Talk me out of a project 1999 S320
 

Some background: I've spend the last year buying, fixing, parting out and selling various W123 cars. I'm fine having a nit-picky list of things that need my attention over a period of weeks to months. I'm also fine taking a car off of the road for a repair that takes longer than a weekend.

Fast-forward to this week: I was visiting my indy mechanic the other day shooting the breeze when I commented on the cool S320 he had sitting in the lot. He jokingly asked if I wanted it. Upon further talking he let on that the owner didn't know what to do with it because it needs a new transmission. I told him to ask the owner what the story is. He's going to get back to me.

So what it needs that I know of:

1) Transmission issue. I've done some reading and found that it might be the transmission, or a sensor, or the special liquid-gold priced fluid or...
2) rear subframe mount bolt is broken. See pic below.
3) seat back cover missing
4) radio knob chewed up
5) child safety switch missing
6) interior filthy
7) rear suspension looks squatted down. See #2 above

Did any of the S320s come with the self-levelling suspension? I have a wagon with SLS so I'm not afraid of the system, but I'd rather not have it.

I've been doing some research in the forum and I have to consider that it may need an evaporator coil.

So the things that make it un-driveable are:
1) transmission
2) rear subframe bolt
3) door seal motor? If this dies can I still shut the doors?
4) Evaporator. A man can't be driving a W140 with no AC. Are the replacements an updated design?
5) engine wiring. Shouldn't the 1999s have regular wiring?
6) Head gasket. We have a C280 and are aware of the $1k bill to replace the head gasket when it leaks oil.

What am I missing?

-Tad

And the pics:

Sub-Frame:
http://tad.grosvenor.org/gallery/MiscCarDocumentation/IMG_1007

Outside:
http://tad.grosvenor.org/gallery/MiscCarDocumentation/IMG_1001

Inside:
http://tad.grosvenor.org/gallery/MiscCarDocumentation/IMG_1002

http://tad.grosvenor.org/gallery/MiscCarDocumentation/IMG_1005

http://tad.grosvenor.org/gallery/MiscCarDocumentation/IMG_1006

-Tad

I can offer my opinions on a few items.

First, the S320 is considered the way to if you're going to jump into the W140 chassis cars.

The S320, nor the S420, came with the SLS suspension. I don't think they could even be ordered with it.

If the door closing assist doesn't work, you can still close the door, but you're not going to get the "assist".

The factory replacement, as far as I know, is still the copper / aluminum mix, and I've heard they will still eventually fail.

There is a better aftermarket replacement manufactured by ACE, and it is an all aluminum or all copper unit. I don't remember which. If you use the search feature, I'm sure it has been mentioned many times before.

1999's have the regular "improved" wiring harness.

1999's should have the latest / greatest head gasket which shouldn't leak.

I'm told the 722.6 5 speed transmission costs about $3,500 to completely rebuild, if necessary.

Correction:

The recommended a/c evaporator is made by ACM, and they are a quality unit made in Germany:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/41285-acm-evaporator-124-a.html?highlight=ACM

Here's good info on closing assist -

http://www.v12uberalles.com/Closing_Assist_Pump.htm

If the system fails, the doors act like there's no closing assist. The trunk will stay somewhat ajar. You have to manually push in the latch that extends for closing assist or slam the trunk lid really hard to close the trunk fully.

What's the car worth is running condition? Transmission and AC repair at retail rates probably exceed the value of the car. Not to mention the other issues you know about and probably as many you won't know about until you dive into it.

Sixto
93 300SD

From what you've said, it might be tough to fix it up and sell for a profit, as the W140 models are not "hot" on the resale market these days.

But if you are adventurous it might be worth it to take a chance if you can buy it for a rock bottom price, and you are confident you can get it on the road for a minimum expense for repairs.

They give a marvelous ride and comfort and are sooo safe, but pricey to maintain and run. This one may be worse if it's real dirty, and had lots of deferred maintenance

It is much more complex than the W123 cars, which are real sturdy, simple and classic Mercedes cars

Not to be too nosy, but what's the mileage and price?

I have yet to find out the mileage and price. I don't know if the evaporator has already been replaced, or what the deal is with the squatting of the rear suspension. It may be just that broken bolt which didn't look like a big deal to extract and replace.

From the interior it looks like it has around 120k miles.

I'm going to talk to my mechanic about any service that he's done to it.

The 320 engine doesn't worry me. Our M104 C280 isn't a speed demon, but it is fine. We'd just like something a bit larger.

