Looks like I have to buy a petrol engined "new" car - W210 vs W140 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Stretch · #1 05-23-2013, 11:25 AM

G'day Folks,

Mad Dutch road tax situation strikes!

I'd like to own a car that is as old as the hills and drive it all year but some fool in Den Haag has decided that cars older than 26 years old are not allowed to be driven in December, January or February any more...

...bunch of useless cock heads...

...so I was thinking about something that is new(er).

It has to have a petrol engine for tax reasons (diesel LPG are penalised) - and I don't drive great distances - say about 3000 - 4000 km per year

Road tax for a year on a W210 (1500 kg) will cost about 850 euros a year

Road tax for a year on a W140 (1950 kg) will cost about 1250 euros a year

Question time =>

1) In your opinion is the W140 worth the extra road tax?! Is it a way better car?

2) Rust is a big problem on the W210 but the W140 is famed for being well built despite being born at the same time. Did Mercedes use different factories for these vehicles? How come the W140 is so much better built?

Zulfiqar · #2 05-23-2013, 11:33 AM

the W140 attention to build detail is staggering.

MAVA · #3 05-23-2013, 12:12 PM

In the cold climates. Rust is an issue with both cars. I've seen some sub-frame replacement on both cars which here in North America. It is just unheard of. We have the issues of heat-paint break down-rubber body seals cracking-etc..

I have both cars-Two W140's one W210(wagon). If I had to get rid of two cars. I'd keep my 1996 S320. Easy to work on-lots of engine space. No hydraulic shocks or heated seats, yet like all W140s it just has more parts to fail than W210. If you do not like to tinker, they can burden a person. For me the pay-off is the ride. The fuel economy is a little better than my W210. W140 has a higher interval of maintenance compared to any other car. Most are just run down-Antennas do not work-close assist pumps leaking-crack or torn leather seats...

Since you rebuild transmissions, 96 was the last Hydraulic transmission on the S320, 1995 for the V8 & V12 models. After those years,the first generation 722.6's came into play 1996 and 1997 had many revisions. It had so many revisions that 96/97 will not work 98/99 car. K2 bearing is a big issue on the 722.6 from 96 to early 99, and when the bearing goes one has little time before the planetary gears destroy everything, and sadly the shaft has to be replaced because Mercedes updated the shaft it will not mate to the other shaft(because of new bearing size), so that shaft has to be purchased too. The price for each shaft(front and rear) at wholesale Mercedes prices is about $750USD(that is If you have a connection with a wholesale MERCEDES dealer). This is a problem for the W210 of 96-99 too.

Early W140's are more stylish, and are more elegant, but evaporator and engine wiring issues plag the early years. For some reason the early W140's we hard on ignition issues. The later W140s with no distributors just work all the time with no issues...

The W210 has the rust issue with spring perch on the non 4matic version. The spring support will just break. If you want something practical W210 is the best choice. Just get 2000 - 2002 with the second generation 722.6. the car will run like a top

I like big cars, so my opinion is just skewed. I like to tinker, and the ride on W140 is just worth the extra effort.

Either car is fine...

Martin

anziani · #4 05-23-2013, 12:13 PM

Stretch,
Why are diesel/LPG penalized? Over here they are praised for their economy. (They USED to be economical.) And the American Revolution II would start if any stupid government started charging $1100 to $1700 per year in "road tax". You Europeans need to grow some cajones and just say "NO"
Anziani

bhatt · #5 05-23-2013, 12:27 PM

Simple decision. How much of your own work do you do, and do you have a good source for used parts?

W210 - simpler car of the two. No hydraulics, gadgets, toys, etc. Not as nice a ride as a W140 but much cheaper to keep on the road. Can be taken to a mechanic once in a while without emptying your wallet.

W140 - amazing car, but complex. These cars were $100,000USD when new, and parts prices and repair frequency is still based on that. If you take it to a mechanic and start fixing stuff, it will get expensive FAST. But it's not a huge amount harder to work on than a W210

So if you do all your own work, W140. If you rely on dealers, mechanics and have limited sources for cheap parts, W210.

Stretch · #6 05-23-2013, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAVA

In the cold climates. Rust is an issue with both cars. I've seen some sub-frame replacement on both cars which here in North America. It is just unheard of. We have the issues of heat-paint break down-rubber body seals cracking-etc..

