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  #16  
Old 06-18-2014, 07:57 PM
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Download the following pdf and read the article beginng on page 3. It applies to all older engines - any with sliding surfaces in the valve train.

http://stlouisncrs.org/news_files/St_Louis_NCRS_Chapter_July_2011.pdf

Duke
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  #17  
Old 06-18-2014, 08:23 PM
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Thanks Duke, I love reading that stuff and something tells me there's information in there you're the wiser to. Anything you've got on motor oils and lubricants I'd be interested in. Thanks, Jeff
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87 190D 2.5 Turbo
73 280 base
69 Seafarer 31-1
Sold----
93 300E 2.8
92 190E 2.3
85 500SEC
71 220b
73 280SE 4.5
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  #18  
Old 06-19-2014, 09:21 PM
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There's nothing more I can say about engine oil.

I use Redline MTL in the five-speed of my 190E 2.6, SAE 80W-90 GL-5 gear oil in the axle, DOT 4 brake fluid, and Zerex G-05 antifreeze.

As a long life grease for wheel bearings, suspension and steering joints I prefer something with a full synthtic base like Mobil 1 grease, which is a high drop-point NGLI #2, and there are many that are essentially the same on the market.

In most cases I recommend what the manufacturer recommends, but when it's something like "use MB power steering fluid", it creates a dilemma because what they sell is likely a generic product in their own package that costs several times what the generic product costs.

A few years ago I wanted to flush my power steering system and change the filter. After some research I ended up using Pyroil PS fluid, which is reasonably priced power steering fluid that appears to compatible with most PS systems except Hondas for a reason that I don't understand.

For years I wondered what was so special about MB antifreeze. It was after the Chrysler Daimler-Benz merger when Chryler began using "MB antifreeze", which became available on the aftermarket as Zerex G-05, and I was able to determine that it is the same BASF developed HOAT product that MB used for a long time including the late eighties.

Duke
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  #19  
Old 06-19-2014, 10:43 PM
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ZDDP for MEEE

Right on, forgot about MTL. I too have had a nice experience with that stuff in Borg-Warner T5's. If I get a 5 speed into my 190D Turbo I'll probably try it there too. I'd put MB coolant in my lawnmower if I could.

Back to motor oils for the M110 and others of that generation of valve design, more SHOULD be mentioned about ZDDP levels of motor oils amongst the "sliding surfaces" lifter vehicle operators. I've never used Lucas motor oil, but they seem to be making flat-tappet hot rod owners happy with their ZDDP "enhanced" oil. The Schaeffer's SAE 20 for my boat engine is about 1250ppm, a little above the 1000ppm standard prior to the reformulations for rolling surfaces.

Lastly, I've come to see that high TBN ratings are also not necessary in gasoline automobiles, but for sulfur management in diesel combustion blow-by and not even so much for that anymore either according to Morris Lubricants. Although Mercedes designates oils and includes TBN in that spec hierarchy. I found an oil once with a TBN of 20 (twenty) and it was made for trucks that were going to burn the lowest grade diesel found, like from barrels in villages they would drive through. Morris Lubricants wrote: "I would suggest that you would want a low TBN as using a product with a high TBN would lead to premature glazing and also our fuel quality has greatly improved from when the engine was first produced." They were answering a question I had about their SAE 20 (TBN of 4) for my diesel Volvo-Penta MD2 built in 1968.

Could anyone expand upon what Morris was calling "glazing"? Is this a polishing of the cylinder wall and a loss of effective ring sealing and how does the Total Base Number contribute to this problem?





Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke2.6 View Post
There's nothing more I can say about engine oil.

I use Redline MTL in the five-speed of my 190E 2.6, SAE 80W-90 GL-5 gear oil in the axle, DOT 4 brake fluid, and Zerex G-05 antifreeze.

As a long life grease for wheel bearings, suspension and steering joints I prefer something with a full synthtic base like Mobil 1 grease, which is a high drop-point NGLI #2, and there are many that are essentially the same on the market.

In most cases I recommend what the manufacturer recommends, but when it's something like "use MB power steering fluid", it creates a dilemma because what they sell is likely a generic product in their own package that costs several times what the generic product costs.

A few years ago I wanted to flush my power steering system and change the filter. After some research I ended up using Pyroil PS fluid, which is reasonably priced power steering fluid that appears to compatible with most PS systems except Hondas for a reason that I don't understand.

For years I wondered what was so special about MB antifreeze. It was after the Chrysler Daimler-Benz merger when Chryler began using "MB antifreeze", which became available on the aftermarket as Zerex G-05, and I was able to determine that it is the same BASF developed HOAT product that MB used for a long time including the late eighties.

Duke
__________________
87 190D 2.5 Turbo
73 280 base
69 Seafarer 31-1
Sold----
93 300E 2.8
92 190E 2.3
85 500SEC
71 220b
73 280SE 4.5
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  #20  
Old 06-20-2014, 10:45 AM
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A couple of points. As you should know from the article ZDDP is NOT measured in ppm. Once someone says this, all bets are off. They don't understand oil formulation.

Morris Lubricants wrote: "I would suggest that you would want a low TBN as using a product with a high TBN would lead to premature glazing and also our fuel quality has greatly improved from when the engine was first produced."

I've never heard this one before, nor have I ever heard of Morris Lubricants, so I don't know if it has any technical basis or is just marketing/internet hype.

