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  #16  
Old 12-31-2001, 05:38 PM
roas
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Try here Bo, http://www.daimlerchrysler.de/classic/newsroom/goodwood/190e/content_e.htm for the real scoop.

Also, the MAS issue and others you mention usually occur on cars with in excess of 100k miles on them, does that make the whole car a POS?
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2001, 05:54 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA/ Hilo, HI
Posts: 92
The engine in the 190E Evo II was a eurospecs 4 cyl, 16 valve 2.5 and not available in the US. The street version produced 235hp and, correction the racer produced 373hp not 400hp. My mistake! Bekkers has a similar Evo II racer. They claim 375+hp.
Looks quite radical with a huge wing and extreme body kit. You 've got to see them in action though to really appreciate these grand little racers.
Here's a link with a bit of info:
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/lancia/58/classic/mercedes.htm
There is more info out there. Just do a search if you want to know more. And just of rhte heck ot it check this site out, for a look at a MBZ legend:
http://www.rapidcars.com/clk.html

And regarding the head gasket and other parts things, I cannot recreate the same complaints from personal experience, as I have had a M103 up to 204 k miles and the headgasket was never done. No need to. No problems with the air mass sensor on my M119 either, the harness will need to be replaced though, but thats after 120K miles. And I know of other people who never had to do any of the replacements you are talking about.
Perhaps it depends on how you treat the car after all, even a german car does not do to well with abuse of any kind. Sometimes people seem to think: It cost $ XXX.XXX , so it will withstand all the abuse I can throw at it. Not the case. Sorry!
And at times I am very stunned how some people threat their cars here in this country and its up to the following owners to correct the damage done to the cars by the previous ones. Unfortunately you 've got to have a lot of money in this country to afford a new Benz. Rich people do not care about teh condition of these cars most of the time and just drive them into the ground and then switch to a newer one.
I dont quite understand your frustration, since you seem to own quite a few Benzes and if unsatisfied, one would assume you would own something else.
As you have perhaps already concluded, I am quite the MBZ extremist and apologize if I have offended you or anybody else.

Happy New Year!

F.J.

P.S.: Thanks for the support and link, Ross!
__________________
F.J.
81 300 SD grey/palomino 168K miles
84 190E 2.3 black/grey 64K miles (wrecked)
85 190E 2.3 maroon/palomino 92K miles
88 300E desert red/palomino 204k miles
(made to look like a '94-95)
92 400E desert taupe/creme beige 120K miles
(converted to 94-95 E420 looks)
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  #18  
Old 12-31-2001, 07:31 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Western Michigan
Posts: 1,080
My final word on this thread

About the HP of the 190E engine, fair enough. But now you are talking about non-street car engines or engines not available in the US. I am ignorant about race engines so I will take your word for it. If I had the time, I would do some research and maybe I can find another manufacture that produced something similar.

<<
Also, the MAS issue and others you mention usually occur on cars with in excess of 100k miles on them, does that make the whole car a POS?
>>

Well, the fact that your car does not have MAS problem or have that problem at high miles does not mean others do not have the problem or have the problem at low miles. As a matter of fact, if only a low percentage of cars have that problem, it is not even a problem at all. But if a high percentage of cars have the same problem at low mileages, then it is a problem. "Does that make the whole car a POS?", probably not as many MB owners do not even care because they simply give it to the dealer, tell them "fix it" and will be gladly pay for it. (The previous owner of my 1987 300TD paid $348 for the labor on front brakes and the work order states "replace pads and machine rotors". This is from an authorized MB dealer. WOW!)

This MAS is an emission related equipment and it SHOULD have a 8 year and 80kmi warranty according to EPA. But MB singled this item out and only warranty it for 4 yeas and 50kmi (in the US). It is a fine print on the emission warranty booklet.

So many drivers of the 1990 - 1995 S class diesel (3.5 liter) have problems with their engines. NOT EVERY ENGINE HAS PROBLEM but a high percentage have premature failures. MB never take responsibility for that. The "poor" (or should I say the rich) MB S class owners spent between $7,000 - $10,000 to have MB crate engines installed to replace the bad engines.

Now back to our MAS and head gasker issues.

About MAS, take a look at

Mass Air Sensor !!! Please help.

The thread was initiated by an owner of a 1999 ML320.

In that thread, a Mercedes Benz Master Technician wrote:

"Bosch would be that vender on the air mass sensor!! VERY high failure rate!!! However MB must take some of the blame as they installed this sensor directly above the EXHAUST manifold."

"VERY high failure rate!!!" please note that.

