1987 300E key stuck in ignition - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

John Plut · #46 02-10-2009, 09:24 PM

The tool for removing the cylinder needs to have a bevel on it. I used a piece of metal coat hanger and filed a nice long bevel. A bike spoke might be too hard to file, but a grinder would probably work.

When you insert the tool, the straight side (without bevel) should be flat against the cylinder and the beveled side away from it, that way the point can get behind the retainer clip and open it up. If you don't have the correct bevel, you won't be able to insert the tool past the clip.

cliffmac · #47 02-10-2009, 09:39 PM

really, that's a chronic problem then eh? On our 1990 300TE the damn original key stopped working for apparently no reason, doors, hatch and ignition, just stopped working. Went and got a new key from the dealer (took a week) and it's fine. I have looked at the original key (doesn't work) and the new key (works fine) and I swear, I cannot see the difference. The cool thing was the dealership was doing inventory or something and somehow felt we had paid for the new key, when in fact, we hadn't. Gotta be honest, we didn't say **** and walked out....I can still compare the non-working key to the working key and I cannot see any visible difference...I swear, I can't.....

stuckon1st · #48 02-11-2009, 12:49 AM

I think I am fighting a losing battle.
My son and his friend had lost my key so I went to the dealership and they cut me an original.
Tried the original and it didn't work. Probably due to wear and tear of the tumbler. Anyway, I never tried the sander method and bit the bullet and used a screw driver to snap the tumbler (to what I think is in position 1 now).
So now I cannot go back. I will try filing a longer point on the bike spokes and have them positioned facing away from the tumbler and towards the collar.
Not an easy fit which makes me think that I have not aligned the tumbler correctly to position 1. I used a paper clip as it is smaller just to see how deep I could go and then when I did go as far as I could, didn't 'feel' any thing moveable.
Also, while I am pressing down along the sides of the tumbler, should I be doing something to the collar? Turning it, prising it away from the shaft?

stuckon1st · #49 02-11-2009, 08:02 AM

I decided to separate the tool I had made into 2. This way I can work at least one hole at a time.
I 'think' I am getting through to the end but I have seen postings saying that i need to go down to the end of the collar. I am getting down to about 3/4 inch. Or is this where the latch is and hence why i can't get any further?
What I have also noticed is that if I place one one the tools into 1 hole, I cannot fit the other tool in the other hole..
I use a paper clip on the second hole just to make sure I am lined up correctly, and the paper clip goes in as far as the other tool in the first hole. So I know that I am aligned.
I made my tool from a bike spoke, shaved it into a nice angle, even shaved a bit off the shaft so it could go into the 2nd hole - but alas it will not.
It seems as though placing the tool in the first hole has caused the tumbler to push against the collar directly opposite - where the other hole is.
I have seen some photos of the tumbler and collar out, but does anyone have any pictures to show me what the latch looks like so I can see what I am dealing with when it comes to trying to dislodge it.
Finally, could I use a hacksaw and cut my way through the collar (half way up) so then i could get a better picture of what i am looking at.
I feel that even after WD-40 it may be that the latches are just stuck (after 20+ years)??

stuckon1st · #50 02-11-2009, 11:15 AM

Been doing some more reading and wiggling....
If I put one of the tools into the hole, it seems to tighten the tumbler inside the collar - because i then cannot get the other tool into the other hole. I am only able to get a safety pin into the second hole.
Has anyone had this before?
Also, because I had to pry the key hole to position 1 with a screwdriver, I am now able to freely rotate the front part of the keyhole. If i look into the barrel, it doesn't move. So if I did have the key and moved it to pos 1, the whole tumbler would rotate - not just the front part.
I am starting to think that snapping the front part of the key hole and aligning to position 1 has been a redherring and because the whole tumbler is not in position 1, the latches will never dislodge.
Can someone confirm or deny this.?
Thanks all for your comments as well.

pawoSD · #51 02-11-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cliffmac

really, that's a chronic problem then eh? On our 1990 300TE the damn original key stopped working for apparently no reason, doors, hatch and ignition, just stopped working. Went and got a new key from the dealer (took a week) and it's fine. I have looked at the original key (doesn't work) and the new key (works fine) and I swear, I cannot see the difference. The cool thing was the dealership was doing inventory or something and somehow felt we had paid for the new key, when in fact, we hadn't. Gotta be honest, we didn't say **** and walked out....I can still compare the non-working key to the working key and I cannot see any visible difference...I swear, I can't.....

Dishonesty is why our society is the way it is.

