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  #271  
Old 11-21-2005, 06:49 AM
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For a car that many have referred to as "overengineered,' "engineered with a cost is no factor mindset," "last great MB," "made by engineers and not accountants," it is absolutely appauling. You'd think those engineers could get those things correct, especially simple things like gaskets and evaporator cores. For comparison, I have yet to read of a W126, which are now very old cars with the newest W126 model available in the US and most countries being a 14 year old car today, having an evaporator core replaced so early. Even lesser engineered GM and Ford products don't carry so many flaws around with them.

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  #272  
Old 11-21-2005, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braverichard
Car magazines... general opinion... rubbish! Especially when the people dishing out their opinions will never afford the cars they are rumbling about, even after the cars are 10 years old!!

Oops... I guess I have to clarify WHICH car magazines I was referring my comments from: CAR (England), Auto Motor und Sport (Germany), and Automobile (France).

If I were basing my thoughts from sources like Motor Trend, Road & Track and/or Consumer Reports, I would have totally agree with you. But, most writers from the European magazines I suscribe to do either own or drive daily such vehicles as S-classes and Porches.

I also agree that the W140 errors on design such as the evaporator or the engine long block on the 3.5 diesel are just plain horrible on a car with such a price tag and pedigree. But, everything else is so well executed and unique (at the time) that it really made the car special.

Besides, nothing is perfect. I bought a brand new Lincoln Mark VII LSC in 1986 which in less than eight months and under 6,000 miles had the entire electrical system failed. The warranty repair runned up to US$4,500.00 at the time and of course I sold the car before the warranty expired.
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  #273  
Old 11-22-2005, 04:42 AM
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Yes indeed, I was speaking about US car magazines such as those listed. But even the crazy Euro magazines aren't so accurate. The W220 may have faced criticisms but that's because MB actually got realistic, reduced prices, made the car on a budget and delivered a product far more efficient, sporty and friendly than any W140. The sales are a great indicator of the success of the model. It was the kind of product people wanted. The oversize, "overengineered" S-Class had become a sign of excess and even the S-Class buyers wanted something different. Additionally, to attract a new generation of now ageing people who are hitting their wealth highs in the USA, it was time to present something they'd like. Even in Europe, the W140's size meant it wasn't as popular as the W126. With the W220, MB aimed to get that popularity back.

People keep saying that this new S-Class is returning to aspects of the W140. May be true, but look at how it is being done. The new design looks more Italian than German from the sides, it is still an electronic house one wheels, is much sportier and handles way better than it would be expected of a vehicle of its size, etc. All attributes carried over from the W220. Aspects such as increased dimensions and weight may seem more like going back towards the W140 but then again, every new car today grows in those aspects.

Your problems with your Lincoln aren't shocking... it is a Lincoln! Not a benchmark for anything so, well, it is more acceptable than in a Benz. Hell, any form of flawed work is unacceptable in a Benz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Rosich

I also agree that the W140 errors on design such as the evaporator or the engine long block on the 3.5 diesel are just plain horrible on a car with such a price tag and pedigree. But, everything else is so well executed and unique (at the time) that it really made the car special.
Let me speak to you frankly here. I know you're a big time lover of the W140, especially the S500 you own. Yes, this thread is over 18 pages long and you've mostly kept it alive by posting once in a while bashing the W220 and singing the praises for the W140. Many people have come and gone on it but you're still here thanks to your love for the car/chassis. The W220 was also very unique when it came out. It brought several new features along with it. Some cost cutting is visible in the interior but that's ok for a company that for over 90 years was building cars without strict budgets and all of a sudden had to quit doing that and start doing the opposite. Not to mention that several of the new features more than made up for it. Overall, I say the W220 is a better car actually when everything is put together. I wish we could create a table and assign points for each aspect of the cars and see which one ends up with the most points. Hey, maybe we should try that!
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  #274  
Old 11-23-2005, 12:19 PM
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Your post above is one of the main reasons I love this forum: open, sincere and respectful opinions expressed by members on interesting subjects on which they might disagree.

I sincerely respect and acknowledge your opinions favoring the W220, in the same way you do my opinions on the W140.

It is obvious by my replies on this thread and others my admiration and love for the W140. My S 500 L has been really one of many joys in my life.

I should note that yesterday, for the first time, I saw in real life a W221. The car is at the local dealership. The model will be officially introduceb tomorrow at a big party.

The first impression I got when I saw such a beatiful beast was its size (it really recaptures the imposing presence of the W140). When I got inside I was impressed by its interior space (i.e. W140) and the quality of all materials (i.e. W140). Basically agreeing with all comments on the press.

Just for fun, with a cousin I went with, we jumped into the W221, then into a W220, then into my W140 and then back again into the W221. We both agree there is no contest: the W140 and the W221 both win hands down on all items considered. Funny thing: all of the sales staff and some of the mechanics around agreed with us.

