I see, but what sells me on the V12 is the extremly sweet song they sing when on there cams. A 365 GTB is pure bliss at redline!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-YciWqfNjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSAUnNQZOf0&mode=related&search=

Sample the sweetness!

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Hmmm Im not sure what traffic is in your neck of the woods but redline in my 6cyl very heavy Mercedes is a handfull. On a track it would be nice but not something I would want to drive for pleasure.

Enough traffic that one needs to be carefull when opening up an M120. S320 ehh they really don't build speed that fast, quicker than the SDL to 60, highway passing is about average. Not that they are slow...

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Plenty fast for me.

The Honda had a few squeaks that needed some 1040 oil sprayed on it, that was it? C'mon man!! I've heard of brand new MB's needing entire a/c systems at just 10,000 miles. You really think the few squeaks the Honda had, is WORSE than expensive gasket replacements, chronic a/c problems, etc. How can you argue with that? Best read my original post again, mate. But, based on what you are saying, I will however, make a mental note, that cars with more problems are actually better. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Dude, wake up and smell the roses. It's a FACT. MB's have MORE problems, many more, and much more expensive, than Honda's, Camry's, Acura's, etc.
You simply cannot argue that. Here's an example for you...... "10 is more than 2". That's a fact. It cannot be argued with. You're simply living in
la-la land, trying to defend your purchase and your car, because you get an ego boost out of it, and have to justify it. Best for you to re-read my original post and say, "You know what, the guy has a point", than to be so stubborn and fight against facts.

My whole point, which you missed several times over, is that for a "top quality car", they shouldn't HAVE such problems. Sure, they will have problems, but there's no EXCUSE for having so many. 15 year old car or not, the Jap cars would have a/c that still works (maybe you're in a cooler climate, but here in Georgia, it gets damn hot), or need maybe a $100 recharge at most. The MB's are WELL known for CHRONIC a/c problems. Bad fans, bad switches, bad compressors, bad systems. Comfortable in Germany or not, they SOLD them to us here in the U.S., and KNEW ahead of time that it gets hot down south. Yet they let people sweat it out because they were too stupid or too lazy to make them better. We're not talking some silly little inconvenient sunroof squeak here, pal. We're talking about driving in 100 degree and high humity heat and a $1200 - $2,000 repair. But by your standards, that means it's a better quality car, is that right? The Honda's and Toyota's (you paid what, $20,000 for an Accord and you're comparing it to a $50,000 MB) , Lexus, and Acura's (the latter two which more directly compete with MB), have transmissions that are flawless up to about 200,000 miles, just like MB. And when the car is taken care of, the overall car lasts as long as a MB.

Maybe you prefer the ride of one over the other, that's a personal preference. The Jap cars I mentioned are extremely well built. For you to say otherwise is just ridiculous. They compare quite favorably with MB, and for many rich people, they prefer those cars, one big reason is, they don't need repairs. Affordability of repairs or not, rich people (who I do a lot of work for) don't want the hassles of taking a car into a repair shop, and many drive Jap cars FOR that reason.

Am I totally dissatisfied with my 300d? No. I just bought it in June and fixed some problems that I knew it had before buying (a/c chief among them). I'll keep it for now, but I've had to repair other things that I have NEVER had to do with any car, and mind you, I just sold a near flawless 1988 Toyota Camry. That's OLDER, if you'll notice, than my 1991 300d. And suddenly, I find myself coming to this site to get repair info on different things. Radio problems, fuse problems, a/c issues, etc. I don't want to spend my time repairing a car. I also admit that when there are no problems, I "feel" like my car is a nice running car. When there's a pending repair, like most people, my opinion of the car changes.

I'm assuming you come to this forum not for repair advice on your car, but to spread good cheer to others about Mercedes, is that right?

Jeff 1991 300d

I think you have some terms mixed up. Quality and the need of repairs are mutually exclusive. Lets make another comparison so you might understand.

A honda is like a Hostess Twinkie Cake. Cheap Boring and with so many preservatives that if you leave it on the counter it will last forever. A Mercedes is like a creation from a pastry Chef. Lots of high quality ingredients and if you leave it on the counter uncovered it will rot. While the Twinkie will last a longer time being abused which would you rather eat?