John Plut · #52 02-11-2009, 08:42 PM

I'm sorry, but I described the taper incorrectly in my last post.

The taper must be on the cylinder side so as you slide in the tool, it pushes it compresses the spring retainer. I'm looking at the tool I used on my '88 260e. Another thing to note is that although there are two holes for the tool to enter, only one has a retainer spring, the other hole doesn't seem to do anything.

The depth of the retainer spring from the face of the silver key slot is 1-inch.

My suggestion is to make a u-shaped tool from a coat hanger with 4-inch long legs spaced 1-inch apart. bevel the inside tips with 1/4-inch tapers. The tool should insert a little over an inch deep, then squeeze the two legs together to help compress the retainer. The trick is that you also need to pull outward on the cylinder while squeezing the tool.

Hope this helps.

stuckon1st · #53 02-12-2009, 07:35 AM

I still am unable to fit into both holes the tool at the same time.
As I said in my previous post, if I insert the tool into one of the holes, it seems to push the tumbler against the collar and thus reducing the gap on the opposite hole for me to insert the other part of the tool.
I am still not clear on the detailed steps of what to do when I have inserted the tool (into the slot that has the latch - which one is that?)
Do I try to leve the tumbler forward while trying to untwist the tumbler?
At worst, can I drill the tumbler out?

stuckon1st · #54 02-12-2009, 03:30 PM

Okay, after more reading, trying something else, then more reading and trying something else again, I figured out that I had the bloody position in 0 not 1.
I read some post about the hole being at the 2 o'clock position.
So now that I am pretty sure I have the holes aligned, I am now able to insert the tool into both holes at the same time.. good so far.
However, now that I WD-40'd it to death, I still can't manage to catch the latch - or at least I don't think I am. I have looked at tumbler pictures but still cant find any that show close up the latch itself. Would like to see what I am trying to dislodge.
Question: It's a 300E 1985 model and I have a feeling that this tumbler only has one latch - even though it has 2 holes. (Can someone confirm this).
What I would like to know is, if and when I manage to dislodge the latch, what should I do?
Do I try to pry the tumbler out through the collar or do I pry the tumbler out and at the same time try to unscrew the collar?
What should the sequence of events be ?

stuckon1st · #55 02-14-2009, 12:05 PM

Still trying but to no avail.
My wires are now going down about 1 and 3/4 inches into the holes.
I have used separate wires because I don't know why they have to be attached. It makes it easier to jiggle each one individually.
So if i have gone down this far, do I assume i have passed the latches. Do I need to go further and depress something else?
Do I need

stuckon1st · #56 02-14-2009, 12:08 PM

I didn't finish my post.
Most importantly do I need to release, break something else?????
In the earlier post there was something about chiseling out the part to allow the collar to rotate...
where is this piece and what is the impact if i do this when i need to replace it later?
****, I am effen frustrated. Again, I have a 1985 300E. I assume that the holes are at 2:00pm and 7pm approx.
Do I need to depress the latches at the same time.

compress ignite · #57 03-15-2009, 02:46 AM

I've this horrible premonition that all you did was "Break" the front of the tumbler.
(and you're gonna have to "Take the Road Less Traveled"...Removing
the Whole steering lock tube to be able to get to the Ignition Tumbler AND
replacing the SLT and the Tumbler)

You should press BOTH the "Legs" of the tool together to help push the detents.
AND press them towards each other.

Somewhere in the archives are instructions from one of the Ozzie members,who
ended up removing the "Guts" (spring and locking bolt) from his SLT ...then his
tumbler didn't have to "Throw" or "Retract"that 1Lb bolt every time the key was pulled out or inserted.

I believe the reference was to using a "chisel-like" hand tool to force the collar to turn(NOT the recommended approach).I think if the detents will not release with the angle ended u-shaped tool...you'd destroy the car trying to turn the collar by force.That collar is made of some materiel from another
Galaxy,It is the toughest piece of Metal I've ever run across.

ds190 · #58 03-15-2009, 01:26 PM

I just replaced the tumbler on my 91 300TE. Mine was very worn but I was able to have the key in position 1, the tumbler popped right out, and the new one turned right in. Lucky me.

I read some threads before doing the job, so here is some info stuckon1st was asking about that might help somebody else in the future.

The release wires go in to the holes at 2 and 7 o’clock about 45mm or 1 ¾ inches.

They must go in at the same time, which is why the tool is made in a U shape.

The 60 degree bevels on the wire ends do face in towards the tumbler.

The 2 o’clock hole presses a spring which keeps the tumbler aligned, but does really hold it in. The metal collar holds it in.

