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  #1  
Old 02-24-2002, 10:44 PM
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Question Did search on oil, need opinion on SAE grade!

It is NOT another how often question or how to do it but, what weight should I use with dino oil in Florida?.
According to the owner's manual 15w-40 and 15w-50 can be used in +5 to +86 F or 10w-40 and 10w-50 in -4 to +86F can be used year-round. 5w-20 to 20w-50 and everything in between can be used in less than -4 to more than +86 F.
Being in North Florida, temperature is pleasant year-round (I do not like cold weather) 80-90's summer to a rare 30-40's winter. I want to use the proper oil weight for my car (which has over 240,000 miles) recommended by MB but, at the same time, I know my owner's manual was printed 16 years ago and a LOT of things have changed since then, including oil recommendations.
I want to hear opinions and experiences from MB owners and MB techs in this forum. I did a search but found nothing specific.
Background: I'd been using 10w-30, the engine is consuming about a quart every 1-2000 miles after new seals and I have the usual 103 engine front seal leak and no major engine problems (knock on wood). I know I am just postponing the inevitable (a valve job) but, in the mean time and even after a valve job...WHAT WEIGHT SHOULD I USE WITH REGULAR DINO OIL?
By the way, I do change oil often but I am inclined to start using 10w-40.
Sorry for the long description but, I think it was necessary for proper assesment.
Thank you in advance!
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  #2  
Old 02-24-2002, 10:58 PM
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Lately, I have been collecting and learning all about various oils.

Based on your car's year and climate, my recommendation is the Chevron Delo 400 15W-40 universal oil. It is SJ rated and is perfect for a gasoline engine (over kill actually). You can easily go 3000 - 5000 mi on oil change.

It performs like a synthetic in every way but priced as a conventional oil. The base oil used in it is a Group II base stock. This is probably the most bang for the buck in the oil market. Can you believe it has a pour point of -38 deg F?
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  #3  
Old 02-24-2002, 11:17 PM
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Some Common Misconceptions...

First, SAE doesn't rate motor oil anymore, it's done by API. And Larry Bible would agree with Bo about DELO 400 being a good multipurpose oil, but be aware that it was specifically formulated for diesel engines. The DELO stands for Diesel Engine Lubricating Oil...

Also, with all due respect Bo, if you really think that DELO "performs like a synthetic in every way", you need to forget everything you think you have learned about motor oils and start over.

Here's a good start:

Archived MBShop Oil Threads:

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=16998

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=16759

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=16141

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=15638

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=14230

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=13620

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=13350

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=13323

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=13204

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=12277

www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=11870
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Last edited by longston; 02-25-2002 at 12:14 AM.
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  #4  
Old 02-24-2002, 11:30 PM
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longston:

Couple comments on your two points.

First point. It is tougher to pass the diesel ratings (Ch-4) than the gasoline ratings (SJ) and Delo passes both. "It is specifically formulated for diesel engines" does not make it an inferior oil for gasoline engines. As a matter of fact, it is a far superior oil in gasoline engines than any conventional oil formulated for gasoline engines. A few years back, there was an article about these universal oils and the MBCA techie (Frank King?) heartedly recommend them for all engines, diesel or gasoline.

About the second point. Can you find a conventional oil, synthetic blend, or even some synthetics that have the following Delo 15W-40 properties:

Pour point: -38 deg F; Flash point: 446 deg F; Cold Cranking Viscosity (CCV): 3150 cP at -15 deg C.


As a reference, here are the same numbers for the Rotella full synthetic 5W-40 oil:

Pour point: -22 deg F; Flash point: 475 deg F; Cold Cranking Viscosity: 6400 cP at -30 deg C.


And here are the numbers for Rotella's 10W-40 synthetic blend:

Pour point: -27 deg F; Flash point: 405 deg F; Cold Cranking Viscosity: 3200 cP at -20 deg C.


