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  #16  
Old 07-29-2009, 10:42 AM
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At least cliffmac gives us a good laugh. He was a bit annoying at first until it became clear what he is...



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  #17  
Old 07-29-2009, 10:59 AM
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Yeah....every forum has a Cliffie...but does every forum need one ??

If one is just reading post ,it is a good laugh. but.............

It can become quite annoying and aggrevating when one is in the middle of doing a diagnosis for a poster and he pops right in the middle with distracting BS..

It's guys like him that can make good , technical solving posters go elsewhere in frustration.

Remember Duke2.6 ?? Perfect example.

I give him credit for putting it right out there ..thread # 18.
Too bad we lost him........

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/127343-troubleshooting-get-most-your-post-post1210440.html#post1210440

Makes no difference.. being here ALMOST 10 years, I see them come and I see them go... just seems lately like more are coming than going , though ....
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Last edited by Arthur Dalton; 07-29-2009 at 11:52 AM.
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  #18  
Old 07-29-2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffmac View Post
the fuel pump relay 156 dollars? no...totally impossible....absolutely no way the fuel pump relay is more than 40 dollars...who told you this?

He's right on one thing. The dealership part cost is a LOT higher than the 156.00 listed here in AD's link.

Ask me how I know....

But when you're dead in the water on the side of the road and have read multiple posts on possible causes of engine cut-out followed by immediate restarting, and how many Indies and DIYer's throw money at part after part after part,well, time to call the flatbed and tow to the dealership.

It's all relative.
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  #19  
Old 07-29-2009, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dynalow View Post
He's right on one thing. The dealership part cost is a LOT higher than the 156.00 listed here in AD's link.

Ask me how I know....

But when you're dead in the water on the side of the road and have read multiple posts on possible causes of engine cut-out followed by immediate restarting, and how many Indies and DIYer's throw money at part after part after part,well, time to call the flatbed and tow to the dealership.

It's all relative.
I believe the post you quoted said there was no way the FPR could cost as much as $156...no more than $40 I believe it said, "unless you are a sucker." Perhaps you meant to quote the OP.
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  #20  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:39 PM
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M103 Vacuum leak - the 'usual suspects'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinypanzer View Post
I had a problem that was sort of like this, except it turned out to be a leaky vacuum hose, the one to the cold start injector.....

Anyway, at first until it went totally bad and started stalling ALL the time, it would stall out at stop lights. At first, only when the AC was on due to the extra load it put on the motor.

M103 has 3 hoses that like to leak and kill the motor. They get hard and brittle and crack in places that are hard to see.

Anyway, it's easy enough to check if you don't get results with the other suggestions here. Those hoses will go bad eventually..........
I'm planning on following the vacuum leak check procedure [from the wiki] this weekend - which hose[s] are the 'usual suspects'?

Are the locations of the break usually near the manifold, or [predictably] somewhere inaccessible?

For what it's worth, without instruments, all the fittings that directly connect to the manifold seem to be ok - nothing was brittle.
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  #21  
Old 07-30-2009, 04:52 PM
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That's good that nothing's obviously brittle.

There are a couple hoses, I forget what they're actually called by MB. One of them goes from underneath the intake manifold at around cylinder 4, goes to the cold start injector, then snakes around up front to the idle air valve. While you're checking that hose, take a moment to put a 9V battery on the idle air valve and verify that it goes clunk. Then another hose comes out the other side of the idle air valve and bends 90 degrees to a plastic fitting on or near the throttle body. Check all of those for leaks and verify the idle air valve moves when voltage is applied.

Then there's a hose about 3" long with two 45 degree bends in it. It sits on top of the motor, behind the large breather hose. It likes to crack on the underside.

The large breather hose is easy to check since it sits on top of everything.

Then there's all of the little rubber elbows connected to the manifold that go to your various vacuum controls.

The one that goes to the idle air valve is a beast to replace, or I just haven't found the 'trick' to it. I wound up having to pull off my whole fuel distro/air meter assembly to get to it because I just couldn't get leverage to push the new one over the nipple. If you replace that, get the MB part as the aftermarket one I bought was very poorly made and I was pissed to have to install such a crappy part after all that effort.

Then there's the rubber boot that connects the air meter to the throttle body. That thing can get cracks on the underside and make problems, but mine is original and still intact (125 K miles).


The one thing I have learned about these cars in the very few years I have been working on them is that patience and observation will eventually get you to the problem. Frustration and hurry will make things worse. When I have a difficult issue on mine I like to take it to my shop and set up my tools and just take my time, slowly pouring over the car and the beer. I find that it is when you are most relaxed and enjoying the challenge that the problem jumps out at you.


Good luck!
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1990 300SE "Corinne"- 145k daily driver - street modified differential - PARTING OUT OR SELLING SOON - PORTLAND OR. AREA - PM ME FOR DETAILS
1988 560SEL "Gunther"- 190K passes anything except a gas station
1997 S420 - 265k just bought it with a rebuilt trans. Lovely condition
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  #22  
Old 07-30-2009, 09:37 PM
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yep, all relative, I agree....$40 vs $160...well, I guess that's relative as well...it's not my money and otherwise...
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  #23  
Old 07-30-2009, 09:44 PM
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do you guys even know what the heck you are talking/dealing about/with? Man, it seems to me as though you don't know at all, based upon this thread...
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  #24  
Old 08-06-2009, 09:53 PM
89 300E
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinypanzer View Post
That's good that nothing's obviously brittle.