The metal collar has a ridge on it’s lower inside which clips it in place. It does not turn nor can it be unscrewed. The wire at both 2 and 7 o’clock press into detents in the switch/lock assembly which release the collar- BOTH wires have to press those slots at the same time to release the collar!

If the tumbler is completely immobile, it cannot be drilled out like USA cars. That outer lip on the metal collar is about 4-5 mm (about 1/8”) that securely holds that tumbler in- that’s the anti theft design.

In the worse case scenario, I would use a dremo moto tool with carbide wheels and small drill bits to remove as much of the metal collar outer lip as it surrounds the tumbler face, again about 5mm or 1/8”. With that lip gone, the tumbler could be yanked out with the slide hammer. Then there would be access to the two detents in the switch/lock assembly that when pressed would release the rest of the metal collar.

Hope this helps somebody later.

William73 · #59 02-06-2010, 10:40 PM

I'm writing this to help future readers in there attempt to replace there ignition lock cylinder. Mine was on a W124. Others might be different.
The post I'm quoting is the single most informative post I read on the topic, read it first then read what I added at the bottom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark2590

I don't know what is more important - to clarify what wrong information has presented, or what new information needs to be presented.

First: the 300E w124 is different than the others.

Buy a 1.5 - 2.0mm bike spoke. Bend in a square u about 4 inches long & with to be exactly the width of the 2 holes. File ends down to 60 degrees with angled faces facing each other - now taper the tips of the angled faces down a bit so that they fit in the little holes that we will be targeting. See, even filing the ends to a pin point at 60 degrees all the way around would be ideal because all we care about is hitting the small 2 holes at the very base of the collar that will pull in the two detents that are, presently pushing into the groove inside the collar. This tool will slide either above or below the 2 o'clock positioned tumbler clip about 3/4 inch in. We don't care about that because we want the collar out & the tumbler is easily removed after the collar. So, this very straight tool with pointed ends will slide down all the way (as deep as the collar), into the small holes & force inward the upper an lower detents that are presently engaged in the groove of the collar.

First, take 3 minutes to remove the plastic covering from the lock, pry with screwdriver from the left side near steering wheel, and the left cover by pulling off headlight switch & unscrewing large screw with electrician pliers, then 3 phillip head screws under parking break release, then 5 up & 2 under 5/15" hex nuts for lower knee kick area. 3 mins on & 3 minutes off. Do it.

You might get by with just the key plastic cover only if somehow your tool hits it right off. Nah, just do it.

First, if you have been on this for a while, sit back read & be dismayed...

No, the collar does not unscrew. No, 14g house wire or a paper clip will not help you, AND no, you don't worry worry about taking the tumbler and cylinder out as a set. How about this: NO, the little black clip on the tumbler is not your objective, and needs to have nothing to do with the removal. OK, lets go here: NO, NO, NO, don't even begin listening to the idea of pulling on the key for removing the tumbler and collar. You know what? YOU DO NEED the tool for both holes.

** The trick here is getting the collar off, and the tumbler (thus clip) has NOTHING to do with the collar's removel. This comes after - sure, they can come off together, but anyone reading this is struggling, so separate the issues!

8 hours on line, and 4 struggling with the car & how I wish I knew the aforementioned truths. Why all the false info? People have assumed that their Lock Cylinder is the same. WRONG.

OK, this is what I needed to know:

1. The tumbler slides into the switch housing, while the harded black collar covers the switch housing. The collar has a plastic coating, making it seem plastic, until hours of tugging & grabbing scratches the plastic off.

2. The collar is empty inside other than a groove lathed into the bottom (furthest from the key entry) end of it and a notch at the 9 o'clock position only to keep the position 1, 2, etc markings in place.

3. The tumbler can be taken out even if you don't depress the flimsy spring metal. THE FLIMSY SPRING METAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COLLAR REMOVAL.

4. SIMPLY: The job involves getting the hardened black collar off. Once off, then the tumbler unit will slide out when reinserting the tool, or pry out if the spring metal clip is (as was mine) is damaged.

Ok, for this lock, the black clip (only on the 2 o'clock position on the tumbler) is only to keep the tumbler from moving around or rattling.

SUMMARY & additional pointers.

This tool needs to be perfectly straight & exactly the same distance from each other as are the two holes while key / tumbler is in position one (can't get position one? read below) so that the prongs of this forked tool enter the holes while they are parallel to each other. First spray WD-40 in the holes with the red tube inserted all the way, then back out 1/8 inch. Do this for each & spray liberally (put towel under to catch the run off). This is not an optional step. As this tool slides in, the top prong will give a nudge near at the 3/4 mark as it passes above or below the tumbler clip. Another 3/4 inch past this, each prong of this forked tool will now, with light wiggling enter into the two detents holes. light wiggling of the collar while doing this will help the release of the detents that are pressing into grove.

