I am with Alon in this one. Why the need to get the last word in? Why the need to justify the reasons why he purchased a lexus. If the car is so great and he likes it so much, then he should drive it, enjoy it and should feel secure that he made a better choice by buying a dolled-up Toyota. I imagine that rest of us will continue to drive and enjoy our Benzes, warts and all!

Alon, I also read your post about the missing economy gauge in your car. I'll trade you my economy gauge for your Euro headlights! :-)

As the great Rodney King once said: "If I had been driving a Benz, instead of a Yugo, they would have never caught up with me..." Why can't we all just get along?

__________________
Current Benzes

1989 300TE "Alice"
1990 300CE "Sam Spade"
1991 300CE "Beowulf" RIP (06.1991 - 10.10.2007)
1998 E320 "Orson"
2002 C320 Wagon "Molly Fox"

Res non semper sunt quae esse videntur

My Gallery

Not in this weather!

If you take apart a well made pocket wacth from the late eighteen hundreds you will find all the inter parts not seen by the user are as well finished as the parts that show. I am never failed to be amazed when I take a panel off one of my MB's how finely laid out all the wireing is and how many of the inter parts are machined castings rather than the rough stamped parts found in so many cars. To the techs! is that also the case in a Lexus...?
William Rogers.....

The "JD Powers" and other such surveys have absolutely no meaning when it comes to which car is better. The JD Powers and such surveys are contacted with the AVERAGE driver in mind. The problem is that this average driver DOES NOT have any higher level knowledge of car technology and therefore DOES NOT maintain his or her car in an optimum way. The Mercedes cars are precisely engineered machines and require skilled technicians when it comes to their maintenance. The average driver will USUALLY not assign this maintenance job to the skilled technician. Therefore the car is not maintained optimally and as a result has a higher rate of part failure. JD Powers has no way of knowing the actual technical skills of the people who maintain the survey cars. That is why their conclusions are meaningless when it comes to reliability.
Furthermore other factors such as the MANNER in which the car is driven have direct results on the longevity and reliability of a vehicle. JD Powers have no way of knowing the driving skills of the survey drivers and that further decreases the validity of their results.
If the car is judged based on its reliability then the Lexus has to be a really BAD purchase as both the Toyota Camry and Tercel are more reliable cars and both cost a fraction of the price.


But the most important thing is this: Even if we assume that a Lexus is a more reliable car (which it is not), does that make it a better car? Of course not. If that was the case, then cars such as Ferraris, Bentleys, Jaguars, Lamborghinis and Porsches must all be inferior cars to Toyotas... "How good" a car is, depends on factors such as the thoughtful design and engineering that has been laid out way before the car took an actual form. It depends on the souls and minds of the people who conceived its shape and appearance long before the car actually took this shape. It depends on its history and the legends such as Faggio and other racing drivers who devoted their life testing the limits of each Mercedes so that the flaws can become evident and corrected.
The Lexus has NONE of the above. It is a smart piece of consumer gadget and was designed based on the principles and ideas laid forth by business suits and NOT car enthusiasts. That to me is enough reason to stay away from it.

It happens that one of my hobbies in this life is to built Hot Rods. I have a well equipped garage in my house which I use to restore and hot rod 60s era Chevys. I happen to be a member of another internet forum dealing with American Chevy Hot Rods. We had a couple of incidents where Japanese car enthusiasts entered the forum and badmouthed our cars. There was a huge incident created and a lot of bad words and threats were exchanged. This did not happen here. That goes on to show the high quality of people who are members of this Mercedes forum. However, I think that Mr. "spinedoc" (excuse me sir for calling you Mr. "spinedoc", but I do not know your actual name), did not have to call a Mercedes a "piece of crap". That is not respectful towards the rest of us, and is definitely not respectful towards the Mercedes legend either. Please do not take this the wrong way. I DO respect you and I hope that you will enjoy your new car. What I am trying to say is that apparently you see cars in a different way than most of us in this forum do. There is nothing wrong with that.