The one thing I have learned about these cars in the very few years I have been working on them is that patience and observation will eventually get you to the problem. Frustration and hurry will make things worse. When I have a difficult issue on mine I like to take it to my shop and set up my tools and just take my time, slowly pouring over the car and the beer. I find that it is when you are most relaxed and enjoying the challenge that the problem jumps out at you.


Good luck!
Well, my shop option is true 'shade tree' operation [no garage], but I have learned that the first time always takes longer than you would think.

Life intruded enough that I have not been able to begin the leak test. This spring's work included replacing the seals for the timing cover and rocker cover, but the top of the engine [and much of the intake manifold] are coated with old engine goo.

The car had 224k miles on it when the odometer broke, and an unknown number of miles since that, so I am somewhat surprised to see or feel any induction hose or seal that appears to be in reasonable shape.

The two breather hoses were easy to replace, but because they were easy they were confirmed as not being the culprit. The stuff that's difficult to get to is probably where the trouble lies. Considering the age/milage I probably will want to replace any rubber hose or seal that is disturbed.


So, if the fuel distributer needs to be moved to get to the idle air bypass hoses, what needs to be moved / disconnected?

Do the hard lines have any 'give' to them, or do they need to be disconnected?

If the injectors are disconnected, does that break the seal? [need new seals]

Any suggestions of what to put on the shopping list?
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  #25  
Old 08-07-2009, 12:57 AM
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Tinypanzer, well, I followed your advise and took my time laying all my tools out and then slowly poured beer over my car.

It didn't really help.
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  #26  
Old 08-13-2009, 08:26 AM
89 300E
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
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Well, last night's shade tree workshop session went well - until it started raining. [iffy forecast for this evening too]

I found that both hoses [upstream and downstream] on the idle air valve seem 'porous', with numerous small defects. [no way to judge the aggregate area].

The original hoses had one clamp, a spring clamp where it connects to the manifold [by the cold start valve] but there does not seem to be any way to get pliers on it. Since it's a spring clamp, can the hose just be forced into place?

Should the other connections for the idle valve hoses have clamps?

Since I have everything apart anyway, I'm also going to replace all the injector seals [insulators, seals & O rings].
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  #27  
Old 08-27-2009, 02:56 PM
89 300E
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 80
m103 Sudden Death - the Continuing Saga

And finally the next increment in the tale of woe

There do not appear to be any remaining vacuum leaks [tested with dvm on 02 sensor, ovp relay pulled].

Our symptoms so far:
  • Car starts fine when cold
  • When diving, transmission upshifts to top gear by 20-25 mph, ignoring throttle input. [the engine responds, but the transmission does not delay any upshift or 'kickdown' ].
The rest of the testing is driveway based, to avoid collisions and the tow truck.
  • Engine idles fine to reasonably well [apparently this is not one of the m103's best features] when cold through the warmup.
  • When warm [80 degrees C] the engine will stop running. Sometimes this is in response to throttle movement, sometimes just stops idling
  • The idle air valve 'clunks' nicely when tapped with a 9v battery.

So far, I've replaced the breather hoses, idle air hoses, the rubber under side of the fuel distributor [the part that clamps onto the throttle body], spark plugs, wires, rotor & cap. Most of the rubber was sound, with minor defects at worst.

I need to get / borrow a 'duty cycle' equipped DVM and see what that says [probably 'normal' right up to the point of failure]. Which terminals on the [9 pin] round connector show the duty cycle? [link ?]

What are the next things to check?

The transmission modulator holds vacuum [at least for a couple of minutes, no fluid in the connection] so that does not seem to be a major problem.

The engine has the old two pin style temp sensor [Bosch BSH006937 ] what should be the resistance be [pin to ground or pin to pin] ? [cold, warm or failure values]
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  #28  
Old 08-27-2009, 06:24 PM
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As to the resistance of the temp sensor, the values vary with temperature. Obviously an open reading (no current flow) is defective, as is a short reading.

Other than that, there is a chart I posted here in a temp sensor thread that tells you what the value should be relative to the temperature. I'm feeling too lazy at the moment to search and link it, but it's here......
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1990 300SE "Corinne"- 145k daily driver - street modified differential - PARTING OUT OR SELLING SOON - PORTLAND OR. AREA - PM ME FOR DETAILS
1988 560SEL "Gunther"- 190K passes anything except a gas station
1997 S420 - 265k just bought it with a rebuilt trans. Lovely condition
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  #29  
Old 08-27-2009, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevitt View Post
I need to get / borrow a 'duty cycle' equipped DVM and see what that says [probably 'normal' right up to the point of failure]. Which terminals on the [9 pin] round connector show the duty cycle?
Pretty sure pin 2 is ground and pin 3 is the duty cycle signal.
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  #30  
Old 08-28-2009, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinypanzer View Post
As to the resistance of the temp sensor, the values vary with temperature. Obviously an open reading (no current flow) is defective, as is a short reading.

Other than that, there is a chart I posted here in a temp sensor thread that tells you what the value should be relative to the temperature. I'm feeling too lazy at the moment to search and link it, but it's here......
Hard to start when warm

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