He further added:

"I have replaced probably 50 mass air meters and done 50-100 head gaskets. ONLY the ones under the 50k mile warranty are done under warranty at our dealers."

That implies there are MAS and head gasket failures under 50kmi. The one on my 1997 E320 failed at 57kmi, much lower than 120kmi you quoted. Actually, I would be glad if it lasted 120kmi as the repair for the MAS was over $800 from an authorized MB dealer.

94000001 Replace Mass Air Sensor $249.88
1 000-094-18-48 Air Mass Sen $534.30


About head gasket, take a look at
104 eng. Bullit proof? or Prone to breaking down?

In that thread, the same Mercedes Benz Master Technician wrote:

"I think that the 104 is one of the best engines. The wire harness will be replaced under a goodwill for 120k miles at our local dealer. The have done hundreds for us...As for the head gasket, yes, one in 3 will fail early"

Another MB technician wrote (also in the same thread):

"There's some slight seepage at the rear corner of the head, but that's normal".

Right, that is normal for a M104 engine to seep oil from the opinion of a MB technician. What does that say?

The one on my 1997 E320 failed at 48kmi and was replaced under warranty. Now at 59kmi, it is leaking again. I am,by no means, for abuse driver on my cars.

There is even a joke among those who have owned MB for years and here it is, FWIW. A MB owner takes his(her) beloved Mercedes to a mechanic and complains about an oil leak in the car. The mechanic says "that is normal, all Meredes I have seen leak." Now that would be fair if the Toyotas and Hondas also leak but, rather unfortunately, they do not.

Let's agree to disagree and stop this thread. You can have the final word on it.

I maintain my position, that is,

THERE IS A HIGHER THAN ACCEPTABLE PREMATURE FAILURE RATE, AT UNUSUAL LOW MILEAGES, OF THE MASS AIR SENSOR, HEAD GASKET, FRONT TIMING COVER GASKET, AND WIRING HARNESS IN MERCEDES-BENZ M103 AND M104 ENGINES.

Cars have problems, make no mistake about it. But if the problem is of high frequency, then the manufature should take some responsibility for it. That is all I am saying. MBUSA is so ignorant it won't accept anything unless the government gets involved as in the case of the trap oxidizer in the 86 - 87 diesels. On tis forum, there is a Honda dealer foreman. If you read his messagea about how Honda takes its responsibilities of their frequent problems, you maybe amazed (I certainly was).

Thanks for reading and Happy New Year!
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  #19  
Old 12-31-2001, 08:46 PM
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Location: Western Michigan
Posts: 1,080
Horsepower

OK, I lied because I am back at this thread. After a little research, I would like to offer a few more comments.

The link Ross offered (http://www.daimlerchrysler.de/class...e/content_e.htm) was not for a production engine. Only eight (8) were made and it was not for sale. There are so many race engines so it is hard to compare.

Let's try to compare oranges with oranges. In this case, production engines that are naturally aspirated. One can walk into a dealership and actually buy one.

<<
The engine in the 190E Evo II was a eurospecs 4 cyl, 16 valve 2.5 and not available in the US. The street version produced 235hp.
>>
OK, that is about 94 HP/L. A great engine, indeed.

I searched MBUSA's Website and found the highest output (displacement normalized), naturally aspirated engine is the AMG 32 used in the C-class and SLK. Here are the specs:

AMG-built intercooled supercharged 3,199-cc SOHC V6 Engine. Net power 349 hp.

That is about 109 HP/L. It is even greater than the 190E Evo II. A great engine.

Somehow I always thought Honda makes great engines so I took a look at its Website and I found this:

Honda S2000

The 2.0 liter engine on the Honda S2000 produces 240HP. That's an amazing 120-HP per liter, the highest specific output of any normally aspirated production engine in the world.

That is a bout 120 HP/L, higher than the Mercedes-Benz AMG engine, much higher than the 190E Evo II.

I am sure there are other manufactures that are producing similar engines.