As you can see, the Delo has a lower pour point than synthetic blend and full synthetic oil. It has a very nicely low CCV and its flash point is very high.

BTW, the Rotella full synthetic uses a Group III base stocks.

<<
First, SAE doesn't rate motor oil anymore, it's done by API.
>>
Finally, oil viscosity is still rated by SAE, not API. Take a look at the API Symbol "Donut", it shoud say SAE xW-xx at the center.

Last edited by loubapache; 02-25-2002 at 12:35 AM.
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  #5  
Old 02-25-2002, 12:14 AM
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Unhappy Not another oil discussion!

I welcome ALL suggestions and I think everybody will have good and bad points, as discussed in many previous threads. However, all I need at this point is the non-synthetic oil weight for car, pleaseeeeeeeeeee!Thank you!
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  #6  
Old 02-25-2002, 12:48 AM
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This Is Just The Beginning Of What You Get...

When you ask a question about oil on these forums. You should know better by now...

Everyone here has an opinion (especially about motor oil and antifreeze), and we will all offer our own personal suggestion. Many of those opinions will be in direct opposition to each other. Just some are better researched than others.

If you don't mind me saying so, if I wanted a simple viscosity answer, it's already in my owner's manual. If I was still confused, I'd call my local MB dealer, and ask what they'd use. That way, I'd have one informed answer from an authority that is both familiar with my car and climate first hand.

Bo, I hope that you share my belief that these forums aren't a contest, but an opportunity to learn more than we knew before we came here. I'd rather be wrong most of the time, and learn something new, than be right most of the time and have people think that was all I lived for...

I never said that diesel grade motor oil was inferior, I just pointed out that it WAS diesel grade motor oil. Unfortunately, you did just what I was afraid you might do. You regarded my remarks as a challenge of your knowledge instead of as a suggestion that there was more to learn. So you decided you needed to defend your remarks without reading the oil threads that I and many others put a lot of time and energy into posting.

If you really want to know more about motor oil, read the links I posted and then get back to me. I'd love to hear your opinions, and if you like, debate any issues you would care to bring up.

But I hate having to go all over it again each time someone asks a question or states an opinion about motor oil.
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  #7  
Old 02-25-2002, 01:26 AM
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Longston, you’re still alive? I thought the Delco X-66 killed you off…

Just because an oil is diesel rated does not *in any way* mean that it is inappropriate for use in a gasoline fueled engine. As noted above, it is rated for use in both compression ignition & spark ignition engines. As a matter of fact, the higher soot suspension capacity of a CH oil can be advantageous in a higher mileage engine, with its inherent additional blowhard… oops, I meant blowby…

Loubapache has done a significant amount of research & appears to posses a thorough understanding on this subject matter. To discount this input in the manner that you displayed is unwarranted. Perhaps it is you that needs to, and I quote you here, “forget everything you think you have learned about motor oils and start over”. Do you believe that this language confers a tone of moderated debate, or one of pompous arrogance?

Do your own research into the differing base stocks & what is legally allowed to be labeled a “synthetic” oil. Look at the specifications. (This reminds me of one of the funniest lines in “A Fish Called Wanda”. Kevin Kline dialoguing with Jamie Lee Curtis: JLC: You’re an ape. KK: Apes don’t read philosophy. JLC: Yes, apes do read philosophy, - they just don’t understand it.)

Regarding the other threads you listed: Are you familiar with the old maxim of (paraphrasing here) “If they printed it, then it must be true”. How about this one (paraphrasing again): “tell a lie often enough, tell it convincingly enough, and people will believe it to be the truth”. Knowledge is power. Ignorance is…well, …uhh... it’s ignorance.

Regards,
RTH
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  #8  
Old 02-25-2002, 01:34 AM
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And let us not forget Mr. Hidalgo…

If the tragically misinformed have you now (unnecessarily) concerned about using Delo 400, or any other “universal” grade oil, then, in your climate, you can’t go wrong with a 20-50. Pick your poison as far as brand is concerned. I wouldn’t dare to suggest a brand in these environs.

