles on that oil, then changed it today. Well, when I removed the cover from the filter canister- the canister was EMPTY. I was told by another member of my family that the MB filters have an anti-drainback valve and the others do not. Seems like this could have been the case here? Does anyone know if this is true?

Anyway- I did not think much of it- I changed the oil- put in the Mercedes filter and this time used Castrol GTX 20W-50. Normally, I will remove the coil wire and crank for a few seconds (on my other cars), but was not sure if this should be done on Mercedes, so I did not do it. Mistake? When I started the car- it ran for about a half of a second, then stalled. I thought, "OH NO" - the chain or tensioner broke"! So, I hesitantly turned the ignition again and it started, but with a loud knock and what seemed to be a miss for about 3-4 seconds! :sick: I thought for sure something bad had occured, but then it quickly stopped and the engine smoothed out nicely as normal. I let my father know and he said I should have either disconnected the coil wire and cranked, OR should have filled up the oil canister with oil before I started- which I never thought about doing, or even know if that should be done. :uhoh2:

Anyway, is it possible that I damaged my engine, or drastically shortened its "life"? I really need this car to last me for at least another year, so I hope I did not cause damage by not filling the canister before I started. :anxious:

Any info about this, or the drainback valves appreciated.

BTW - the car is a 3.8L V8.

I do not think and I hope you didnt do any damage??? Was your car on ramps when you chaged the oil? Sometims the elevation of the car pushes the oil toward the back of the oil pan and when you go start it, oil doesnt get to the engine quick enough because of the slant.

When I do my oil changes, I use ramps. But I do not add oil then crank and add more oil. I just add the correct amount, check level and start. Let it run and then take it down the ramps. I also do not use OEM oil filters. I just use the ones I can find at pep boys or auto zone. The OEM filter does look different from the aftermarket ones though. I have never had a problem with aftermarket filters. On occasion, I heard a slight rattle or faint knock but goes away instantly. I beleve that noise if from the valves and or some metal to metal parts in my engine. Now that loud knock of yours doesnt seem to sound too good from how I am imagining it but have the car checked out anyway just to be safe. The oil I have been always using was the 15-40 rotella which is a great oil. I had my mech open my valave covers to change the gaskets in the 560sel I have and he was impressed that the engine was sparkling clean, and thats with 151k miles!

You said you ran it with the coil wire off for a couple seconds.

Make sure you crank the car over while watching the oil pressure gauge.

Sometimes it takes maybe thirty seconds or so to build proper oil pressure up.

You may run the battery down doing so, but don't start the car until your oil pressure comes up on the gauge.

The pressure gauge is your friend.

I have ran down plenty of batteries trying to build up the oil pressure after changing the oil on the v-8's.

Thanks for the replies. No, I didn't crank it with the coil wire removed. I wish I had of. I have did this before on other cars, but not on this car. I had never owned a gasoline Mercedes before and was not sure if it should be done- so I did not do it. I was about to though.

Two560: Nope, I didn't have it on ramps, that wasn't necessary, as I could easily gain access to the drain plug. Luckily, the oil pan is far enough forward for this. The car was setting in level ground. I hope no future damage will occur sooner than it would have if this had not of happened. As mentioned- the knocking went away, but I cringe when I think about it doing it, because something was not properly oiled. I hope it did not weaken my chain tensioner.

I honestly think the MB has an anti-drainback valve, which keeps oil in that canister, which is why it was full the last time I changed it - then I used a NON-MB filter- which did allow the oil to drain out- hence the knocking. ??

I have another thread about a "VRRR" sound on frist startup of the day. Now I am almost sure it was not doing this before I changed the oil last time. I think the non-MB filter had something to do with it. I will know the next time I start it for the first time of the day. If no "VRR" or "ZRR" sound- I will know it was the filter that was causing it.

Cranking it with the ignition wire off is a waste of time. On a tight healthy engine the oil pressure comes up within like a second after a change. Even on my 250k+ mile 603 it comes up right away.

I remember when I started my friends S320 right after we did the oil change the guage came up as it was cranking and was at 3 bar right after it caught.

It was probably your tensioner acting up.:rolleyes:

One should never crank an engine with the coil wire disconnected. Many modern electronic ignitions can be damaged if the secondary circuit is open. IIRC the Mercedes service information has a warning about this as many others do. If you want to disable the ignition, disconnect the 12V power to the switching module.