Japanese cars are great cars for people who don't understand cars and just want to put gas in them. In most cases this is car abuse. People who barely change their oil and have no idea about how a car works buy Japanese cars. When these people buy a more complicated machine like a Mercedes that is designed by Germans who go through a complex licencing program which teaches them about how a car works before they even drive one problems arrise.

Mercedes cars require more service and repair. Thats the way they were desgined. Perhaps that does not blend in very well in our throw away society where your DVD player stops working and its on the curb and your at Walmart buying another one. American consumers want "new" stuff and those shiny plastic Jap cars seem to be the magic bullet.

Let me tell you about my 82 300SD. I had a 2002 Honda Accord Coupe. Which I bought brand new. I bought the 300SD as a project car because I had an instant attraction to it on the side of the road. When I bought it it was filled partially with water because of leaky seals around the windows. I spent quite some time working on the car and bringing it back from the state that I found it in. Eventually as I was bringing the Accord in to the Honda dealer every week for issues with its brakes, power steering, Transmission and squeeks and rattles I suddenly realized that this beast of a car that I spent a few hundered dollars on to clean up was more reliable. My 300SD is 24 years old and has always started for me every time I have ever gotten into it including with defective glow plugs in the middle of the winter. I have been stranded by SEVERAL Japanese cars and never by a Mercedes. I think thats because Mercedes designs their cars to no matter what get home at all costs.

Even my "Service nightmare" 140 has several limp home modes to get me home in the event of an issue. So far my 140 has needed one set of batteries in its remote (because I close the windows and sunroof from outside the car a LOT) and two bulbs in the instrument cluster. If the Evaporatror and Transmission go out tomorrow its going straight to my mechanic for replacements.

I have been reading the Ferrari lists lately and one of the things that Ferrari owners seem to mention is that owning a Ferrari makes little sense but its something they would always do. Perhaps owning a Mercedes is the same way. Ferrari owners have to deal with overheating Catalyitic converters that could at any time start their cars on fire, bad electrical wiring, weak trim and accessory items but they love their cars. MB owners have to deal with 722.6 transmissions bad A/C components but we keep coming back. Like the Ferrari there is nothing like an S class Mercedes Benz out on the open highway. Don't knock us just because your 124 is giving you problems. Try another Mercedes or just bite the bullet and buy a precious Japanese car that will be a diet coke can in 10 more years.

Not to knock you 124 fans out there but the 124 is my least favorite car. For as much trouble as they seem to be they are still a small uninteresting 4 door sedan. Perhaps you might want to try driving a couple of other MB's before condeming an entire model line? I have certainly driven my share of Jap cars.

Japanese cars are great cars for people who don't understand cars and just want to put gas in them. In most cases this is car abuse. People who barely change their oil and have no idea about how a car works buy Japanese cars. When these people buy a more complicated machine like a Mercedes that is designed by Germans who go through a complex licencing program which teaches them about how a car works before they even drive one problems arrise


rchase...what an interesting reply...been a long time since I have posted in this forum...but I feel like I need to chime in
I guess from your quote above it seems to me a good idea that the germans need to hire some of the japanese...when you can't get the simple sytems to work right.....AC evap...window lifts..wiring ..etc something is wrong..I can understand issues in the complex systems...but C/mon why could they not build the 140 with an A/C that would work

Let me tell you the story about the 1992 300SD( 140) that I used to own...many here may remember my car but I will post again to refresh

Bought the car in the late 90's with a 2 year warranty. Had been a 1 owner car owned by a doctor and bought at at Merecedes of Morristown NJ in December 1991
Full MB dealer records indicating a shorted out instrument cluster in 1994 and also MB updated some front end parts and replaced all the tires under warranty.
There was also an evap core replacement in 1996. All of this was warranty work except for the evap where MB paid half of the $2500.00 repair.

I buy the car and asked the dealer .." should I be concered about these issues in the past"..he told me these were average for a 140 and the car had had all the updates

Anyway...during the 2 years of warranty I had on the car.