Point of mine is that Mercedes engines are good (or should I say AMG in this case) but I will never blindly say they are always the best. They are good. Every manufacture has access to the same advanced manufaturing/material/design technology so should be capable of producing great engines with no leaky head gaskets, no frying MAS and wiring harness.
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2002, 12:18 AM
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Location: Los Angeles, CA/ Hilo, HI
Posts: 92
We could probably keep going on about this forever and I completely agree with you to disagree.
I am sorry to hear about the many complaints people have about the treatment they receive at MBUSA dealers and was stunned myself when confronted with it. What I have seen here and heard about is unheard of in Germany and the surrounding countries. Fact is that unfortunately most of the dealers here in the US are franchise and for some reason unknown to me the MBZ headquarters in Stuttgart has very little control over what is going on here in this country. To give you an example: You walk into almost any MBZ dealership in the LA area wearing jeans and T-shirt, they almost scare you out, most of the time dont even give you a free brochure and treat you with a condescending attitude I find despicable. Unthinkable in Germany.
In Germany MBZ scores the highest of all automobile manufacturers in customer satisfaction in service etc and I have yet to see any american dealership that even remotely approaches german standards. That is unfortunate, because excellent service and customer treatment is one of the other great qualities of MBZ, which is obviously disregarded in the US.
About your comparison with Honda, question is: How long do these engines last?
Do they have a reputation of going up to 200K-400K miles even in gasoline cars?
A powerful engine does not make a great race or street car and hp output is not the final word. The amount of torque it actually produces and a flat torque curve is what really counts in the end.
To tell the truth, I dont even look at Honda or any other asian manufacturers, usually they are pathetically weak when it comes to real world applications and you stop looking at drawing board numbers.
Talking purely about engines, is Honda even close to being a real competitor to Mercedes in F1 racing?
Sure they build cheap cars with great gas mileage. But these are also cardboard boxes ( they are light, thats why they are fast and also why they start flying once you start cornering hard and why you are toast when you get into a serious accident) with outrageous prices for dealer only parts. A friend ran his Accord into a E320 ever so slightly, result: $4000 damage to his car and a scratch on the bumpercover of the E320. Sounds crazy, but I have seen it myself. Lets face it they are cheaply built, begin falling apart mostly around 75k-100K miles and ride quality sucks after the initial breakin period.
What good is a car like that with the best liter to hp ratio on the planet.
I personally have never owned a japanese car and most likely never will, but friends and relatives have and learned to regret their choice, with one notable exception being Subaru.
Anyways, as yours, my opinion stands also and stands reinforced by the exceptional standards MBZ upholds in Germany and their unequalled history in innovation and racing.
If MB's were not truly as reliable as their reputation suggests, how do you explain 75% of Germany's Taxi fleet being accounted for by MBZ vehicles, mostly E-Class, all rescue vehicles and fire engines as well as police troop transports in Germany being MBZ, Vietnam importing lots of older Benzes instead of newer Rice bowls, the US Army replacing their Jeeps with Gelaendewagen, MB diesels of the last four decades still running strong in many a third world country, where other cars fail almost instantly, Japanese embassadors to foreign countries riding in MB's rather than Lexus, MB having set many records that still stand unbroken today etc etc.
If US people running US dealerships, don't care for their customer base the way they should or to uphold a value system obviously alien to this country and somehow keep MBZ from efficiently reinforcing their standards, than thats what the US people have to live with. Sorry to say it, but that's how it is and I completely agree with you that that is not how it should be.
I sometimes wish I could make people here experience MB as it is in Germany, with an average dealership having about 100-150 preowned and new cars on display, wider choices in engines and other options to individualize a new car purchase and with open doors and outstanding service and treatment to anyone who owns or whishes to own a Mercedes-Benz of any period.
Have a Happy New Year!
Sincerely,
F.J.
__________________
F.J.
81 300 SD grey/palomino 168K miles
84 190E 2.3 black/grey 64K miles (wrecked)
85 190E 2.3 maroon/palomino 92K miles
88 300E desert red/palomino 204k miles
(made to look like a '94-95)
92 400E desert taupe/creme beige 120K miles
(converted to 94-95 E420 looks)

Last edited by F.J.Lahme; 01-01-2002 at 12:24 AM.
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  #21  
Old 01-01-2002, 12:46 AM
pmizell's Avatar
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 838
Re: head gasket failures

Awhile back after learning that my 103 head gasket had blown for the second time in under 150k miles I sent an email from a link on MBUSA's website. Here is how Kathleen Durning from MBZ responded:

Quote:
Thank you for your e-mail.

We regret to learn of the circumstances which caused you to write. We do, however, disagree with your comment that the head gasket on our 103/104 engines has been a"common problem". We have NO known problems with the cylinder head gasket for the 103 and 104 engines. We advise you have your vehicle inspected by an authorize MB Dealer.

If you would like to discuss this further, our Technical Specialist can be reached at 1-800-FOR-MERCedes (1-800-367-6372) between the hours of 8 A.M. and 6 P.M. Eastern Time.
What amazes me is the emphatic 'NO' she threw in there.

Pffffffft!