The way I see it, $2k seems like the max. Given the issues that are apparent during the visual inspection and the known transmission problem, that puts the max value (for me) in that range.

So, how much of a world of suck would I be in if a year from now the evaporator started leaking? I saw the Mercedes labor estimate of 21 hours. I've removed dash boards from a number of vehicles and while tedious there wasn't anything that was really hard. Just a bunch of clips, screws and wires to label. What makes that job a 21-hour job instead of a 5 hour job?

Thanks for the input, I'll keep you posted.
-Tad

If it were an easy project your mechanic would have fixed it and sold the car. The reason that it takes 21 hours is because the whole dash and console comes out, the 140 body is not a 123. The self leveling was an option, but the car should only slightly droop. The leveling pump is tandem to the power steering pump. Considering what it would cost you would be lucky to break even. I would spend the $150 and buy the 140 DVD, there are no paper manuals.
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/

Well the car doesn't belong to him. He really has shown no interest in doing that kind of work on cars abandoned at his place in the past. Seeing as this one isn't abandoned he has just let it be.

Really, the whole dash? You mean I can't just cut the dash in half and patch it with duct tape when I'm done like on the W123? Geeze. I had no idea...

-Tad

Yeah, getting at evaporators or heaters can be a major PITA.

This is a tough one. I'd almost think $1K might be more of a reasonable price.

That looks like sarcasm.

What options are not on the S320's that your glorious S500 has?

My everyday driver is an S320 and its an absolute pleasure to drive. It has plenty of power for highway cruising (unless your one of those v8 ego people) and its comfortable and has been absolutely trouble free for me. Most S320 owners were smart enough to avoid the useless hydropneumatic suspension so you are probably ok there.

If you can get the car for a low enough price I would go ahead and do it. The transmission overhauls can be had cheaper than the $3500 mark if you shop around for a good independant that does enough volume. The interior can be brought back somewhat with the use of the "Leatherique" products.

Keep in mind that the W140 is just another car. Many uninformed people will give you the common myths about 140's being expensive to maintain and having ghosts in the machine. Like any vehicle with the three pointed star on the hood you have to shop around for the best deal on parts. They are very complicated cars but beyond that there is plenty of informaton on how they work. I own a 1982 300SD as well and the 1999 S320 that I drive is on a total different level of quality than the 1982 car. The 1999 reminds me of a bank vault on wheels. It gets a constant 23.9mpg in mixed driving and has a 600 mile range on long trips.

The 140 is built like no other car I have ever seen. The level of fit and finish are amazing. Due to this you don't find the exposed screws and easy to remove plastic parts like many dashboards you have run across. I removed my instrument cluster recently to change the bulbs and looked in the hole after I removed the cluster to find it packed with electronic modules and sound deadening materials. The cluster itself had computer grade gear and sprocket self guiding connectors on it. Without the correct documentation to remove the dash you might as well use an axe because of the damage you will do.

Thank you, Robert.

I'm aware of post w126 changes that happened, seeing as I do have a W202 C280 sedan. It is nothing like the W123 except that I find that it has beefy parts like the W123 has instead of go-cart parts like I find on friend's vehicles.

I honestly find that the c280 has enough power. While I'd love to have 400hp at this point I'm more than happy having just enough power to do a brake-stand (which the C280 will do). We have enough traffic here that my 300TD can out-run the pace of stop and go.

I'll see what the lady comes back with. She might want $12k for it, or she might want what she would get for a tax write-off.

-Tad

Thank you. That helps me to understand the task. If I were to have to do that job I'd certainly subscribe to and follow AllData. I had to make a few trim tools for the C280, maybe they will apply to a 140 as well.

Thanks again,
Tad

P.S. The c280 has the self-guiding connectors on the cluster as well. Much more secure than the W123 push-on style.

Is a 1997 very different from a 1999? It may be a 1997. I looked at the sticker again and couldn't tell if it was a 7 or a 9. When did the W/S show up on the shifter?

Thanks,
Tad

Not sure why you would want to do burn outs in a luxury car but ok :)

If they come back with 12K forget about it. You can get a 1997 in reasonable condition for that much.

You want enough "wiggle room" to absorb any hidden issues with the car. A good rule of thumb is to take the fair private party used value (sorry a mechanics shop is not a dealership) and then start deducting the FULL RETAIL value of the repairs on the car. Be as brutal with that calculator as a dealership service department. When you start negotiating base your negotiations from those numbers and demand some wiggle room on top of that for problems with the vehicle. If your lucky and resourceful you will end up with a cheap car. If your highly unlucky and unresourceful you will at least end up with a car you can resell for what you have in it.