Closing assist pump
AC evap core(2ND TIME!!)
complete engine long block assembly replaced
AC switchover valve
climate control dash push button control unit
LR window regulator
various front end replacement parts
Alternator
and few other items I forgot to mention I am sure

Total cost to the warranty company for these was about $20,000
All repairs done at my local MB dealer


after warranty period was over:

becker radio exchanged with a rebuilt unit
becker 10 disc CD changer rebuilt
Bose amplifier replaced

I have to say I VERY picky and the car when I got rid of it was cherry...however I was tired of messing with it...and whn I did the value of the car versues the repair ratio it did n't make sense

Have you noticed how cheap you can get a 140( or 220) for these days...( or 126 for that matter)...it hardly makes sense to repair them

anyway so I bought a certified 2000 BMW 740I in 2004 and the costs to warrnty company have been less that $1000

So as for the statement that german cars always break...not true

good luck

Warren
2000 BMW 740I with full sports package
1992 MB 300SD(sold)

Columbus Ohio

Absolutely! You guys with your two bad experiences with your Mercedes are certainly enough proof that the entire Mercedes model line is junk. Ill be selling off my collection tomorrow for $2.00. NOT!

Good luck with the 7 series BMW's. Ever notice the older they get a 7 series BMW sells for about 50% less than the equivelent year model S class? Want to know why? Oh wait you have one. Just wait for a while. You can get an early 1990's 7 series for $1200 while the equivelent MB is still worth $5000-8000 because you can't really keep the early model 7's running. I considered a 7 for a while because they are very nice cars. Do a google on 7 series BMW's and you will find lots of pages on how they are junk. I wish it were not so because I would love to have an 840ci Coupe.

Seriously though. Bringing your car to a dealership of any kind while not under warranty is a way of being seriously ripped off regardless of who's emblem is on the hood. Not understanding how your car works is also self defeating behavior when you can't correctly keep the car serviced. Infiniti and Lexus makes some really nice cars with wood and leather interiors that all you have to do is put gas in and drive them. If you don't understand the cars to begin with you probably don't know what your missing in the fake luxury cars.

If Mercedes cars are such junk why is it that many owners put up with their shortcomings so much and put so many miles on them? Why is it that used Mercedes cars have higher resale value than any of the equivelent model cars out there? Why would someone pay so much for so much trouble? How many other car makers convertibles from the 1970's sell for $10K on a consistant basis?

Im not going to comment anymore on this thread. If you guys are not satisfied please by all means buy another brand of car and never come back to the MB model line again. *****ing about the cars problems and spreading negative energy in a forum that is unlikely to sympathize with you is a waste of energy. Why not spend your energy doing something positive in your life?

If Mercedes cars are such junk why is it that many owners put up with their shortcomings so much and put so many miles on them? Why is it that used Mercedes cars have higher resale value than any of the equivelent model cars out there?


you are kidding right?...that used to be the case...look at the MB of the last 10 years. The resale is is nothing to be proud of...you can buy a 2000-2001 S500 in great shape with about 75K miles for 20-22K all day long long( or way less if the miles are over 100K). check out a late 90's e class ... as for the convertible comment and seeling for 10K..look how much the cars were new...and by the way you can buy a 20 year newer convertible( which I would be much more interested in) for $22-25K all day long. These cars that had stickers over 100K when they were new

Good luck with the 7 series BMW's. Ever notice the older they get a 7 series BMW sells for about 50% less than the equivelent year model S class? Want to know why? Oh wait you have one. Just wait for a while. You can get an early 1990's 7 series for $1200 while the equivelent MB is still worth $5000-8000 because you can't really keep the early model 7's running.

Again I have to say you are kidding...funny how you mention this ..I was just looking at a 2002 745 and a 2002 S500 last night....745's tend be about 8-10,000 more expensive on the used car market even thought the s500 was about 10,000 more brand new....as for the older cars check out the prices of the BMW versues MB when they were new( 7 series versus S class) and you will see that the BMW was in many cases about $15,000 less expensive brand new

By the way I dont think I mentioned in my last post that the 1992 300SD was the third benz I owned. I also owned a 1985 300SD which was a solid car and a 1992 300D which was a great car.
Another thing that turned me of on the last benz I owned was the MB zone rep's lack of concern as th why I was having so many problems
He told me in so many words.."why are you upset you are not paying the bills its all been warranty work"
As a person who likes the freshness of newer cars as well as the newer safety features and audio capability I knew that buying a newer 220 model would be a major compromise.All the time I spent at the dealer with my 140 at the time I got to see what the lions share of cars were that they were fixing...that really changed my mind when I went to purchase another car
So far I don't think I mad a bad decision...do I think the 740 I own now is a reliable as an LS430...NO...however I am willing to compromise for a little bit to get more of a driving feel that I like.


