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#271
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For a car that many have referred to as "overengineered,' "engineered with a cost is no factor mindset," "last great MB," "made by engineers and not accountants," it is absolutely appauling. You'd think those engineers could get those things correct, especially simple things like gaskets and evaporator cores. For comparison, I have yet to read of a W126, which are now very old cars with the newest W126 model available in the US and most countries being a 14 year old car today, having an evaporator core replaced so early. Even lesser engineered GM and Ford products don't carry so many flaws around with them.
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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen 1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver 2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver |
#272
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Quote:
Oops... I guess I have to clarify WHICH car magazines I was referring my comments from: CAR (England), Auto Motor und Sport (Germany), and Automobile (France). If I were basing my thoughts from sources like Motor Trend, Road & Track and/or Consumer Reports, I would have totally agree with you. But, most writers from the European magazines I suscribe to do either own or drive daily such vehicles as S-classes and Porches. I also agree that the W140 errors on design such as the evaporator or the engine long block on the 3.5 diesel are just plain horrible on a car with such a price tag and pedigree. But, everything else is so well executed and unique (at the time) that it really made the car special. Besides, nothing is perfect. I bought a brand new Lincoln Mark VII LSC in 1986 which in less than eight months and under 6,000 miles had the entire electrical system failed. The warranty repair runned up to US$4,500.00 at the time and of course I sold the car before the warranty expired.
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A. Rosich CL 500, 1998 S 500 L, 1998 E 320 T, 1995 [Sadly sold ] |
#273
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Yes indeed, I was speaking about US car magazines such as those listed. But even the crazy Euro magazines aren't so accurate. The W220 may have faced criticisms but that's because MB actually got realistic, reduced prices, made the car on a budget and delivered a product far more efficient, sporty and friendly than any W140. The sales are a great indicator of the success of the model. It was the kind of product people wanted. The oversize, "overengineered" S-Class had become a sign of excess and even the S-Class buyers wanted something different. Additionally, to attract a new generation of now ageing people who are hitting their wealth highs in the USA, it was time to present something they'd like. Even in Europe, the W140's size meant it wasn't as popular as the W126. With the W220, MB aimed to get that popularity back.
People keep saying that this new S-Class is returning to aspects of the W140. May be true, but look at how it is being done. The new design looks more Italian than German from the sides, it is still an electronic house one wheels, is much sportier and handles way better than it would be expected of a vehicle of its size, etc. All attributes carried over from the W220. Aspects such as increased dimensions and weight may seem more like going back towards the W140 but then again, every new car today grows in those aspects. Your problems with your Lincoln aren't shocking... it is a Lincoln! Not a benchmark for anything so, well, it is more acceptable than in a Benz. Hell, any form of flawed work is unacceptable in a Benz. Quote:
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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen 1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver 2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver |
#274
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Your post above is one of the main reasons I love this forum: open, sincere and respectful opinions expressed by members on interesting subjects on which they might disagree.
I sincerely respect and acknowledge your opinions favoring the W220, in the same way you do my opinions on the W140. It is obvious by my replies on this thread and others my admiration and love for the W140. My S 500 L has been really one of many joys in my life. I should note that yesterday, for the first time, I saw in real life a W221. The car is at the local dealership. The model will be officially introduceb tomorrow at a big party. The first impression I got when I saw such a beatiful beast was its size (it really recaptures the imposing presence of the W140). When I got inside I was impressed by its interior space (i.e. W140) and the quality of all materials (i.e. W140). Basically agreeing with all comments on the press. Just for fun, with a cousin I went with, we jumped into the W221, then into a W220, then into my W140 and then back again into the W221. We both agree there is no contest: the W140 and the W221 both win hands down on all items considered. Funny thing: all of the sales staff and some of the mechanics around agreed with us. I really hate to sound that I am repeating myself, but to me is a clear fact: the W220 deviated from the original S-class soul and motto. The W221 is a the clearest proof of that.