If the owner is smart they will liquidate the car for whatever they can get for it or just repair it. But you never know they might still be making payments on the car and owe a lot of money. Something else to keep in mind. If the transmission went out and they could not afford to fix it what else might have stopped working on the car that they did not repair?

Heh, I didn't mean that I was going to be doing burnouts, just that that is usally a good indication of "enough" for me.

Also, the mechanic is a good friend. He's not going to be fighting me. I'd be buying from the current owner. I'm not going to be impulsive on this one. I have enough cars to drive, and while we were looking for an E-Class, this S might fit our needs/wants once it has a good transmission in it.

-Tad

My friend bought an awsome 1997 S320 for $12k. 70k miles, overall the car is a strong 8 out of 10, that could be brought to a 10 out of 10 with a small amount of work.


That car needs $10k worth of work, I'd stick to that $2k figure. Your crazy to go any higher.


I like the S320 though. It certainly lacks the punch of the bigger motors, but the M104 moves the car along smartly. It certianly is not under powered. It is perfect for around town, and delivers low 20's if you keep your foot out of it.

The M104 is a fine motor, really thats the last thing I'd worry about. Worry about the rest of the car.

The M104 provides ample power for the car. The other day I had some annoying twit in a Lexus that was doing the speed up and slow down bit because he did not want the big black S class to pass his fake japanese "luxury car". Whell I passed him effortlessly and was horrified when I looked down at the spedometer. I won't incriminate myself by posting the speed but it was entirely faster than I should have been driving and the car was still as silky smooth as it was at lead food highway speeds.

While the V8's and V12's are nice Im not sure I would really want one unless I had my own personal track (I'm not really good with temptation). Then again if I had my own personal track I could think of several other cars I would rather be driving at high speeds. :)

I don't know when the W140 cars got the 722.6 transmission.

W210 E class cars got it in 1997.

Lord I hate pulling out a dash when I don't know what I'm doing. One of my favorite tricks is to find one at a boneyard and practice on it. :D Specially good if it's cracked and ugly cause no one was likely to buy it anyway.

I had a wild idea a while back that one could almost make money with a web site devoted exclusively to walking people through pulling interior trim pieces on all makes. I'll have to file that one behind the other 29 fantasy money making projects. :rolleyes:

My 1999 has the 722.6

At least someone can get a use out of those interiors. Once its rained in the car 2 or 3 times the interior is totally useless. I'm really surprised that many junkyards don't recognize the value of some of the interior components of these cars. There is a specialty junkyard here in Georgia that deals in BMW's. To see a yard full of BMW's all with full interiors still in them baking in the sun and in some cases being rained on is a horrible sight.

Many of the Mercedes dismantlers completely take the car apart and use every screw and lightbulb out of the cars which is a great thing. :)

Well its not just the power, the higher spec cars have a nicer interior as well. The S320 is plenty fast enough, but the V8 and V12 powered cars are most certainly faster.

For example pulled to about 100 in my friends S320, it pulled smartly. But punch it at 100 and its running out of steam.

Then get in the S600 and do a 100 pull, its brutal.:D Hold 100 and punch it, it still pushes you back and pulls like crazy.:D

Maybe the S class body weighs down the 3.2 liter engine.

In my former E320, on a shake down cruise to Las Vegas, I floored it from about 90-ish, and it pulled hard and fast to 135, when I chickened out and let off the gas.:P

Your the second person to mention this. What specific options were not offered on the S320? I know the full leather interior (doorpanels and dash) would be one of them but that was not even offered on the S500. When I was looking for my S320 I looked at the 06 S350's as a possibility as well. On the S350 you could order any option that was offered on the S430 and S500. It would be nice to seperate the factual information from the "I heard it from a guy on the internet" regarding the options supposedly not offered on the 6cyl Mercedes S class cars. Ironically the new 07 S class is offered as a 6cyl but only in Europe. And of course the Europeans get a lot of options that are not even offered here. I thought the fridge behind the rear seat armrest and the ability to play DVD's and watch TV on the main nav panel were rather interesting as well.

Power of course is always nice but it kind of sucks to be stuck behind the wheel of a huge sedan when you want to do something irresponsible and fun. I love Mercedes cars because of their engineering and construction but have never understood the people who think they are sports cars. Especially here in America where we have crummy roads and low speed limits. Most of those V8's and V12's just idle around in bumper to bumper traffic only to be utilized at 75% power maybee once or twice in their lifetime. Kind of a waste for bragging rights really. :(

At those speeds weight does not really matter as much when you have that much inertia behind the mass of the car. Thats similiar to what I did the other day trying to pass the moron speeding up and slowing down in his Lexus. I was quite surprised to get that kind of response out of the car especially because I did not give it 100% power.

