|
|
|
|
|
#31
09-20-2008, 04:37 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Get Lost..
You want to jump on my diagnostic threads, then you do the diagnostics on the next ones ..this is not the first time you pull this on me and other Techs. Barking up the wrong tree once again. We were doing aux fan sesnor resistor bridging way before you came along ..... You want to argue with your findings and a Chart that I take out of the Benz Manuals, feel free...but I don't care about YOUR experiments .. What I care about is diagnosing fellow members problems in as simplistic a way as possible w/o being an idiot over the exact tolerance factors and specs of a sensor. I leave that to you. If he was having a fan come on at 110 instead of 105, THEN I would get down to the fine points and calibration of the sensor...but his problem was NO FAN, so we went about the diagnosis just fine. You take the next POST and then I will Critique your diagnosis ...How's that, ????? You did the same thing back when I put out the led tool..telling everyone it would not work cuz it needed a dropping resistor, not realizing I already considered that and purposely had a part# for a 12v led ...remember that attack? I still do....you were real cool that time too.................and wrong. Forget it....do some diagnostic for a change.
__________________
A Dalton Last edited by Arthur Dalton; 09-20-2008 at 05:28 PM. Reason: sp 
|
|
#32
09-20-2008, 05:59 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
You're a good 'tech' and I'm the first to shout your abilities. But this is not about "you", it's about helping Ivan. So I guess anybody that helps Ivan other than you is . . jumping in on your diagnostic threads". Wow, sorry, thought we ALL were here to help.
We both helped Ivan. I gave him the sensors readings that allowed him to quickly diagnose the problem (post #23 and #24). Certainly you had 'worked-the-problem' up. Excellent work! It was not any of the above that was questioned, it was your statement about " . . production change to that sensor" to which you have not responded to (other than to rant!). You are obviously incorrect since the same sensor is used in a myriad of MB autos. If a change were made to that sensor, then it would have logistics and configuration control problems that would cost mega-bucks. What companies do when faced with that problem, is to 'pay-extra' so that the part remains the same. The vendors end up "throwing" marginal sensors away at test b/c they don't meet specs. Thus it costs more to produce, but that's cheaper than having to change all of the 'documents' for the using autos. And there are a lot of documents! So rant away about whatever you wish if that makes you happy but it's unbecoming to you.
|
|
#33
09-20-2008, 06:52 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Ok ...I will buy some of that...
..but don't think or claim for a second that aux fan sensors did not change on 124 chassis cuz it would be too costly, or other BS yada-yada, because there were 4 aux fan sensor changes on 124 chassis. ..and my rub with this whole fiasco is your disagreement with a temp chart that I posted from my Benz Data......argue with them. The chart was posted for Ivan b/c he asked for it ..tell him it is incorrect. It's always a pleasure , Jimbo....
__________________
A Dalton
|
|
#34
09-20-2008, 10:22 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Not sure what you mean but if you mean that some test procedure's "limits" were changed, that could well be.
That is always desirable than making a 'source' part (such as the sensor) change. MB is certainly aware of the cost of changing a sensor's specs b/c of what I detailed in the previous post. . . . ah, but changing a test-procedure's limits only effects the vehicle in question so it's a minor cost problem. If that's what you're referring to, that explains the mis-communication. I'm not here to give you any problems and I don't want any myself. So we can agree to disagree . . . . if we must. Pleasure here also . . . Ivan's car is fixed . . and we're almost  . . .