"A friend of mine has an '88 Legend sedan, and while it always starts and moves on its own power, it is a complicated engineering nightmare which always has something wrong with it. Lexus cars are in another league when it comes to quality and reliability"

You are setting yourself up for a fall here. The two cars are virtually peas in a pod when it comes to complexity and the resulting loss of reliability. The only issue here is that the Legend was much closer to the beginning of the model run - a new design. You might expect a few more bugs than in a car which is a slightly repackaged Toyota Camry. However, expect the cheap materials of the power window mechanisms to fail eventually in the 300, netting a very expensive repair - to start the list.

When I bought my '88 Integra, I got the model with manual everything. Other than maintenance repairs such as the water pump and a timing belt, rodding the radiator, and ONE road failure - a warranty-replaced ignition module, I have had no problems in 180k+ miles. It does NOT feel new, but it still gets me anywhere I want to go quickly and reliably.

If you want reliability and low maintenance, forget complex luxury designs from any manufacturer.

Steve

When Comparing, try to compare similar years, like 94 vs 93 or so, not 94 to 86.
I owned 99, LX470(41K at Odometer). I also experiencing some problems like in dash cd players stuck, light bulbs defective, front left head lamp defect, Expensive maintainances, 5000 miles service cost me around 160 bucks( not to mention the 10000 miles, 15000 miles).
In the other hand my 97 e420 which has arund 70000 miles, feels solid, only change tires, brakes, wipers, and regular services.

wouldn't trade my 81 SD for your lexus and that be the Gods truth..........
William Rogers.....

Amen to that, brother!

I just love these "I-love-Benzes-I-hate-such-and-such" threads...

If there weren't other makes of cars to slam, we probably wouldn't have this forum. For that matter, I see threads which slam certain years of MBs. Aren't we a fickle bunch!

Overall, I am in this forum because of my interest in MBs in general. But truth be it known, I have owned good AND bad MBs, have friends who owned good and bad Bimmers, Lexus(es), Hondas, etc.
Your last experience may be what shapes your personal opinion of a vehicle.

Yet there are others who will vehemently defend a brand, no matter the outcome. My 73 Bug ceased to be "reliable" transportation 4 years after I purchased it, but nonetheless, I still enjoy it!

The issues concerning quality go out the door when you consider what goes on during a vehicle's life. The ONLY trouble free cars I've ever owned were the ones I bought brand new! No precedents of poor maintenance, abusive driving, etc. With that in mind, if I were in the market for another daily driver, I would pass up a well-worn MB for a well-maintained Lexus.

As far as what makes one brand superior over another fluctuates with the balance sheet. If sales for Lexus products slip dramatically, you can bet that Lexus would scramble to correct the fault. And as others have pointed to quality issues with Daimler-Benz, they too will eventually have to address those issues if too many potential customers drive past the MB dealerships to look over the latest BMW or Lexus.

Personally, I can only respect attention to detail only if all other parameters were covered as effectively. Being an owner of a W124 with an M104 engine, I would sleep better knowing that the head gasket was bulletproof, as opposed to whether the ashtray was military grade or not.

With such heated discussions about cars...it's no wonder countries have been at war for ages over differing religions!

__________________
2009 ML350 (106K) - Family vehicle
2001 CLK430 Cabriolet (80K) - Wife's car
2005 BMW 645CI (138K) - My daily driver
2016 Mustang (32K) - Daughter's car

Only chiropractor call themselves spine "doc". I would be ashamed of naming myself a "doc" if I were a chiropractor. Why people who never went to medical school call themselves "doc" is really hard to understand.

Quality? Understandably don't expect too much.

fpharryc, in Michigan there are four degrees which entitle one to the word "physician": MD, DO, DPM, and DC. Academically, all four are in fact doctoral degrees. As a family physician myself, I would never disparage another professional as you just did.

I note that with five posts you're clearly a newbie to this board. I've also seen lots of other boards where comments such as yours are routine. One of the reasons this one is so popular is that we keep the discussion away from personal attacks; this really is a no-flame zone. If you can do the same you'll be welcome here.