I really hate to sound that I am repeating myself, but to me is a clear fact: the W220 deviated from the original S-class soul and motto. The W221 is a the clearest proof of that.
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  #275  
Old 11-23-2005, 12:33 PM
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"The first impression I got when I saw such a beatiful beast was its size (it really recaptures the imposing presence of the W140). When I got inside I was impressed by its interior space (i.e. W140) and the quality of all materials (i.e. W140). Basically agreeing with all comments on the press"

I wonder if it will bring back the reliability of the 126?

Don't get me wrong...I loved my 140.....it did so many things well...however had the $20K worth or repairs come out of my pocket I think I would feel very differently.

I think the 220 was a nice car..I have not spent much time driving them..just some short test drives....however it handled well and the price semed to be inline with the market...and since it set sales records over the 140 I think that means the public liked it.....but I think the 126 outsold the 140 also(someone correct me if this is not true)

I don't think the market is going to stand unreliable luxury cars...those that are will have the resale value of a sinking stone...look at the values of even the latter 140's...there are some incredible deals on 98-99 S500's out there
..The Lexus Brand has raised the bar on short and long term reliablilty...I think people trust a 10 year old Lexus more than they do a 10 year old 140..or even a 210 for that matter


Warren
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2000 BMW 740I
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  #276  
Old 11-23-2005, 01:37 PM
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Warren,

I'm glad you brought the issue of reliability/durability here. It has been widely stated in the press that the W221 will be MB's last chance to show that it is truly the king of the auto industry after it started it over 100 years ago. Lexus and several Infinit cars actually have better resale values than MBs. Part of the reason for that is because the MBs were ultra expensive when new, and like someone else stated somewhere on this forum, no one wants to buy a mass produced 4 year old car for $90,000. The price has to be lower for such a car to be sold, so the MBs will inevitably suffer in resale value. The problem then is, why are even cheaper MBs, the E, CLK, SLK, C, etc classes having worse resale values than Lexus, Infiniti and even some Acura cars? Well, reliability my friends, reliability. When cars develop reputations for costing a whole lot to own, their resale values plunge. Heck, I'm surprised that the MBs even have the resale values they have today. They should be much lower, but they aren't thanks to that three pointed star.

If MB blows the reliability of the W221 then there may not be much else that even the old reputation can provide. So it better be as reliable as the W126 as you asked.

Regarding sales figures, I believe 700,000 W126s were sold over 15 years - 1979 to 1994 in some countries, though most countries only had new W126s for 12 years, 1979 to 1991. Only 350,000 W140s were sold in 8 years (1991 - 1999) and over 550,000 W220s have been sold to date over 6 years. More importantly, W220 warranty claims are lower than W140 claims so far and the W220 actually turned a profit on its investment in 2003 - better than the W140 which never actually made a profit. It was surprising to read that because the AIRMATIC on the W220 is very troublesome and expensive to repair and the W220 also has more pricey electronic gizmos than the W140. But that's that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Rosich
Your post above is one of the main reasons I love this forum: open, sincere and respectful opinions expressed by members on interesting subjects on which they might disagree.
I share the same sentiments. We can agree to disagree on these issues (W140 vs. W220). It has been fun and rewarding to read all your comments as you seem to be a library of W140 information.
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  #277  
Old 11-26-2005, 04:26 PM
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Can't believe that this thread has been going on so long! I just have to say that everytime I sit in new cars I'm appauled at the lack of quality of interior parts as well as cheap paint (major orange peel) vs my 92 400e.
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  #278  
Old 12-04-2005, 04:08 AM
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Where are you shopping?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich126
So, basically, I'd have to spend over $40k to enjoy the same maintenance free service I should plan to get out of the car I already have. The 140 is updated and full of interior gadgets, but I don't see a dramatic improvement... maybe its just me (I kind of like springy seats, a huge steering wheel, and a transmission shift that can spill your coffee)

Financial Discussion:

I first test drove a 140 5 years and 2 W126's ago, back when I figured it would be the next car I would buy, and assumed I should be able to afford one. Boy was I wrong: I bought a 10 year old, near mint 420SEL with 120k in 1997 for $9000, the car listed for $53,050 new, which translates to paying 17% of MSRP. The car was one generation old.

vs.:

Its almost 2002 - so a 1992 400SE, with approximately 120k miles, which listed on the lot 10 years ago for $77,900 should be $13,243 assuming the same devaluation. ($77,900 x 17% = $13,243) The car is, like in the above example, one generation old. I have yet to find one less than $18,000 - and that gets you a real "rat" of a car; one which will undoubtedly require major work in the forseeable future.

Has anyone else considered this analysis before?
Look in the southern, CA market... W140 cars are CHEAP... I mean I found a NICE CLEAN 1993 300SE with around 120K on it... Own Owner car from the retirement area of nor cal... they were asking 6600.00 for the car. And I Was seeing pretty nice V8 cars (400's) for under 10K... If you want a nice MBZ with some higher freeway miles on it... Check out southern, CA. We have a great market for nice BMW's and Mercedes for reasonable prices cause the market here is SO flooded with them. Just a little bit of info to ad.

