119 timing chain question
 

I have been reading lots of posts on the 119 timing chain. I am considering the purchase of a salvage E420. The seller reports engine noise and advises that the chain has "slipped" on the right side. The engine will run, but makes lots of noise. Is it possible that the chain has indeed "slipped" or is it more likely that guides/tensioner are broken. Also, if the chain has indeed "slipped" would the resulting shift in valve timing likely result in piston/valve contact. Recall, the engine will run......

I think I have to assume bent valves and possibly damaged pistons/cylinder.....just trying to determine max risk...

I've never seen the 8 cylinder engine opened up. (My limited experience is with the inline 6) Any comments would be appreciated.

I've heard plenty about 117's breaking a rail, and eating some valves, but I honestly don't recall reading anything about 119's doing so.
If it were me, I would check the car out...For my suspicion would be that the wiring harness went south and the car is either in limp mode or it ate one of the coils (happened to me) and is only running on 4 cyls. See if the check engine light is on, and if it has the LED button, run the test on it, and see how many codes it spits out. If some of them don't make any sense, when compared to how the car runs, suspect the harness. You can find the harness going into the brainbox (between firewalls, where the batt. ought to be). If it looks as old as the rest of the car, I would suspect it as the culprit. In my case, the wiring harness also ate the ign. control module ($$$), besides a coil.

Anybody else wanna chime in about the 119 chain and rails?

Thanks for the reply. Vehicle has new wiring harness--don't know if any fault codes are stored. Going to look at the vehicle would require a full day of travel time--just trying to get a good feel if it's worth it........

It is possible for a 119 motor chain to slip a tooth or two, it happened to me. The upper guides had shattered and were not functioning. The chain was loose enough to slap the bottom of the valve cover, which was probably happening on start up before the tensioner had built up pressure. It is a very difficult thing to diagnose as it throws off no fault codes. The car just doesn't run well - it idles poorly and lacks power. Thinking I was looking for one bad cylinder I tried pulling spark plug wires to look for a change in idle. But there were several cylinders that without spark had no impact on the idle. I don't know if the chain had slipped one tooth or two but there was no damage to the engine. The car has been fine ever since getting a new chain and tensioner. The only way to find the problem was to remove the valve covers. I wouldn't think you'd want to consider the car without doing at least that much.

I've done all the number crunching--think I'll pull the trigger. Heres what I think the odds are:

15% chance: No valve damage, install new chain, guides, and tensioner and let er rip....

75% chance: Valve impact on right cylinder bank, do the above plus rebuild right head with a couple new valves and let er rip...

10% chance: Valve breakage and cylinder damage. Don't want to think about this to much....but then again, I could use a winter project.......

Anybody else care to make a guess.......

FWIW...

The M117 will start and run on only 4 cylinders (one bank). It will run like absolute garbage, but it will run. I assume the M119 is no different. Expect anything.

Why would you want to buy a car like that? There has to be several, reasonably priced well under $10K, 94' E420s that run near perfect with clean titles without all the issues and mystery. This one sounds like a nitemare, doesn't it? :eek:

A friend needed to re-build his 92' 500Es M119 recently ....it was probably half the present value of the car to do it....and he did on wholesale part prices with an off-duty MB wrench.

If the compression is good, the noise may be a camshaft oil tube blown out.

I'm considering it because the purchase price would be in the $2,100 to $2,300 range. (Current counter offer on the table is $2,300) I recently did the head gasket/valves on one of my E320's--I was satisfied with the machine shop I used and would use them again on this project. Parts for the 15% chance scenario would be just under $600. If I have to rebuild the right head I figured an additional $700 or so.

All that aside, the real reason I'm considering this is that I have a teenage son that I'm trying to keep in the garage instead of a lot of other places I'd rather he not be.......I'll buy the parts if he wrenches it together. If he gets it running and keeps it that way I'll turn the title over to him when he graduates from High School.

I'd ask my wife if I'm nuts to consider this but it was partly her idea. What do you all think?

By the way, my son reads this board.....

For what it's worth...

Yes it is possible for the 119 engine to jump time, although as mentioned earlier, it's often more catastrophic. Those I've seen have not been in running order. The ones I've spent time with were both damaged to the point that the engines were locked up, however, when all was said and done, they required no cylinder head work, so that might be in your favor. The parts list is long, and includes several not directly related parts, but the sort that you'll find yourself doing while you're in there (needed a water pump, perhaps air filters, sparkplugs while you're at it... that sort of thing, there's always something...). The parts lists averaged about $2400 (retail) on the last two we did. Your costs may be cheaper, but those are what they paid, and those prices are more than a year old.

For myself, would I do it? No. I would not pay more than $500 for a salvage titled car, nor would I ever buy a salvaged titled car with the intention of using it for anything other than parts. There will always be something else wrong with it... Would I undertake the job you're describing? No. And that's considering that I am a professional MBZ tech, and can buy my parts at cost. Although to be fair, I also have no desire, nor place in my life for a Mercedes Benz passenger car.

Please consider all aspects carefully, and decide for yourself, the only thing I will tell you NOT to do, is buy the car, take it home, tear it apart, decide it's too much, and then pack it all, or most anyway, into boxes and tow it to your nearby MBZ tech... And expect him to only charge you half because "you already did half the work!".

MV

Thanks very much for the reply.

The vehicle has a clear title, when I said I was considering a "salvage" it was only because it is in non running condition. (bad terminology on my part) If I do take this thing home, take it apart and decide I"m in over my head I will have only myself to blame. The end result would be a "parting out" or a donation to the local charity. (yes, they do accept cars--my 1983 Honda accord bought new and driven for 17 years suffered this ultimate demise) I would never expect a professional mechanic to clean up my mess.

I will admit I regularly question my sanity. That's why I look to others for help. If I commit to this project I'll keep you all updated on how it goes......

So, anything? Did you indeed purchase the car? Undertake the work? What's the conclusion to this story?

MV

Sorry I didn't post a followup sooner.

My son and I went to look at this car. The body and interior were in very poor shape. We concluded it would not be worth the the time and money to bring it back to running condition. (The condition of this car was misrepresented by the seller. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.) We are however still looking for a "project" car.

J. M. van Swaay