__________________
Craig Bethune

'97 SL500, 40th anniversary edition

'04 Olds Bravada (SWMBO's)
'06 Lexus ES330
'89 560SL (sold)


SL--Anything else is just a Mercedes.
(Kudos to whoever said it first)

I just traded my original 427 Cobra for a 68 Corvette it needs a new engine and tranny and lots of body work but I love what GM did with the interior............
William Rogers..........

toyota makes as good a range of products as any other auto manufacturer i suppose.

and i have owned one horrible lx470 which the dealer bought back from me after 1100 miles. and i have driven a few for 500-1000 mile intervals when visiting los angeles[sc400, ls400, gs400, ls430]. none of them ever made me want to own one. i don't know why, they just didn't move me.

bmw's don't move me either.

i own and drive a few benzes these days. i am the original owner of a 1986 560sel. it has more than 250,000 miles. interior appears as if new. i continue to regard it as the zenith of the art of motor vehicle design and manufacturing. i call it my rainy day car - principally because when the weather conditions in houston are lousy, it is the one that i prefer to drive at speed. it is also the car that i use when i have to freight more than one passenger. and my passengers love this car and always comment upon how amazing that a 17 year old car with 250,000 miles can look so good. i must admit that i take care of my possessions and this one has been well-maintained. no current car manufactured is a worthy replacement for this automobile, in my opinion.

also, over these 17 years, this has been the most maintenance-free car imaginable. particularly in light of how hard it has been driven.

i am the second owner of a 1987 560sec. i bought it from a widow several years ago, principally because it appeared new. and it was virtually new. after 13 years it only had 52,000 miles. i have added another 33,000 miles to the odo. and in that interval, i have had to do the same top-end renovation on the engine as i did to the 560sel at 220,000 miles. that was the curse of the engine undriven. and i don't complain, principally because this coupe is one of the most fun to drive vehicles i have ever owned. it looks great. it gets stares whenever i have it out.

my favorite story was the cop who stopped me for 72 in a 40mph freeway feeder. he asked me why i was going so fast that sunday afternoon. i told him that it really wasn't that fast. he asked me all the questions, marvelling that a car so old could look so good. eventually, he wanted to check it all out. i let him. he asked me to call him whenever i decided to sell it. no tickee. no sellee either, however. at least not as of today.

i am the original owner of a 1995 e320cab. what a lovely machine. white with blue leather interior and blue canvas top. a lot of fun to drive. also gets lots of stares when it is out. and this one is unusual in that i pulled the passenger airbag and replaced it with a real glovebox. its only problem has been the fact that i don't drive it very often. principally because houston weather only begs for a convertible a few days a year. so, from lack of use, within 12,000 miles, the chip that operated the windows and top up/down sequence glitched and had to be replaced.

ho-hum.

i am the fourth owner of a 1979 6.9. immaculately maintained by its previous owners for 50,000miles. i love it, but i shall probably be selling it. too lovely to drive. and i cannot get the extra inch of leg room that would make it comfortable. a great engine. needs more gears to the tranny. and more brakes. but i don't want to do anything altering its perfect stock condition.

i recently acquired a 97 s500coupe from an elderly couple. it has 22,000miles. it is new. it is a great running car. there are some things that i don't like about it, though. principally its larger size. and its larger blind spots. this car, unlike all the others that i own, does not fit me like the suit of armor that the others seem to be. it is more like a shell.

all the same, it will do the twisty bits faster than any of the others. and its 5 liters are as economical as the 3.2 of the cab. it is a great machine that i am still trying to get friendly with.

in closing, i know nothing about lexus engines. does toyota do timing belts? or do they use timing chains?

i won't be acquiring any new benzes in the future. i continue to admire and prefer older iron/aluminum. when my mechanic tells me that he will work on them, the only horses that i want to ride for the future is the more exotic stuff. i am particularly enamored of some aston martins and a few ferraris. and i am always looking for a cherry lotus elite, elan.

but for the everyday - real world operation in houston, tx i find that nothing beats older benzes. just stay away from the dealer.

my 2 cents.

I agree with Craig. I thought that comment was quite rude and uncalled for and had nothing to do with this topic.

I know this topic is nearly 3 years old and am sure that "spinedoc" has already found some Lexus boards similar to this. As a Lexus owner- I am a member of a couple similar to this one, but does not seem as busy only because there are different forums for each different Lexus model.

In response to Lexus- they are great cars, but I feel the 2001-up models are not as good as the original ones- say around 1995 and older. I have a LS400- which is a larger car than the smaller ES300. The LS400 also has a V8 and the ES300 has a V6, but build quality still seems to be as good, as my old 93 Camry LE V6 (Toyota version of the ES300) was a very well built car.