Good luck on the car search guys and happy debating...

Aaron
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  #279  
Old 12-04-2005, 06:54 AM
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Thanks for the tip.
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  #280  
Old 12-15-2005, 03:45 PM
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W140 Lover to the bone

Guys, I have been reading this thread for a couple of months now and I just have to weigh in. I have had a W140 for two years now and I love that car. Actually I have two of them. I bought my wife a 99 S420 about 2-1/2 years ago and liked it so much I found myself a similar vehicle in the 97 S320. I call my S320 my "Sport Tank with an Attitude". Super stable on the road and can run with just about anything out there. It does have a few reliability issues, but for a DIY-er like me, that is a small price to pay. I just wish I could get my hands on a good repair manual that covers the accessories as well as the primary systems.

As for the newer S class models, I am woefully uninformed. I usually wait at least 5 years before even shopping for MB so I can take advantage of the steep initial depreciation. See there is a silver lining to the low resale value issue.
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  #281  
Old 12-16-2005, 09:45 AM
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So what about the new 2007 model? Looks like a Maybach, has features and technology up the wazoo, and is one of the largest S-Class models ever.


Will it restore the lustre and cache to the S-CLass badge? I want one, I just don't have a spare $160k right now. http://www.mbusa.com/microsite/s-class/index.jsp

-gil
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  #282  
Old 04-06-2006, 11:29 PM
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opinions sought

There are 2 '94 S500 coupes for sale in my area, one silver/grey, one emerald/parchment
Silver 125K, $14.9
Green 100K, $15.9

Both are too high, I know, and I would have my mechanic check them out thoroughly.

My dilemma: I love my '89 300CE (black/grey, 97.5K, paid for...) but I couldn't own both.

140s seem to be coming into their own. I don't need a big sedan (have one), but am not interested in SLs either. Thought about an SEC when I bought the CE. But C140 intrigues me. I drove a '94 S600 a couple of months ago (78K for $18K, fairly good deal)--man, what a great car but I knew I couldn't deal with 12 cylinders. 8...not so bad.

Any opinion welcome. I know, for instance, that the seat belt retractors on the silver car don't work--I imagine it's a fortune to fix--that's what makes me nervous. C124 are definitely affordable to keep up.

Anyway, thanks,
JOHN
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  #283  
Old 04-07-2006, 02:13 AM
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Take a good look at this member's home page:

http://pages.prodigy.net/jforgione/MB_S500.html

It should clarify everything and then some more you need to know about a C140.

My personal opinion: the C124 is one of the best designed and proportioned coupes on the road, ever. I love the C140 too, although to mee it just looks a little bit thick on the C-pillar region from certain angles. Besides that, it is the King of all Coupes! Power and ride wise is miles and years ahead of a C124.

The green/parchment option sounds like a dream made in heaven (I really like that color combination, very popular in certain countries, not the U.S. though). The seat belt retractor is a common fault on C140s, expensive to fix if just exchaning parts for new ones, not that expensive if creative and send the faulty plastic parts to be made in copper as some owners have done here.

Certain aspects of the W140 reliability are sensible ($), although I do agree with JimF about being one of the most reliable, if not THE most reliable Benz I have ever owned.

The 2007 W221 is certainly a beauty. Reliable? Well, the model have been already around for a while in Germany and most worldwide markets and it appears to be better assembled than the W220, although I have already heard some horror stories about early 7-speed auto transmissions. Definitely wait two years on the matter and get back to discussion...

Is the W221 one of the largest S-classes ever made? Well, it is within just fractions of an inch in all directions compared with the W140. Hence both models should be two of the largerst S-classes ever made. The W221 just looks smaller compared to the slab-sided W140 (optical trick).
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Last edited by A. Rosich; 04-07-2006 at 02:25 AM.
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  #284  
Old 11-05-2006, 11:44 PM
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What to look for in a used W220?

I'm considering buying one and am wondering what, besides the Airmatic suspension, are weak spots and things to watch? Do the cars generally get more realiable as the the model years progress?
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  #285  
Old 05-30-2007, 08:48 PM
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w140

Did you or have you had any squeaking or creaking from the front end?

I just got the squeaking and mine has 90,000miles, I ;m not sure what it is


Quote:
Originally Posted by ibeaver View Post
For those of us who own a W140: Model? Year? Options? How many miles? Comments? I'll start:

Year/model: '94 S500
Color combo: Smoke Silver/Parchment
Mileage: 106,110 miles
Options: Power rear window sunshade/manual rear side shades, integrated mobile phone w/deluxe handset, 6 disc cd changer
Comments: Probably the best Mercedes-Benz I have ever owned. It runs perfectly and aside from a few minor issues over the years the car is still a joy to drive! As far as I'm concerned it's barely broken in. . .

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