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  #16  
Old 02-27-2002, 05:04 PM
vpm
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Smile 190e sunroof

my son has an '84 190e with a sunroof problem. i'm not too shy about tearing things apart so i went inot the trucnk and had a look see about the problem. if you pushed it back and pulled it forward ithe would work with the motor sometimes. the crank in the trunk didn't do much either.

i pulled the motor off of the cable and out of the truck. there is a very large metal gear in the center of the motor that engages the cable which goes to the sunroof. our gear was worn so badly, there was a grove worn right around the center, that there was no way it would work even with help.

anyway to the dealer i go and try to order a gear. no way jose. no gears available. you have to buy the entire motor to fix the problem. not cheap; used 135 and new 275. i htink yo could probably have a new gear made at a machine shop for less. but anyway we will get the new motor and install it. that should fix the problem. \\i will check to make sure the gold clip is attached properly to the sunroof itself.

i have talked to the dealer and they say that the key here is to keep the roof glides lubricated and the cable greased. this should minimize the weat on the gears.
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  #17  
Old 02-27-2002, 07:04 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posts: 107
I don't think that you can take out the liner without opening the sunroof because on my car the liner is sealed between the two layers of the roof. In your case i would try what the others have done and just push the button to open it and then try to force the roof to engage and sort of help it along. If you have a problem with that little clip then you should be able to get it started because that clip is supposed to connect the roof to the cable so you might be able to get the clip to catch it just enough to get the roof started.
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Pete

1986 Euro Black Metallic 190E 2.3 16V
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  #18  
Old 02-28-2002, 09:22 AM
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Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: New York City Burbs
Posts: 177
LOOK OUT VPM!

VPM-

You may want to make sure that the roof is sliding freely. The sunroof rails , I have read, are at least part of the problem if the motor eats the gear.

In other words, replacing the motor/gear may not solve the problem and the gear will get eaten up again

I'd be real interested to hear how you do.
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Patrick Leber
'84 190E 2.3
'83 Porsche 944 (track car)
'84 Porsche 944 (parts car)
85.5 Porsche 944 (sled)
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  #19  
Old 03-02-2002, 09:49 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posts: 107
Poping the liner

Hey any of you who were wondering whether or not you can remove the liner without having to move the sunroof, you actually can. The liner actually is not sealed underneath the roof. You can take a kitchen knife that is not sharp but firly thin, and you can gently slide it under the liner in the front and then just pop the liner down, the snaps will pop right down and once you do this there is a lever on the under side of the roof and you can manualy slide the roof back if you need to.
Good Luck!

Let me know how you guys are making out.
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Pete

1986 Euro Black Metallic 190E 2.3 16V
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  #20  
Old 03-04-2002, 11:59 AM
vmmp3
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sunroof

Pete

Thank you that is a great help. I will try it this today.
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  #21  
Old 03-05-2002, 01:45 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posts: 3,596
There seem to be a number of problems here, and Pete and I (I am Pete's Dad) managed to fix his car's sunroof for the cost of a clip Pete has mentioned. We are on vacation and Pete got a little too much of the 11,500 ft. altitude and local water, so he is somewhat out of commision. He asked that I check this thread and offer any help I can, so here goes.

First,to get the interior liner off, you do as Pete suggested, you unsnap what are four (maybe five) evenly spaced spring clips at the front edge of the sunroof. The spring clips are attached to a sheet metal insert in the front edge of the liner. Once you get them unsnapped you have to remove the liner. Pete and I did this by carefully just pulling it down. You kind of have to bow it down in the middle so the edges come free. When you put it back in, you open the roof, and feed it in from the top. If you can get the roof open to start with, it is much easier to pull the liner up and out through the hole in the roof as well. This is because the liner is wider than the interior openning in the roof, while the hole in the steel roof of the car is wider than the liner.

Some of the troubles each of you are having, except the individual with the roof that sags at the rear of the panel, sound much like Pete's. The sagging rear and slight movement under power are most likely clutch issues with the motor. There just is not enough clutch left to avoid slipping when the load increases. The cable has to push a cross beam forward once the roof is as far forward as it goes, and then lift and lock the rear of the roof panel. The motor load typically increases at this point, and can increase at any point along the sliding panel's track where there is dirt, lack of lubricant, or any other obstruction. There is an adjustment screw back on the motor in the trunk to fix that problem by tightening the clutch. If you have leakage of rain water or anything else it is most likely due to having one or more of the roof drains clogged. The sliding panel has no real seals to the steel roof. It is designed to leak into some gutters outside the rails, and then down drain lines in the "A" pillars and the "C" pillars. These can get clogged with junk, like leaves and pine needles, if you park under trees with the roof open. The "A" pillar drains can be seen just forward and outboard of the sunroof openning/rails.