RTH

Last edited by RunningTooHot; 02-25-2002 at 04:02 AM.
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  #9  
Old 02-25-2002, 08:51 AM
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Longston:

I read ALL the oil threads on Mercedesshop.com, ALL the oil threads in Edmonds.com, ALL the oil threads in tdiforum.com, ALL the oil threads in rotella.com, and ALL the oil threads in Ford-diesel.com, and plus a few other MB mailing lists.

What I offered is NOT an opinion, rather scientific tests to show Delo is one of the best conventional oils available to use in a Mercedes car, diesel or gasoline. If Checron wants it, it COULD call Delo synthetic as it uses a refined conventional oil that is superior to Group I base stocks used in Castrol GTX, Valvoline All Climate, just to name a few.

If you also offer scientific tests and numbers, I will be more than glad to learn from you.

Last edited by loubapache; 02-25-2002 at 09:11 AM.
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  #10  
Old 02-25-2002, 09:29 AM
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Oil Research Results

Below are two URLs that link to two tables I compiled by comparing popular motor oil specs.

Popular SJ/SL Oil Information
http://members.net-port.com/~loub/car/oil_S.htm

Popular SJ/CH-4 Oil Information
http://members.net-port.com/~loub/car/oil_C.htm

Once you see the table, the link on the oil's brand and viscosity is to the product specs of the oil's manufacture's Website, from which the numbers below are derived.

Some information about the numbers:

Viscosity Index (VI): It is a measure of the rate of change in kinetic viscosity over a given temperature range (40°C and 100°C ). Larger number indicates lesser change. Because oil thins out as temperature increases, a oil of higher VI will not thin out as much.

Kinetic Viscosity 40°C/100°C: This is related to VI and is measured in centistokes (cSt). These numbers are the kinetic viscosity measured at two temperatures. Note the number at higher temperature is lower due to oil thinning. A smaller number at low temperature and a higher number at high temperature are desired. For a 40 weight oil (the higher number after W), the number should be around 15 cSt at 100°C and for a 30 weight oil, it should be around 10 cSt at 100°C.

Pour Point: Fluidity at low temperatures in degrees Celsius (Fahrenheit). The lower the number, the better it flows at low temperature.

Flash Point: Temperature at which the oil starts to vaporize in degrees Celsius (Fahrenheit). Typically, the engines operates at around 100°C, plus or minus 20°C. The higher the number, the more stable the oil at high temperatures.

Cold Cranking Viscosity (CPV): This is measured in centipoises (cP). Cold Cranking Viscosity measures the resistance at a certain temperature, typically -15°C. However, different manufactures measure at different temperatures that makes this comparison more difficult. In general, a lower number indicates easier cold starting.

Total Base Number (TBN): Indicates stability, engine protection and cleanliness, and performance. Higher numbers are better. In general, oil rated at CG-4 and CH-4 has higher TBN than those only carrying the SJ and SL ratings.

Last edited by loubapache; 03-04-2002 at 03:23 PM.
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  #11  
Old 02-25-2002, 02:31 PM
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None So Blind...

Quote:
Originally posted by loubapache
I read ALL the oil threads on Mercedesshop.com
If that's true, you have read all of my postings about all of the research I have done on the subject...

And RTH, you read characters that are unwritten...

One last time. I didn't say anything about DELO except that it is designed to run in diesel engines, and that Larry Bible highly recommends it as a good multipurpose oil. I'm not saying or implying anything else about it.

This is why I hate oil threads... :p
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"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."
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  #12  
Old 02-25-2002, 02:48 PM
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<<
If that's true, you have read all of my postings about all of the research I have done on the subject...
>>
Sorry, Scott , if you call that research. I have read your posts and found them full of convoluted mis-information. I use a few in the first thread you posted as examples:

<<
Mercedes should revise their literature, as a CF rated oil is not designed for use in direct injection diesel engines. Mobil 1 has a CF rating. In my 1982 300SD, it would work great, but in a newer diesel with direct injection you need a CG-4 or even a CH-4 rated oil. DelVac or DelVac 1, DELO 400 or Rotella T may meet your requirements.
>>
Can you tell me which Mercedes diesel, sold in the US, is direct injection?