I was originally looking for a 81-85 300SD or a 86-88 S-Class Mercedes, but with no luck, I spotted a LS400 that was interested in and bought it. I have always really liked these cars, as well as the 81-91 Mercedes S-Class body styles, which I am still planning on buying soon.

I have not owned my 90 Lexus LS400 for very long, but long enough to know that the 1990-1994 LS400 are among the best built cars in the world. My car is 14 years old and the interior still smells like a new car and despite the fact that it has 226K miles, it is still 100% squeak and rattle free, even over rough roads. All of the electrical systems are still in perfect working order and the instrument cluster is probably the most advanced of any 1990 model car and is a lighting system that is still used on many upscale cars being built today. The engine is so quiet, that it cannot even be heard and I have to look at the tachometer to see if it is actually running at the stoplights. The interior built with extremely high quality materials and workmanship/build quality is top notch. Sheetmetal is strong, just as a large American/German car and the car feels very solid. A heavy car (3800 lbs.), but still with excellent handling and a excellent cloud-like ride.

Now this does not mean these cars are without any problems- as no car is, but they do have very few trouble spots. They do have just a few trouble spots. Power steering pump leaks are common, which can lead to alternator problems, because the alternator is below the ps pump and the fluid leaks on the alternator and ruins it. Also, failure of the struts on air-suspension models- which is very expensive to replace, starters (manifold has to be removed to replace - poor design).

I also feel that many Mercedes models are fine cars- but they too have some problem areas and some models are not as good as the others.

__________________
2004 Toyota Sequoia Limited 4wd
1991 Lincoln Town Car Executive
1991 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1988 Mercedes 300SEL
1972 Chevrolet Caprice Kingswood Estate 9-passenger wagon
1973 Pontiac Grand Ville
(Prior MB's: 1974 240D, 1985 380SE, 1984 190D, 1993 400SEL)

Here are a few data points that might be of interest.

I bought my first used car ever, year and a half ago, 1991 300CE. It was to be my daily driver and something to fuss over. I LOVE this car!

Just bought a 1990 LS400, 130m. If I could have found a like vintage MBZ for my budget of $3000 I would have preferred that. (Only one set of repair manuals!) Only had it a few weeks. My initial impression, very smooth engine, V8 power, everything appears to work, no squeaks, but the ride is not as solid as the 300CE. This is even though the PO has upgraded to 16"wheels and bigger rubber 225's. Quite possible that this car would prefer the OEM size.

In perusing parts costs, the Lexus parts are clearly higher than for the 300CE. Brake rotors are in the $130 range versus $50 for the 300CE.

I have all the service records for the Lexus and if they are any indication, dealer servicing should be avoided at all costs.

Some of the highlights:

12/22/89 Car bought new, $41,074.

1/8/95 Second owner, 34137 miles.

Brakes: typical wear, huge repair cost difference between dealer versus your corner gas station.

Batteries: seemed to go thru batteries, 4th new one 11/18/03, but the owner was the type never to check his battery. This last time when they tried to jump the near dry battery #3, it exploded! They aren't kidding with the warnings on batteries!!

Timing belt: 83500mi, about $500 at the dealer for belt, idler assembly.

Fuel pump : 62,000mi, about $440/dealer

Lower ball joints: 127000mi, about $500/dealer

Water pump: only one water pump at 127,000mi!!, about $1000/dealer for belt, pump. Radiator cap $32!!

EGR pipe : cracked, finally addressed at 103,000mi. $125 part but $610 labor!!!

I saved the worse for the last. As indicated by the several threads on power steering at Lexus forums, this seems to be a weak and very expensive system to fix:

68,000mi, noisy p/s, new pump assembly with pulley $627, pressure line $327!!!, labor $329

101,000mi, p/s rack leaking, tried installing new vsv valve in p/s pump, $225 part, $180 labor, still noisy

103,500mi, p/s noisy, low fluid, leaking, new p/s gear (rack?) $1305 plus $180 labor

The last bit of news the owner got that prompted him to sell the car was a loose connection at the cam sensor. The dealer just used a ziptie to hold it on but then recommended new engine wiring, which I gather is very expensive.


glenmore
1991 300CE
1990 LS400