~Paul

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  #22  
Old 01-01-2002, 12:56 AM
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Paul:

That is precisely my problem with the arrogant MBUSA. When we have master technicians say 1 out of 3 head gasket fail prematurely and MBUSA say no problem, that is a problem.

It must be the air. The air in Germany is so clean so cars there have no problems. The USA air must be so bad that is causing the head gaskets, MAS, wiring harness, etc. to fail.
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  #23  
Old 01-01-2002, 08:10 AM
engatwork's Avatar
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FJ - we have had some sort of Honda in the family since 1987 and I have yet to see one start falling apart between 75 and 100k miles. The CRV is coming up on 100k and the only thing it has required is oil/filters/fluid/tires and brake replacement. Maybe I overmaintain them ?
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  #24  
Old 01-01-2002, 03:46 PM
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Nice to hear you had that little problems with your Honda, and I sincerely hope that you will continue to have none, but a lot of people I know have not been so fortunate with Hondas and other jap. cars and ended up spending a lot of money on these.
Perhaps you maintain your Honda the way you do maintain your Benzes and thus it does make a difference on other cars too?!
I dont know and dont really care since they dont meet my personal standards for the overall package of a car and having worked as a Mercedes and BMW mechanic for quite some time I know their differences inside and out. The only circumstance someone can get me to work on their japanese car is when a really good friend approaches me for help. That would be the only reason for me to put up with these incredibly tight spaces, impossible location of some components and sharp edges all over the place that you regularly cut you hands open on etc. We used to turn people away with any japanese car, no matter how big the owners wallet. Now you may call that arrogance, stupidity or whatever, I call it selectivity and a choice that we are all allowed to make and truth is: Many people I know who own or owned japanese cars regret their choice, even if its a brand new Lexus and some have paid for their choices with their lives in an accident that they would have certainly lived trough in, ie even a 18 year old MB 190E.
Anyways, beginning the new year I will conclude my participation in this thread as I had to realize that loubapache's and other's anger and frustration is not really aimed at the cars and their engineering that I defended, but against the people who they have to deal with in a franchise MB company that does not uphold true MBZ standards and I do share their sentiments for this country completely. I dont have any reason or inclination to defend the arrogance that MBUSA franchises are conducting their business with.
I do know the true MBZ and how they operate in Europe and other countries and the difference is incredible. I am sorry to say but a clash of value systems caused this and the people running MBUSA do obviously not care for the values that MB stands for and upholds in Germany and the rest of the world and care more for the image, prestige and the money the silver star gets them.
I believe the restriction of influence that is placed on MBZ Germany and the llimited control they have over their franchise in this counrty probably goes back to roots after WWII.
And we all know that the "devilish" german and his enterprises still have to be kept under tight control of a "better knowing force".
If MBZ were to operate the way they do in Germany, there would be no franchise branches at all, so many of the problems people encounter with their dealers would be nonexistent, given the fact that the franchise owners are clearly trying to maximize their profits at the expense of customer satisfaction, which is also supported by the treatment people receive from the New jersey headquarters. They are also trying to keep MBZ a rich people's upper-class achievement only, whereas in Germany its an everyman's car and merely the sales designation destinguishes between the income classes. And I guess we all know that they are pretty much free to do whatever they want to do, whatever foreign franchise we are talking about in this country.
Anyways, I guess we all will have to battle these franchises here and there until we get an open international market with fewer restrictions on foreign companies and their operations.
A Happy and Successful New Year to everybody!
Sincerely,
F.J.
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F.J.
81 300 SD grey/palomino 168K miles
84 190E 2.3 black/grey 64K miles (wrecked)
85 190E 2.3 maroon/palomino 92K miles
88 300E desert red/palomino 204k miles
(made to look like a '94-95)
92 400E desert taupe/creme beige 120K miles
(converted to 94-95 E420 looks)
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  #25  
Old 01-01-2002, 05:41 PM
engatwork's Avatar
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FJ - I totally agree with you concerning the Honda (especially cars where the engine sits sideways) when it comes to space to work on it and crash worthiness. I do maintain my vehicles like I maintain my Benz and I look at your statements as compliments on my diyer ability - thanks .
After further consideration - I have to agree that the situation that was shown on the show was a RennTech problem. Over the past few weeks I was able to watch some racing on Speedvision called European Auto series or something like that and the first three finishes were Mercedes Benz. Unfortunately, I doubt if MBUSA folks even care.
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  #26  
Old 01-01-2002, 05:54 PM
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I have some interesting observations about the longevity and durability of American, Japanese, and Mercedes cars.
People in my family seem to own cars for a looooong time. My father was a mechanic for Unocal and loved to work on his cars when I was a kid. He owned cadillacs through the late 60's, and seventies. We seem to put a lot of mileage on our cars. All of his cadillacs went over 200,000 miles. My mother even had a VW Beetle that went over 200,000 miles on the original engine. My father also drove a 1981 300 SD for 399,000 miles until he sold it. It started to cost a lot of money to keep runnning, but, hey, it had 399,000 miles on it. My mother recently traded in her 1994 C220 with 244,000 miles for a 1999 E430. I have driven two Toyota Camry's - one to just over 200,000 miles (straight 4) and one with about 255,000 miles (a V-6). These were extremely trouble-free cars, and the only repairs I made were shocks, struts, rotors, one starter, one alternator. My 93 300E 3.2 has almost 131,000 miles.
My personal experience is as follows:
The American cars, in particular, at high mileage feel like they are going to fall apart. The suspension is shot, the chasis creaks and shakes, etc. They are without a doubt not worth repairing and maintaining because the cars feel like they are falling apart.
The Japanese cars were of the highest quality and trouble free hands down compared to Mercedes and American cars up to even 200,000 miles. The problem is after 200,000 miles, they are very "tired", loose, doors close with a shake and a rattle. The styling is also really starting to show its age.
The Mercedes we've owned in my family, including mine, have had more repairs, easily, compared to the Japanese cars, but as they go up in mileage, they never lose their solid feel, the doors always close with a solid "thud", the styling still looks timeless, and they still hold their value.
In summary: American cars are waaaay behind the Japanese and Mercedes, the Japanese, in my opinion have higher quality than either the Americans and Mercedes, and Mercedes have higher incidence of repair, but are much more durable and have greater longevity. They still feel "new" even at incredibly high mileage. J.D. Power and Associates, Intellichoice, Consumer Reports, etc. have all consistently ranked Japanese cars higher in quality than Mercedes. My heart is with Mercedes and I hope they get their act together relating to quality.
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  #27  
Old 01-01-2002, 06:12 PM
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<>