Warren
2000 BMW 740I
1992 300SD( sold)
1992 300D( sold)
1985 300SD( sold)

Columbus Ohio

Meaning? What would be a good buy? I am guessing you mean that this a costly car to maintain and I am paranoid about putting money into a older car?

Yes, I agree with you about the part - if you cannot afford to maintain a high-end luxury car, then perhaps its best to steer clear, or the car will be worth nothing in no time.

I must say I have to disagree thought about the part about 200K mile Japanese cars being scrap metal. Its no secret that the newer Japanese cars have declined in quality, but many (or most) of the ones of the 1980s up until about the mid 1990s were high quality cars. My father has a 1988 Nissan truck, with 260K miles and other than tires and brakes, has needed nothing but a starter a couple of years ago @ 245K. My uncle bought it new, so I knew the complete history and he never pampered the truck. In fact, it had the original timing belt until 209K when my dad bought it from him. I have had Accords and Camrys, all with 220K miles. One Camry had 230K and was still like new. One of my aunts has a 93' Camry she bought new, now with 246K. My 90' Lexus LS400 had 254K when I sold it and the girl I sold it to still has it and it has 272K on it now (last time I spoke to her)- all original parts, except timing belt, brakes, etc. I was amazed.

Now there are some 80s Japanese cars that were crap. Some never even made it to 150K without woes, but for the most part- most 80s Toyotas and Hondas would go 250K easily if properly cared for. 80s American cars could not touch them. Still, the 80s Mercedes- especially the S-Class were one of the best built cars out there. Mine has 267K miles, 21 years old and still rattle/squeak free.

Also, I did not realize there had been so many replies- not to mention someone being banned. My my.

Well, after reading this and other research- it seems $12K is way to much for this car. The "guy" that has it (so he kept being called) is actually an independent Mercedes used dealer/repair shop.

Now they have a 1994 S420, 1-owner, black on black, 164K, claims to be exceptionally well maintained for $4950. How does this sound? I know this one is the one with potentially $$$$ A/C problems. Hopefully this one has been resolved. It is a definite that these cars will have this evaporator problem, or is it possible that one may never have an issue? Maybe I can make a deal with them- stating if it ever goes bad, will they set me a $ now to repair later if needed. What about timing chains? How often on these do they need to be changed and how vital it is on this model? I am assuming that this has an "interference" engine as well?

Here are photos.... Thanks again for any additional advice. If this one does not work out, I will probably be buying a new Toyota truck, but I really like these S-Class Mercedes. My aunt loves her 94' S500 - no issues save for the A/C compressor.

Attached Thumbnails

   

No offense just an oberservation. Trade your 380 in soon before the zipping timing chain snaps!

I wouldn't buy that W140 unless you wouldn't have a problem dropping a few grand a year into it. If so than by all means, the W140 is a fantastic car. 1997+ are the years to look for, the later in the production run the better.

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I understand, no offense taken. After hearing the horror stories about the early W140 (92-94 S-Class), I am really hesitant, despite this 94' S420 being a "1-owner, well maintained" model.

Still a beautiful car, nonetheless and the price is very attractive.... only $4900, but that may signify something is wrong.

I guess I will just keep my 85' 380SE as a back up car and make another selection for my other car. I am going back to Toyota- either a Toyota Tundra or a 96-00 Lexus LS400. I had a LS400 in the past and it was an outstanding automobile. It was a 1990, had 250K and was flawless. I regret selling it. If I get an LS again, it will be at least a 95', with 100K or less miles though. Maybe even a 01' LS430 if I can find a good deal on one.

Thanks again for the replies and keeping me from buying a $$$$ money pit.

The problem with the Lexus is they are so boring. They are the perfect car, they have no fualts. But in being so perfect they have no soul.

This is what I want next, and when I am shoping next fall an XJR will be on my short list. All British, tons of wood, leather, handles like a dream, a 400hp sexy cat.

Lifes to short to drive a Lexus.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=207021098&dealer_id=92921&car_year=2002&num_records=25&search_type=both&make=JAG&distance=0&model=JAGXJR&transmission=&address=06460&make2=&certified=&advanced=&max_mileage=&bkms=1160798100604&max_price=25000&sort_type=yearDESC&min_price=1&body_code=0&end_year=2007&color=&start_year=1981&drive=&engine=&style_flag=1&doors=&fuel=&cardist=1428

__________________
1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200