<<
An older Mercedes diesel with indirect injection will do just fine with Castrol 20W50.
>>
Are you saying Castrol 20W50 carries a C rating? Do you have a scan? I agree with you that a diesel engine should use oil that carries a C rating but Castrol 20W50 does not have that. Yes, oil has changed, so has the ratings (you said, oil has not changed, only the ratings).

I can go on and on and on if I have the time.

You can have the last word on this thread as I am not going to reply anymore to your posting.

Last edited by loubapache; 02-25-2002 at 02:58 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-25-2002, 05:12 PM
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Only The Mediocre Are Always At Their Best...

It was "GoldenBear" that brought up the direct and indirect injection matter in the first place, so ask him that question...

You're obviously misreading, and taking my comments out of context. For instance, regarding Castrol GTX, I said that it was rated for diesel use under the old system, and it hasn't changed since the rating system did (according to Castrol), so it is still an acceptable motor oil for use in Mercedes diesels. That is a simple fact.

But "convoluted mis-information"? That's a little harsh, isn't it? If you don't understand, ask, don't just condemn something someone says. Also, don't "yield the floor" to me, and deprive us of your knowledge on this, or any other subject. I'm here to learn, so stick around, and let us know what you have to say.

My original point of contention still stands. There is no way that Chevron DELO 400 "performs like a synthetic in every way". You could say that DELO has many desirable properties that make it an excellent multipurpose motor oil, but it isn't a synthetic, and does not perform like one. There is no way I would compare DELO to Mobil 1, Delvac 1, Redline, Amsoil, or even a synthetic blend. If you don't believe what I just wrote, ask a tech or chemist at any synthetic oil company what the difference is. Why not approach my remarks with an open mind, and find out what the facts are?
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"We drive into the future using only our rearview mirror."
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  #14  
Old 02-25-2002, 05:31 PM
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You seem to have a very narrow range for synthetic. Yes, Amsoil, Redline, and Mobile 1 are synthetics. There are many other synthertics as well. No one implied Delo is as good as the top three synthtic oils mentioned above but it is better than some synthetic and some synthetic blend.

If you go to read the fourth message in this thread, you will see "what the facts are". I offer scientific numbers and you like opinions.

Do you know what the definition is for a synthetic oil? Any hydroprocessed oil can be called synthetic by a judge's ruling. It is just up to the manufature how they want to call it. Castrol chose to call its Synthec synthetic (Group III base stock from conventional oil) but Chevron decided not to call Delo synthetic (Group II base stock from contentional oil).

Are you saying Castrol 20W-50 that meets the SJ rating is the same oil as the one meeting the old rating, say SG? Do you sincerely believe that? LOL.
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  #15  
Old 02-25-2002, 05:52 PM
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Question Well...

Scott,
I did think I asked a simple question. Boy, was I wrong or what?
However, I do have to respond to your inquiry.
I did mentioned in my initial thread that I did a search on the subject and I read the owner's manual BEFORE asking the question for the benefit of other members in this forum. I did not want to ask the dealership because, I believe, 1. they would be bias towards a certain product(s) sold at their place and 2. I wanted input from owners and techs around the country in this forum to come up with an educated decision in what to get.
I do want to get as much knowledge from this site as much as you and many others but, a one line reply could have avoided all these mambo-jumbo stuff.
I do not question your knowledge in the subject but it is unfortunate the way you want to get your point across.
Do what you preach and read my entire post, may be you can give a specific answer to my original question like some others already did. Thank you!
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Last edited by J.HIDALGO; 02-25-2002 at 10:47 PM.
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