|
|
#35
09-21-2008, 04:03 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The local stealerships computers only list the production change variation - and then list a Behr product. The unit I have is a VDO unit - not apparently installed in the Australian versions of the W124 - (mine is a grey Japanese import.) R12 gas is officially banned in Australia (as in the rest of the "Western world" - still produced and used in many third world places). There are some places where R12 is still available. (I have a line on one of these places). I will see what I can do. As an aside my car - grey Japanese import should have been converted to R34 as part of its import licensing. (Must have slipped throuigh the radar so to speak) To order the sensor from Fastlane is unfortunately overly costly from Australia -conversion rates and then expensive postage. When I recieve the new sensor I will wire and internal switch with 250 ohm resistor in parrallel with it. Recharge AC New viscous fan New blue sensor
|
|
#36
09-21-2008, 11:06 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
After you're sure all is ok, you can add a resistor across the sensor. Details shown in MENU#18 of the values to use. Most use the "92 C" resistor. Last edited by JimF; 09-22-2008 at 01:52 AM.
|
|
#37
09-21-2008, 11:07 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
<
I suspected a possible difference in sensors for Asisan version, but be aware that the 250 ohm resistor as a bridge is not the correct value you are going to need..what you are going to be looking for is a resistor that drops the TOTAL of the sensor and the resistor to approx 250 ohms. [ cut-in ] That 250 is not the bridge , so you mis-read that. You will know that when you get the new sensor and see what that value actually is. The reason for the parrallel vs series is a series resistor will increase the total sensors circuit resistance, but a par. circuit of resistor and sensor will DROP the total R , thereby triggering the High Fan on sooner/low temp. Reasoning here is that the Sensors R drops as temp increases..that factor is what allows for the concept of the R bridging. Parrallel R always drop the R factor lower than the smallest R in the group. So, you are dropping the R/T ratio even further, getting a faster cut-in fan .What your final R needed can be calculated when we see what you have to work with new sensor . An est will be around 1200-1400 ohms, so don't go buy any 250 ohm resistor yet. That info is all in Jims page. My preference for yor chassis [ IL-6 engine] is to drop the circuit to a point where the fan cut-in is approx 100C , down from the 105/107 they use. That gets you the added jump on temp rise w/o having the fans on too much. That also gets you a cut-out of a few degrees less. The V8s suffer from running hotter and some guys prefer to trigger the fan earlier, but that is owner call. Where you live/ambients is also a factor ..I find the 6 engine seldom requires a high fan, even when a bridge mod @100C is installed..just the nature of the beast. You can see why I like the cabin switch..I am the deciding Factor and I am ZERO OHMS .... It is a good mod . and many have done it..It is also another cheap $$$ improvement, so that makes it even more tempting. Be interested in the actual sesnor they send for that car..as I for one know little about what they did w/asian exports.. See ya Jim F I see we were answering at the same time , so I leave it there........
__________________
A Dalton Last edited by Arthur Dalton; 09-21-2008 at 11:28 AM.
|
|
#38
09-21-2008, 09:03 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I was going to put the 250 ohm resistor in series with the manual switch so that I don't put a dead short across the sensor. I didn't intend on altering the resistance of the sensor at all. Manual switch for emergencies only - after I replace the original sensor.
Meanwhile The red sensor I bought will go into my W190 2.6. This car is a U.K. version. There is no auxiliary sensor at all in this car. The Auxiliary fan only operates off the air con. Maybe the auxiliary fans were not needed in the U.K. due to ambient weather there. - certainly required in Australia - in particular where I live - summer temperatures often above 40 degrees C (over 100 degrees f)
|
|
#39
09-22-2008, 02:00 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
You can only put the resistor in parallel with the sensor (ie across the leads) and the 'trick' is to get the correct resistor. Typically the value varies from 1.1K ohms to 1.8K ohms. Depending on the value chosen, you will turn the Aux Fans on early, from 92 - 93C to 98 - 99C. I personally don't like adding "switches" but some think it's the only way to go since you can control the fans. I'd rather see the 'system' make it's own decision as to when to come on and go off. Oops . . didn't read what you said . . . You said "manual switch". If your manual switch is basically a "short", it still may not work depending on where you place the switch in relation to the N22 wiring and the value of the resistor + stray resistance in the wiring . So use a 100 ohms to be sure. Last edited by JimF; 09-22-2008 at 02:13 AM.
|
|
#40
09-22-2008, 02:03 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
He is talking about the temporary switch until he gets the sensor...........