A proper Mercedes oil filter has both an anti-drain back valve and the bypass valve. Only buy a proper Mercedes spec oil filter like the Bosch 72165 from a reputable Mercedes parts specialist. Many McParts oil filters including "Bosch" brand that Autozone carries do not meet the OE spec even if their catalog calls out a number.

After an oil change, start the engine and hold about 1000-1200 revs. The oil pressure should rise within about three seconds.

A ticking sound on statup may be due to lifter bleed-down or a "sticky" lifter. If you believe the internals are dirty and may have some lifter clogging I suggest you continue to use CI-4 oil.

Duke

The tensioner knocking? :rolleyes:

When you say yours "instantly" gained pressure- is that when your filter canister is full of oil? I am assuming that you are using MB filters. Remember, my canister was empty - there was a cheap filter in there.

As mentioned above- there is probably not even anything wrong with the tensioner and it was probably the off-brand filter causing that. Also- this AM (before oil change), I had someone listen when I started it- that noise sounded like it came from the PS pump area.

Well, if I knew for sure that the MB filter had an "anti-drainback" valve, it would make a little more sense. When I first start it of the morning, the pressure goes to "3" within a second and as mentioned before, when I changed the oil the last time, the filter canister did not drain out the oil and it did not make any noise when I restarted then, but that is when it had the old MB filter I removed and replaced with the cheap one that I removed this evening- when that canister was empty. I am anxious to see if that first startup still has that "VVRRR / ZZRRR" noise until pressure reaches "3".

I am just wondering why the canister was empty this time (with the off-brand filter) and before it was full (with the MB filter). Thats why I am thinking it is true that they are indeed anti-drainback filters- because it was holding the oil in.

My car does have 265K and it probably was not as meticulously maintained as yours. The first 200K was put on by the original owner and was well cared for it appears, but the guy I bought it from had put around 64K on it and he did little to it. I do not think he changed the oil more than a few times. He even told me all he did to it over the 5 years he owned it was change the fuel pump.

Duke- that is what I was concerned about. It is really not a problem on the older cars (to disconnect the coil and crank), but as mentioned, I was unsure about the MB, so I did not do it.

As someone above mentioned- "it is a waste of time", some would not agree. I know of a lot of people that do this. It may not help much, but it does lessen the "dry start" a little. Not all engines are "tight and healthy".

Thanks again.

I'm with that opinion - and also, how important it is to fill the oil filter before reinstalling. It's pretty disturbing that the canister was empty when removed. That just isn't normal. Is it possible that it wasn't installed properly? There are some parts (spring, a washer, for the bypass) that come off, and the order is important. You mentioned that the filter had a hold in the side of it. Do you think that someone might have done this deliberately because the bypass wasn't working?

That filter with a hole in the side of it was the previous oil change (first one I had done to it). At that time, the canister was full and that was a geniune MB filter, however, there was no "washers" or "springs" in there when I removed it. When I changed the oil at that time, I did not use a MB filter. I think it was a "WIX" filter, which obviously does not have an anti-drainback valve- which is why I think the canister was empty. This time, I did use a genuine Mercedes filter I bought from the dealer today.

Funny- there was a couple of washers (different sizes) as well as a new gasket for the canister- which I used. I did not use any washers though, because I did not know what they were for, as the first time I changed the oil, there were none in there before, so I was thinking this may have been something in there for a different engine that uses the same type filter. Did I do something wrong with this filter installation by not putting in any washers in the canister somewhere? I saw no place to put any. No one mentioned that before, so now I am confused.

I think my initial post was confusing, so I will explain step by step here:

Purchased car in early December- changed old oil and filter - it had a MB filter - canister was full of oil when I removed filter (were no springs or spacers/washers in it) - I replaced with a "WIX"? filter and used RotellaT 15W-40 oil as recommended as the oil was very dirty and I was told this would "clean out" engine - drove 1000 miles (which was up today). Checked oil level before oil drain today - level was still FULL - drained RotellaT oil today - reinstalled drain plug. Removed oil filter canister cover - canister was empty - save for a little in the bottom - removed WIX filter I had installed 1000 miles ago and discarded. Reinstalled new filter which was a Mercedes filter purchased today at the local dealer- filled car with 8 quarts of 20W-50 oil - checked level and it was full - started car - initially it stalled after a half of a second - restarted and it was knocking rather heavily and almost seemed to be missing - after 3-4 seconds, it stopped knocking and smoothed out, but still had the usual lifter tapping from right side of engine - let it idle for about 8 minutes - checked for leaks - no leaks - turned off car - let set for a few minutes - checked oil level again - FULL - cleaned up mess - discarded oil bottles/jugs in garbage - went in house - washed hands - ate dinner. :D