Heres an interesting tidbit. My brothers 83 300D and my 82 300SD are only 100#'s off weight wise. Im not sure what the difference is between the more modern E class and S class cars are but I was rather surprised since there is a massive size difference between the cars.

Looking at those pictures...such a shame to not care for a vehicle such as a W140 despite the expense. In this case ya depends what he wants for the car that would make my decision in buying it.

It was my understanding that you could get any option on the S320 that came standard on the S500. For example ASR was standard on the S500 but was an option on the S320. The Bose Beta sound system was another that comes to mind. The only thing that I think was NOT available on the S320 was the electronic driver adaptive transmission.

I think that the S320 is a wonderful compromise between the gas guzzling S500 and an E class. Consumer reports called it "The most rational luxury car". My only hestation would be the condition irregardless of price. If it's $2000 but it requires $10,000 worth of repairs (and with the tranny, suspension and the evaporator you're already pushing the envelope) you'd be better off with one in better condition. Also you need to price the restoration on the interior before you think that it's just dirty.

Remember the W140 was built to compete with the Rolls-Royce, NOT BMW. My 93 S500 was $96,000 new and when it comes to repairs I believe it! Since I've had it I've had to do the following:

Timing chain and tensioner $1200
Brakes and rotors $ 850
Rear pneumatic shocks $2000
serpentine belt and tensioner $400

and this was a car that had been serviced regularly and was inspected before I bought it:eek: .

Oh, plus $500 for sheepskins- I thought that the leather was "just dirty" too.

I don't want to scare you, I love my S500 , but you need to know what you're in for before you take the dive!;)

I checked the pix. Inside doesn't look bad and I'm sure the seat back could be had from a dismantler for not a huge amount. That suspension thing would scare the crud out of me though.

Yea, I'm going to get it on the lift and take a look from the bottom before I shell out any cash. I see this as a $500-$1000 car in its current condition. That's what I could expect to get out of it by parting it out.

Thanks for all of the input. The only thing that I don't like about the car is the ASR. I'm sure that when it functions it is fine but the number of posts about failed ASR systems makes me think that it should have been skipped, in this case in favor of a rear window sun-shade and/or heated seats.

-Tad

Just the double paned window glass is easily worth $1000. The computer modules alone are a small fortune in addition to bose amp's and speakers an other audio tidbits. The Wood trim for the dash is also easily worth $1000. You might want to check around on parts prices. W-140's are packed with expensive parts even used. If you part it out let me know I have a list of spares I would love to have on hand. Especially if you think the whole car is only worth $1000 :)

Off the top of my head:
The S600 has adjustable suspension all the way around. You can adjust from soft to super hard.
More leather and wood. I think you could up spec both of these.
Sued headliner.
Wine cooler was an option.

Everything that was an option on the other models was standard on the 600.

Yes. Thats the S600 which is considered a supercar and is not really a fair comparison to even an S500. The S600's interior was standard full leather with suede headliner.

My "low end" 1999 S320 has a full leather interior including the backs of the seats and the same really nice burled wood dash that comes in the S500. From what I have seen the S500 and S320's are identical cars interior wise.

Does anybody have any specific data on S500 options only? It would be nice to know the differences if there are any. :)

Try the audio system see if it works...if it doesnt (makes popping,static sounds) thats another $500 there for an amp rebuild.

I would buy a W140 for the stereo alone!:)

Yeah.... Its absolutely wonderful! 4 subwoofers on the rear deck and a center channel speaker behind the rearview mirror. It sounds quite good. A friend had a Volvo C70 Convertible with the Dynaudio system and it sounds almost as good.

Yeah, I don't see the need to practice on a decent dash cause there are so many at the pick 'n pull that are beyond use to practice on.

We've got several dismantlers here, of course, one of them is like you describe -- they take everything of value off and file it carefully away. Their prices are a tad steep, but you know they'll probably have the part you need

At the pick 'n pulls (they've got three of them in the bay area), the prices are about a third of what they get at the dismantler but you have to get lucky with many parts. If you can show up 5 minutes after they put out a new (junked) MB, oh baby...

Im quite lucky to have a careful dismantler near me that has somewhat reasonable prices. I wish the pick and pulls would stick to Domestic and Japanese cars that people destoy and throw away anyway.