For the others, when you get your liner off, you will see the cross beam the cable is attached to by the "gold" clip. It is actually galvanized sheet steel and is held in position by two screws. Pete's was so deformed you could not figure out how the whole mechanism worked by just looking at it.

Anyway, the clip connects the cable to the cross beam, and there is a tube behind the roof openning that guides the cable. The guide tube has a slit on the bottom. The clip is attached to the cable end "head" at the center of the clip, and then has a small, maybe 1/8" long, stub that points straight down, which then flares out into a delta wing shape (the clip has a 3-D shape, with the connection to the cable at the center and top of the clip, with the connections to the cross beam at the bottom). This is kind of hard to describe clearly, but when you see it you will catch on. The wings each have a hole for the screw that attaches the clip to the cross beam. As the cable is drawn into the guide tube, that vertical stub of the clip has to stick through the slit in the bottom of the guide tube. On Pete's car one of the screws fell out and the clip rotated and got all bent up so the stub would not line up with the slit in the guide tube. So the cable could not retract the roof.

While all this may sound simple, it was not that obvious when we got to the damaged clip, especially the clip interface with the cable and the guide tube.

I believe there are some limit switches in the system as well, as when Pete and I were installing the cable the dash switch action got reversed, meaning openning the roof actually shot the cable out, while closing it with the switch sucked the cable in towards the trunk. I ran the cable all the way in with the hand crank tool (attached to a ratchet with a big lever arm) a couple of times and the switch anomoly seemed to cure itself. I guessed there was a torque limit switch that got activated when the roof would not run at all and winding the cable all the way in reset it. This is pure conjecture though.

To get the clip lined up with the cross beam bolt holes, we had to fiddle with the switch a bunch of times. This would be easier using the hand crank feature, I think.

The cable had a serious coating of grease, which we did not renew. I read another thread here that you need some special grease for this purpose, and we concluded the thing was really covered with the stuff already, and it seemed reasonably clean. We did lubricate the rails with a synthetic spray lubricant. I owned the car for 16 years before Pete got it (I told him he could have it when he turned 16, when he was about 4. He often seems like he is not listening to me, but he heard that and held me to it.) and routinely lubed the rails.

This sliding roof setup is relatively simple, and be glad you do not have the tilting feature!

Good Luck, and contact Pete if you need more help as he was all over this job on his new car. I think we started this at about the time he got his license. It felt good fixing a Benz for the $.38 that clip cost. Jim
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Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Last edited by JimSmith; 03-05-2002 at 01:54 AM.
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  #22  
Old 03-06-2002, 03:54 PM
vmmp3
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sunroof

Pete and Pete's Dad,

I wanted to let you know that your input of fixing my sunroof helped. My clip had come apart. I fixed it. I don't think I would have figured it out without your help.


Thank you very much
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  #23  
Old 06-27-2002, 12:15 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 150
i'm having a problem with the sunroof on my 16v. i did a search and found this thread which helped me take my sunroof apart. but, i still can't find the problem. my cable clip is okay, still holding onto the cable fine. the switch and motor are working fine. the symptom is that the sunroof only opens and closes about 20mm. the motor moves that far and then it stops like something is jamming, preventing further movement. i have the metal sunroof off and can see that it's not the tracks that are causing a problem. the cable seems to move okay through the housing. i think the problem is the gearbox that actually moves the cable. the plastic nut on the side of the gearbox was stipped when i looked at it and it wouldn't turn at all. i managed to break it completely trying free it up. so, now i've got the motor disconnected from the mounting bracket and the cover off the gearbox. i can't figure out how to get the gear out of the box to check and see if any of the teeth are broken, or if anything else is broken, causing the jam. so, what should i do now? any help will be appreciated.

thanks
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dew
86' 190e 2.3L 16v
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  #24  
Old 06-27-2002, 01:10 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Old Lyme, Connecticut
Posts: 3,596
jasondew,

At this point you have exceeded any of my experience. I might put the whole thing back together, and disconnect the clip from the roof panel and try to operate the electric motor to see if the motor will pull the cable all the way in and out. If it does, I believe there is an adjustment to make to adjust the clutch mechanism. If the clutch mechanism is worn, it may slip when it gets loaded pulling and pushing the roof panel. Do another search on sunroof clutch adjustments as there are some very detailed instructions in a few other threads on this subject. If the gear teeth were stripped or broken off I think you would hear that.

In the end I think I might locate a used one in a junk yard or try FastLane. Fixing the one you have is likely possible, but you will need some instructions that I am unable to give you. And you will need some parts if you broke the manual operating nut off or find the gear box needs work.

Sorry I cannot be of much more help, and good luck, Jim
__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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