Jim- A pity, isnt it?!

suginami- Nice observations! Thanks.
__________________
F.J.
81 300 SD grey/palomino 168K miles
84 190E 2.3 black/grey 64K miles (wrecked)
85 190E 2.3 maroon/palomino 92K miles
88 300E desert red/palomino 204k miles
(made to look like a '94-95)
92 400E desert taupe/creme beige 120K miles
(converted to 94-95 E420 looks)
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  #28  
Old 01-01-2002, 06:12 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Western Michigan
Posts: 1,080
suginami:

I completely agree with your nice post RE quality, etc on various cars as I have also owned American, Japanese, and Mercedes in my life. My experience mirrors yours.

The way to improve quality is to recognize that there are imperfections on the cars and improve them. Denying out right is not the solution. Sorry I have to go back to the MAS one more time as a 14-year Mercedes-Benz Factory Tech posted today in

C36 stumbing/hesitation on acceleration

He said: "I think you having problems with the AirMass meter. I change at least 5-6 weekly on benz".

I think you have enough quotes from Mercedes-Benz mechnics and hope I have convinced you that Mercedes_benz HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE DESIGN LOCATION OF THE MAS regardless if MBUSA will say it.

Now, if MBUSA recognizes that is a problem, it will find a way to improve it. Arrogantly denying it won't improve the quality. Recognizing behind the door and then improving it will alienate good customers.

Regarding easy to work on. Someone, please check the flat rate on a M103 or M104 water pump. Then check to see if there is another car or manufacture that requires the same amount of flat rate to replace a water pump. Or better yet, check the number of hours to replace a W140 condenser. MBUSA will laugh to the bank.

Mercedes-Bens are good cars. They are not the most trouble-free, they are not the best handling, they are not the most-economical. But they are a good compromise. They age well, their suspension is well designed and will last a long time if people throw money into that pit.

Again I will never blindly say Mercedes-Benz is the best on this and that. In terms of quality control and custom satisfaction, they have a lot to learn from the Japanese makers. Unfortunately, they will never learn or there will never be a need to learn unless forced upon. It took MBUSA 10 years to recognize their problem with the trap oxidizer and a lot of pressure from the EPA for them to "recall" that.
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  #29  
Old 01-01-2002, 07:57 PM
roas
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Perhaps my statement about the MAS issue is unfounded? To be honest I hae not payed to much attention to other models out there. It's a shame that most of the "Corporate Heads" running Mercedes have become so profit motivationed, when did the carrot turned green?
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