CJ-4 has a lower TBN than previous C-category oils because it is formulated for low sulfur diesel fuel. Current diesel fuel for over-the-road diesels has sulfur level in the same ballpark as gasoline, about 10 ppm, so a high TBN for high sulfur (500 ppm) diesel fuel is no longer necessary. You can check various spec sheets on the Web, but I think the TBN of typical CJ-4 is not much more than typical SN.

Duke
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  #21  
Old 06-20-2014, 11:04 AM
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Your article was in the vernacular for domestic car enthusiasts, don't get me started... Since you're educating the general public about ZDDP, then you can discuss it too. How do you understand ZDDP to be measured in lubricants, percent of weight or volume?
I've just received this email from Schaeffer Oil regarding one of their products;
"I can tell you that the Zinc is 1700-1900 ppm and the Phosphorous is 1600-1900 ppm." I'm just not convinced that ppm is an inferior method of measuring suspended molecules in a liquid, our emissions are measured in ppm also. Not sure what hype you're talking about, the quotes I relayed were from personal communications that a phone call would not have enhanced.
__________________
87 190D 2.5 Turbo
73 280 base
69 Seafarer 31-1
Sold----
93 300E 2.8
92 190E 2.3
85 500SEC
71 220b
73 280SE 4.5

Last edited by WindyGo; 06-20-2014 at 01:27 PM.
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  #22  
Old 06-21-2014, 10:33 AM
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As stated in the article the mass fraction of phosphorous (P on the Periodic Chart of Elements) is used as a surrogate for ZDDP content.

No API certified engine oil that I'm aware of ever exceeded much over 1200 ppm P, and more can be detrimental due to long term corrosion mechanisms that have been observed at elevated ZDDP levels. Most "boutique" oils that I've seen are NOT API certified or carry an obsolete classification.

Back before there were limits on P (which began with SL), the P concentration of typical dual-rated (both spark and compression ignition engines) engine oils was in the range about 1200+ ppm. The limit on SN is 800 ppm - about a one-third reduction. The CJ-4 limit of 1200 ppm, which is only a marginal reduction from typical CI-4s, which had no limit.

Duke

Last edited by Duke2.6; 06-21-2014 at 11:22 AM.
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  #23  
Old 06-21-2014, 11:17 AM
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The last ten years have been heaven with well designed Mercedes cars that use publicly listed lubricants, now so I don't have to get into starburst research at an autoparts store (API, JASO, ILSAC, GL JP ABC 123, etc which are all hack institutes working within the industry). Certainly they're capable enough to engineer a catalytic converter to handle zinc, they go to school for a long time and do more than make cars smell new. I'm sure there was a time when Benz owners needed to know those certifications like Morse Code in FCC amateur radio licensing, but not anymore. As long as I have a Benz, I'll be satisfied with the BeVo approved list below:
Mercedes-Benz Specifications for Operating Fluids: Overview Sheets
I'm waiting back to hear more numbers from my current 229.5 oil manufacturer, concerned it has diminished zinc for younger engines, but scheduled today to change the oil in my diesel Volvo-Penta MD2 (15.5hp@2300rpms) with Schaeffer SAE 20, a ZDDP level of about 1700-1900 ppm and a Phosphorous rating of 1600-1900 ppm.
__________________
87 190D 2.5 Turbo
73 280 base
69 Seafarer 31-1
Sold----
93 300E 2.8
92 190E 2.3
85 500SEC
71 220b
73 280SE 4.5
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  #24  
Old 06-21-2014, 11:35 AM
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As I stated in the article, current OEM specifications for lubricants are for their current products, not decades old products, so a little thought and analysis may be necessary to determine what is best for vintage applications.

API et al. are hardly "hack institutes". Technical professionals from the various industry members form committees to develop standards that are usually embraced throughout the entire industry.

Duke
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  #25  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:02 AM
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All of this has had me studying up on the rating system last couple of days, long over due and can thank the forum for bringing me to that. As a result, I'm changing from a 229.5 oil to a 229.1 in my 87 190D Turbo and staying with that spec in the M110. The 228.3 oils I found were SM oils or CJ-4 for cat equipped vehicles, but the Liqui Moly 10w-40 MOS2 seems like the best bet. Total and Liqui-Moly have older formulations (VDS is a good early full zinc cert from Volvo). However I may end up with SWEPCO 306 and some 502 together. Brad Penn is my possible other choice but it's a race/"hot rod" oil and those owners like to change their oil when they feel like and that can be a lot. The LM 10w-40 MoS2 has done well in my 73 M110 engine too. With that oil and all things being healthy, my M110 gets smoother and smoother, including the valve train which I know is well adjusted. Ferrari and Porsche dealerships use SWEPCO 502 as it helps with valve train noise and dry starts, something that sounds good for my boat motor and maybe the horizontal shaft Coleman gen. I'm due for an oil change in my OM602A and still watching my M110 oil slowly get dirtier, but am quite comfortable with the Liqui-Moly 10w-40 MoS2, Schaeffer Oil makes a strong zinc oil but SWEPCO has the older CI/SL specs for 15W-40 much like Liqui-Moly. I did learn a lot from the Porsche community on line, it's easy to tell the hands on rich guy forums from the armchair ones, but those motors eat zinc and they're all afraid of any oil that isn't modern and full of zinc.
__________________
87 190D 2.5 Turbo
73 280 base
69 Seafarer 31-1
Sold----
93 300E 2.8
92 190E 2.3
85 500SEC
71 220b
73 280SE 4.5

Last edited by WindyGo; 06-24-2014 at 02:20 AM.
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