Hope all is well. I am probably making a big deal out of nothing- but I have learned to use nothing but a MERCEDES filter from now on. However, what I should have done today was pour oil into the canister, but I never thought about it at the time. :rolleyes:

Thanks

I looked in the maint. manual, and a 126's oil canister is oriented differently than a 107's, even with the "same" engine. So you may not have the same parts. It does mention that the orientation of the large must be down, but you probably know that. Maybe "drainback" is normal with this setup.

Looking at the MB maint manual, The washers are seal rings for the center bolt. One of them should be like the one you have installed now (hopefully)! It should be under the shoulder of the bolt head of the center bolt and should wind up under the bolt head and on top of the cap.

Thanks for that info - I will look forward to that page you offered to e-mail me. I think that will help me figure it out.

I did not add any of those washers in there, because I was thinking they were for a different engine. Yeah, the bottom of this filter has a larger hole than the top. Actually, it will only go one way due to this. I slid the filter down into the canister and I just then simply put the cover back on- then put the bolt on and tightened it. I still have those washers though - I think there were three in the package, but I have no idea which to use. Without them, everything seemed to fit securely - if not- I can simply remove the cover and place the washer on top there if necessary.

I think it must have an anti-drainback because as mentioned - the old filter I removed the first time was holding in oil, but this cheap one that I installed 1000 miles ago was not holding in oil when I removed today. I think that was my problem all along - causing the noise at first startup of the morning (I do not recall it doing it before) and the knock today when I started it without oil in the canister.

Thanks again.

86560SEL,

You say that the car is a 3.8-liter V-8 (so yours would be a 380SE or -SEL?). I had the big brother to it, a 420SEL. Now while I've never peeked under the hood of the 380, I'm guessing the layout would be the same. Two points:

1) My long-time independent MB mechanic in Denver taught me to disconnect the coil wire before I cranked the engine too. Sometimes it took 10-15 seconds to get that oil pressure up, but it was worth it for the peace of mind, knowing that the oil was flowing where it needed to go. My W202 C230 doesn't have a distributor anyway, and as Duke2.6 pointed out, it may not be a good thing to do with modern electronic ignitions. But the W126 was fine.

2) How was it that the oil filter canister could be full of oil? When I'd undo the cap and lift out the filter (and I used real MB filters from the dealer or from Fastlane), there would be very little oil in the bottom of the canister. I tried pouring oil in there to prime things, and it would just drain right into the engine. Maybe something -- dirt from the old filter -- temporarily blocked the draining of the oil from the canister?

You can't fill the oil filter on the MB's I deal with. All cartrige style, and filling the canister itself is a waste of time because it just drains right into the pan.

I was talking about a well maintained M104 with 70k miles on it. Dry filter, 0w40 in the sump, by the time it caught it had oil pressure. Kind of surprised me how fast it shot up actually.

Very little oil in the cannister on my 380SE. Also the copper washers that come with the filter would be for drain plugs if you change oil from underneath. The small silver washer is for the bolt that goes into the cannister. I usually disconnect the plug wire from the ignition control module which is same wire that goes to the coil(I believe) I then crank a the engine in short bursts about 3-4 times and this eliminates the chain clanking noise and ateh pressure is right there. However, I just changed oil this week and did not crank engine long enough and did have the clanking for about 2 seconds and then it smoothed right out. I hate athat sound and my stomach goes into knots when athis happens. I just have to remember to crank longer.

By the way my wife's Cadillac SRX does this sometimes when it is first started after sitting a few days and if cold out.

Disconnect the single wire green lead on the EZL.(ignition Module).

Thats right Paul - it is a 380SE. I do believe it is the same "layout" as the 4.2L. Attached is a photo of my engine

I was unsure about disconnecting the coil wire, but seems like it is OK as you mentioned your mechanics suggested it.