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A. Rosich CL 500, 1998 S 500 L, 1998 E 320 T, 1995 [Sadly sold ] |
#275
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"The first impression I got when I saw such a beatiful beast was its size (it really recaptures the imposing presence of the W140). When I got inside I was impressed by its interior space (i.e. W140) and the quality of all materials (i.e. W140). Basically agreeing with all comments on the press"
I wonder if it will bring back the reliability of the 126? Don't get me wrong...I loved my 140.....it did so many things well...however had the $20K worth or repairs come out of my pocket I think I would feel very differently. I think the 220 was a nice car..I have not spent much time driving them..just some short test drives....however it handled well and the price semed to be inline with the market...and since it set sales records over the 140 I think that means the public liked it.....but I think the 126 outsold the 140 also(someone correct me if this is not true) I don't think the market is going to stand unreliable luxury cars...those that are will have the resale value of a sinking stone...look at the values of even the latter 140's...there are some incredible deals on 98-99 S500's out there ..The Lexus Brand has raised the bar on short and long term reliablilty...I think people trust a 10 year old Lexus more than they do a 10 year old 140..or even a 210 for that matter Warren 1992 300SD(sold) 2000 BMW 740I Columbus Ohio |
#276
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Warren,
I'm glad you brought the issue of reliability/durability here. It has been widely stated in the press that the W221 will be MB's last chance to show that it is truly the king of the auto industry after it started it over 100 years ago. Lexus and several Infinit cars actually have better resale values than MBs. Part of the reason for that is because the MBs were ultra expensive when new, and like someone else stated somewhere on this forum, no one wants to buy a mass produced 4 year old car for $90,000. The price has to be lower for such a car to be sold, so the MBs will inevitably suffer in resale value. The problem then is, why are even cheaper MBs, the E, CLK, SLK, C, etc classes having worse resale values than Lexus, Infiniti and even some Acura cars? Well, reliability my friends, reliability. When cars develop reputations for costing a whole lot to own, their resale values plunge. Heck, I'm surprised that the MBs even have the resale values they have today. They should be much lower, but they aren't thanks to that three pointed star. If MB blows the reliability of the W221 then there may not be much else that even the old reputation can provide. So it better be as reliable as the W126 as you asked. Regarding sales figures, I believe 700,000 W126s were sold over 15 years - 1979 to 1994 in some countries, though most countries only had new W126s for 12 years, 1979 to 1991. Only 350,000 W140s were sold in 8 years (1991 - 1999) and over 550,000 W220s have been sold to date over 6 years. More importantly, W220 warranty claims are lower than W140 claims so far and the W220 actually turned a profit on its investment in 2003 - better than the W140 which never actually made a profit. It was surprising to read that because the AIRMATIC on the W220 is very troublesome and expensive to repair and the W220 also has more pricey electronic gizmos than the W140. But that's that. Quote:
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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen 1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver 2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver |
#277
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Can't believe that this thread has been going on so long! I just have to say that everytime I sit in new cars I'm appauled at the lack of quality of interior parts as well as cheap paint (major orange peel) vs my 92 400e.
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#278
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Where are you shopping?
Quote:
Good luck on the car search guys and happy debating... Aaron
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2000 BMW 323ci 96K 1986 300SDL Turbo 421K (head rebuild/gasket at 411K) 1967 250SE with really rare options needs some motor work 1977 240D automatic - gave to little brother, he now has the 'diesel love' is Turbo240 on this forum 1995 Lifted Ford Explorer XLT 4x4 173K (sold) *** Next year would love a PO 2004-2005 M3 SMG and when a biz deal pays off, a nice used Porsche Cayenne S. http://www.museum-mercedes-benz.com/?lang=en http://www.mbusa.com/heritage/classic-center-california.do |
#279
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Thanks for the tip.
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1999 Mercedes-Benz S600, 103K miles - garage queen 1988 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL, 89K miles - daily driver 2007 Hyundai Sonata Limited, 31K - daily driver |
#280
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W140 Lover to the bone
Guys, I have been reading this thread for a couple of months now and I just have to weigh in. I have had a W140 for two years now and I love that car. Actually I have two of them. I bought my wife a 99 S420 about 2-1/2 years ago and liked it so much I found myself a similar vehicle in the 97 S320. I call my S320 my "Sport Tank with an Attitude". Super stable on the road and can run with just about anything out there. It does have a few reliability issues, but for a DIY-er like me, that is a small price to pay. I just wish I could get my hands on a good repair manual that covers the accessories as well as the primary systems.