All along, I knew it would help to have the collar able to spin. this is done by taking a thin small screw driver & chisling out the notch.. a very small notch - see red arrow.

Ok, this is going to cause some concern for those most versed (who had there chance to give photos & details) but here it goes: The shiney key entrance portion of the tumbler only needs to be in the #1 position for the holes to line up with the ignition switch portion into which the tumbler sits. STUCK KEY? BROKEN KEY? OR JUST CAN'T GET THE IGNITION TO MOVE to position #1? Well, why not just put a big screw driver in the key slot entry & force this front portion of the tumbler to turn (wrench on square shaft of screw driver) to where you want it. It will break from the rest of the tumbler, but heck, you are replacing it anyway with the ebay supplied tumbler ($50) anyway. I was shocked to discover that only the front portion of the tumbler needed to line up with the holes & that mercedes didn't figure this as they put so much effort into their megaGodzilla metal into the collar. I asked and asked this quiestion, and felt a bit stupid in doing so, because I assumed it too easy a way out of this - just force it & snap the front key entry from the rest of the tumbler.. how good is this?

So, after hours of research & drilling & wiggling & figuring, I prayed a new prayer in church, came home & simply inserted the tool again (after more WD-40) wiggled while wiggling (turning) right to left with my plumbers pliers on the collar & suddenly the collar started to turn (the notch had worn down some & one of the detents let loose, I turned further.. with my heart racing in anticipation of my son no longer bugging me to use my car, and low and behold, with a good grip, & a flat head screw driver behind the collar, at the base, it let loose.

I needed to know that there is nothing inside the collar, and that there was a groove in the end. I needed to know that there is no connection between the removal of the tumbler and the hardened collar. I needed to know that only the key entry portion of the tumbler needed to be in position one to get the tool to the end of the collar. I needed to know that my objective was to get the collar off and it would take a pair of pliers wiggling on it while in and out with my spoke - tool to get free it up & that it would still take some light prying to wiggle the collar for the first 3/8 inch. I needed to know that Jesus would be there every step of the way & that I would grow from this & that others would benefit as well.

** Please do not assume your model mercedes is like this - My guess is that the design of the collar is the tell-all, hence the reason for the good photos.

Now you know this, and with this, you can reach satisfaction or failure with much less frustration. Thanks to all who encouraged me to "carry on".

Oh, putting it back on. Put tumbler in collar. Put in key & put to position 1, Slide the tool over the black tumbler clip, then place the assembly into the ignition switch with one hand while depressing the rounded detents in all the way with your fingers, line up the collar notch-out with the ignition switch notch & press into place. Instead, you can press the tool in all the way & try to catch the detents with it, but you are begging for trouble, the detents do fall out & probably will - but they go righ back in. You'll know how to line up the tumbler because the groove in the ignition swich tumbler socket is obviousely placed.

I'm stoked.

Here are my additions

1. I found that it's true that your first goal is to remove the black collar. Forget about the lock cylinder! You'll get it out easy once the collar is off.

2. You truly can turn the silver colored disc the key goes into without turning the whole lock cylinder and it doesn't ruin it. There is a small roll pin that holds it in place. You can insert a large screw driver SLIGHTLY into the key slot and twist it with a good amount of force and it will sheer the roll pin.

3. I used TWO pins made from a coat hanger to release the collar. The type of hanger I used was the kind that has the cardboard tube. They are a little smaller than a standard wire coat hanger. I put about a 45 degree angle on the one end and I used a hammer to gentle tap it all the way in.

4. I didn't find it necessary to turn the black collar or even pull on it.

5. You do need to pry the collar off at it's base. I used a wood chisel and a hammer. First I taped it straight in until there was a bit of a gap, then I held the chisel at an angle and taped the collar off.

Note, With the lock cylinder NOT turned to the 1 position the cylinder wont come off easily. There are two small recesses at the bottom of the lock cylinder that will NOT be in the right place to allow the two levers that keep the cylinder from coming off to descend into the base.

ALSO! I did this without removing the ignition lock cylinder housing from the car.

compress ignite · #60 10-14-2010, 03:59 AM

http://www.michaelhyde.com/product_p/mb-cutter-tool-c.htm
$169.00
If you can't get the key to position number 1.