__________________
A Dalton
|
|
#41
09-22-2008, 02:09 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Ok. . . . I'm sorry . . . . I was talking about a new sensor installed. . . . but added a explanation at the end.
Last edited by JimF; 09-22-2008 at 02:14 AM.
|
|
#42
09-22-2008, 02:16 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Yeah , I read it the same way first too..
I had told him he could put a temporary toggle to open the high fan sensor circuit to Default while waiting on the new sensor. He is not interested in modifying the new one [ or at least until he gives it a go] A low fan toggle mod only requires shorting/closing the high side pressure sw, whereas a high fan toggle would require just the opposite [ open the circuit in order to default fan activation].. He just wants to add the series R for when the toggle is closed for no fan , but I would up that to 500 ohm just to make sure N/22 does not read that as trip................cutting it close... ....this would be w/o a sensor in the circuit, where the series R would be the component replacement of the sensor with a constant R factor higher than N/22 trigger, holding that circuit in NO FAN mode until the toggle is OPENED ...that would result in High Fan thru the default feature of N/22. Simple. For those interested in the manual over-ride cabin sw, ..the main reason for using the low fan circuit vs high fan is b/c you just have to hook your toggle ACROSS the high side pressure sw to make it work. This is as simple as it gets and there are 2 distinct advantages to using this point in that circuit for the switch ...the first being that you are still using the entire factory circuit for fan activation [ minus the high side sw], meaning you still have a relay circuit and the protection of both the relays coil side fuse and the fans load side fuse...they are already there , plus the R15 Dropping resistor .... so this jumper/toggle uses the stuff that is already there ......you just add the switch....... The other nice about this is that when you are NOT using the manual switch, your fan circuit is right back to STOCK FACTORY confiquration..no change at all...that is why I refer to it as a low fan system OVER-RIDE vs just a manual low fan circuit. You are simply over-riding the pressure switch b/c you are in parrallel with it. The rest of the circuit could care less....The high side requires a little more wiring and is not as convienient to get the wires to, whereas the high side sensor pigtail is staring right at ya...[ on the drier/reciever] Another plus is you can have BOTH the manual for low fan [ which is actually all that is needed] and the bridging Resistor to lower the high fan sensor cut-in...best of both and all for a couple of Bucks.............[the best part] Guys here if FL love the manual sw b/c they do a lot of boat and camper towing...comes in real handy b/c you get the jump on a condition that you already know is going to present itself. For Ivan: If you were by chance talking about a series 250 Ohm R in the low fan manual switch circuit I mentioned, that is not needed and would in effect only lower the 12v feed to the relays coil side ..not what you would want to do..the relay actuating coil wants a full 12v ... I do not think that is what you meant, but I write this note just in case.............. What many do not realise is the fact that the low fan, even tho it is the a/c systems acting fan, has nothing to do with the N/22 modules circuitry..it is just a simple direct 12v relay circuit using a dropping resistor R15 for low speed control and a pressure sw for trigger in the event the high side gets a thermal load on it requiring some additional air-flow....the N/22/circuit sees none of this and only operates high fan circuit, with the blu sensor being N/22s temp input and it is N/22 that controls the high fan relay [ along with compressor cut-out] Two SEPERATE circuits, with seperate relays, fuses, resistor, wiring, and purpose ..but sharing the same fan motor/s at the end of each circuit. One high, one low............................
__________________
A Dalton Last edited by Arthur Dalton; 09-22-2008 at 03:34 AM.
|
|
#44
09-22-2008, 11:09 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
I totally agree that low-speed "switch" is the best way; you get low fans which will do a good job; it's easier to do (wire in parallel) and you hardly know they are on.
|
|
#45
09-22-2008, 11:16 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hey..you agree ????
Let me Print this one out ....
__________________
A Dalton
|
 |
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Linear Mode