As for the newer S class models, I am woefully uninformed. I usually wait at least 5 years before even shopping for MB so I can take advantage of the steep initial depreciation. See there is a silver lining to the low resale value issue.
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KCScout 98 S420 My Wife's Baby 97 S320 My road car 83 300D My old road car (love that diesel) 81 300SD Wife's former Baby 81 240D A fun stick shifter 71 220D My first one |
#281
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So what about the new 2007 model? Looks like a Maybach, has features and technology up the wazoo, and is one of the largest S-Class models ever.
Will it restore the lustre and cache to the S-CLass badge? I want one, I just don't have a spare $160k right now. http://www.mbusa.com/microsite/s-class/index.jsp -gil |
#282
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opinions sought
There are 2 '94 S500 coupes for sale in my area, one silver/grey, one emerald/parchment
Silver 125K, $14.9 Green 100K, $15.9 Both are too high, I know, and I would have my mechanic check them out thoroughly. My dilemma: I love my '89 300CE (black/grey, 97.5K, paid for...) but I couldn't own both. 140s seem to be coming into their own. I don't need a big sedan (have one), but am not interested in SLs either. Thought about an SEC when I bought the CE. But C140 intrigues me. I drove a '94 S600 a couple of months ago (78K for $18K, fairly good deal)--man, what a great car but I knew I couldn't deal with 12 cylinders. 8...not so bad. Any opinion welcome. I know, for instance, that the seat belt retractors on the silver car don't work--I imagine it's a fortune to fix--that's what makes me nervous. C124 are definitely affordable to keep up. Anyway, thanks, JOHN |
#283
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Take a good look at this member's home page:
http://pages.prodigy.net/jforgione/MB_S500.html It should clarify everything and then some more you need to know about a C140. My personal opinion: the C124 is one of the best designed and proportioned coupes on the road, ever. I love the C140 too, although to mee it just looks a little bit thick on the C-pillar region from certain angles. Besides that, it is the King of all Coupes! Power and ride wise is miles and years ahead of a C124. The green/parchment option sounds like a dream made in heaven (I really like that color combination, very popular in certain countries, not the U.S. though). The seat belt retractor is a common fault on C140s, expensive to fix if just exchaning parts for new ones, not that expensive if creative and send the faulty plastic parts to be made in copper as some owners have done here. Certain aspects of the W140 reliability are sensible ($), although I do agree with JimF about being one of the most reliable, if not THE most reliable Benz I have ever owned. The 2007 W221 is certainly a beauty. Reliable? Well, the model have been already around for a while in Germany and most worldwide markets and it appears to be better assembled than the W220, although I have already heard some horror stories about early 7-speed auto transmissions. Definitely wait two years on the matter and get back to discussion... Is the W221 one of the largest S-classes ever made? Well, it is within just fractions of an inch in all directions compared with the W140. Hence both models should be two of the largerst S-classes ever made. The W221 just looks smaller compared to the slab-sided W140 (optical trick).
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A. Rosich CL 500, 1998 S 500 L, 1998 E 320 T, 1995 [Sadly sold ] Last edited by A. Rosich; 04-07-2006 at 02:25 AM. |
#284
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What to look for in a used W220?
I'm considering buying one and am wondering what, besides the Airmatic suspension, are weak spots and things to watch? Do the cars generally get more realiable as the the model years progress?
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Thanks, Joey '88 560SL Pearl Black/Java 152K '94 E320 Anthracite/Grey 89K Previously: '94 E420 Black/Bamboo '90 300E '71 280SEL 4.5 |
#285
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w140
Did you or have you had any squeaking or creaking from the front end?
I just got the squeaking and mine has 90,000miles, I ;m not sure what it is Quote:
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