I am not sure how that canister was full of oil before. I was assuming that after I saw it was nearly empty last evening that perhaps it had an anti-drainback valve and the cheap one I bought did not. Since you mentioned that you poured oil into the canister and it drained out, that it would have made no difference on mine - unless I had some sort of special filter before. :confused:

I recently sold a 1986 560 SEL. I purchased the car with 69K miles and sold it with 200K miles. I changed the oil every 3K miles with MBZ oil filters. There was never much oil in the metal canister. Just a few teaspoons at the bottom. The filter came with the copper washer for the drain plug, the alum washer for the canister bolt and a rubber o-ring washer for the canister top seal. It did sometimes make some valve noice very briefly upon startup, but nothing too loud.

Thanks - so obviously, even these MB filters (canister type which mine is) does not have an anti-drainback valve. I have no idea why my canister was full when I changed the oil back in December - perhaps a faulty filter? I am just hoping that 1 second "ZZRRR" sound on startup goes away with the MB filter installed again. I will know Sunday morning when I drive the car again and will report.

At any rate, I did not use any of those washers provided with the filter. I know I reused the one on the drain plug and I am assuming the one that goes on the canister lid was also still there. As mentioned- I thought those were for a different engine.

The copper drain plug washer is the most important NOT to reuse. I hate oil leaks. You can sand down the old washer and perhaps reuse it, but just get a new one (which will come with some MBZ filters).

Yeah - I just reused the same washer on the dain bolt and no leaks.

The "ZZRRR" sound was not as loud this morning when I started it. Now that the oil has been in there today and driven, we will see if it does it on Tuesday AM, which is when I will drive it again.

Still has that knocking sound though, ONLY between 1500-1800 RPMS, (on acceleration) which has me extremely concerned. I guess I am paranoid now since it had that loud knock when I first started it after the oil change. It has always had this slight knocking (between 1500-1800 RPMS on accelerations), but it seemed to be louder a couple of times today, but that was when I had the radio off. When the radio is on, I cannot hear it at all. Strange, but a couple of times today, I was trying to hear it at those RPMS, and I could not hear it at all. Seems to come and go now. I am hoping it is not a rod or something, but knowing my luck lately with cars, it probably is. I had never read anything about anyone else with a V8 Mercedes having a knock, but I suppose I am the first. For what I paid for it- I will just continue to drive it until it throws a rod out of the side of the engine, if that is indeed what it is. I had a mechanic and my father listen to it and they seem to think it is just the lifters making the noise. :confused: :rolleyes:

Perhaps I can put some sort of additive in the engine to further provide

I forget that there was a problem with some of the camshafts on the 1986 560 SEL's. Mine was one of them. There were made from too soft an alloy or something. It DID start making a loud valve knock. The lobs had worn down (around 100K miles). Both needed to be replaced with newer model.
A good MBZ mechanic would know which of the 86's had the bad camshafts. I don't know about the dealer, I don't think there was ever a recall

Thanks - the car I have now/referring to is actually a 1985 380SE, with 264,890 miles. My user name was from before. I do know that the cam on the passenger side (lobes I can see) look worn down and I have lifter noise on that side. Could it be the worn cams causing that knock? Will it ruin the engine if I do not replace them?

You're being paranoid. I've reused copper crush washers dozens of times with no leaks, and that's sealing gasoline on a Bosch K-Jetronic system in a Saab, running at 40 PSI rather than less than one, as in your oil drain plug. If they do leak, sandpaper is not the answer, as you can leave the sides other than parallel. The trick is to anneal the washer if it leaks and you don't have a replacement.

This seems to have become a two part question:

1. Re the camshaft: I am not an expert on camshafts, but I do think that they have a hard metal "skin" on the out of the lobes and softer metal under that; so once you have worn thru that outer layer it will not take long to really wear the lobe down. The valves will not open all the way after that.

As we all know Chev and Ford aftermarket cams are GREAT for only a hundred plus US buckos, but all MBZ parts are 5 times that. I used MBZ cams for my 86 560, but there were others parts available, but still expensive.

2. Re the copper washer. I realize that the oil pan washer is no big deal since there is not that much presure there and oil is viscious. But with a fuel filter I would be anal, with gasoline I would use a new crush washer and if not available I would massage the old washer to make it perfect. No one wants leaking fuel.

Yes, it has turned into what seems to be a 3 part question.

Well, that is marvelous news about the camshaft.:mad: Now I know I should not spend a lot of $$$ on this car. I will drive it easily, until it stops I suppose, then buy a new car. The power is still pretty good now, so hopefully I have a few more thousand miles to go.

Does this problem happen to the diesels? Seems they can go 500K+ miles without this problem, but the gasoline engines cannot, or can they and I just happen to have a poorly maintained car?