I have both cars-Two W140's one W210(wagon). If I had to get rid of two cars. I'd keep my 1996 S320. Easy to work on-lots of engine space. No hydraulic shocks or heated seats, yet like all W140s it just has more parts to fail than W210. If you do not like to tinker, they can burden a person. For me the pay-off is the ride. The fuel economy is a little better than my W210. W140 has a higher interval of maintenance compared to any other car. Most are just run down-Antennas do not work-close assist pumps leaking-crack or torn leather seats...

Since you rebuild transmissions, 96 was the last Hydraulic transmission on the S320, 1995 for the V8 & V12 models. After those years,the first generation 722.6's came into play 1996 and 1997 had many revisions. It had so many revisions that 96/97 will not work 98/99 car. K2 bearing is a big issue on the 722.6 from 96 to early 99, and when the bearing goes one has little time before the planetary gears destroy everything, and sadly the shaft has to be replaced because Mercedes updated the shaft it will not mate to the other shaft(because of new bearing size), so that shaft has to be purchased too. The price for each shaft(front and rear) at wholesale Mercedes prices is about $750USD(that is If you have a connection with a wholesale MERCEDES dealer). This is a problem for the W210 of 96-99 too.

Early W140's are more stylish, and are more elegant, but evaporator and engine wiring issues plag the early years. For some reason the early W140's we hard on ignition issues. The later W140s with no distributors just work all the time with no issues...

The W210 has the rust issue with spring perch on the non 4matic version. The spring support will just break. If you want something practical W210 is the best choice. Just get 2000 - 2002 with the second generation 722.6. the car will run like a top

I like big cars, so my opinion is just skewed. I like to tinker, and the ride on W140 is just worth the extra effort.

Either car is fine...

Martin

Thanks Martin - great help. I'll not be blinded by the no rust theory then...

...I've seen a few W140s with manual transmissions for sale over here that might suit.

Stretch · #7 05-23-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anziani

Stretch,
Why are diesel/LPG penalized? Over here they are praised for their economy. (They USED to be economical.) And the American Revolution II would start if any stupid government started charging $1100 to $1700 per year in "road tax". You Europeans need to grow some cajones and just say "NO"
Anziani

LPG and diesel are considered to be "business user" fuels. You are expected to drive about 25,000 km per year plus - the average here is about 12,000 to 15,000 per year so you need to go a bit further than most to make the extra road tax pay.

As for just say "NO" they'd only tax something else to make it pay. The government has gotten used to a certain amount - it won't take a pay cut. Also as an Englishman I don't get the vote - but to be honest even if I did have the vote my little "NO" wouldn't change the system. Back in the UK I think it would cost about 200 GBP per year for road tax for either the W210 or the W140.

Stretch · #8 05-23-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhatt

Simple decision. How much of your own work do you do, and do you have a good source for used parts?

W210 - simpler car of the two. No hydraulics, gadgets, toys, etc. Not as nice a ride as a W140 but much cheaper to keep on the road. Can be taken to a mechanic once in a while without emptying your wallet.

W140 - amazing car, but complex. These cars were $100,000USD when new, and parts prices and repair frequency is still based on that. If you take it to a mechanic and start fixing stuff, it will get expensive FAST. But it's not a huge amount harder to work on than a W210

So if you do all your own work, W140. If you rely on dealers, mechanics and have limited sources for cheap parts, W210.

I never employ anyone to do anything if I can help it. I guess I'd have to get used to working with electrickery but other than that no great hurdles are expected. Famous last words!

Zulfiqar · #9 05-23-2013, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

LPG and diesel are considered to be "business user" fuels. You are expected to drive about 25,000 km per year plus - the average here is about 12,000 to 15,000 per year so you need to go a bit further than most to make the extra road tax pay.

As for just say "NO" they'd only tax something else to make it pay. The government has gotten used to a certain amount - it won't take a pay cut. Also as an Englishman I don't get the vote - but to be honest even if I did have the vote my little "NO" wouldn't change the system. Back in the UK I think it would cost about 200 GBP per year for road tax for either the W210 or the W140.

do the dutch gov'mint smoke something special?

Stretch · #10 05-23-2013, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar

do the dutch gov'mint smoke something special?

The Dutch economic system makes no sense to me.

Zulfiqar · #11 05-23-2013, 02:34 PM

they need to lay easy on the smoke machines

btw if you get a W140 - you would be having a ball of a time because there is so much to take apart in them. imagine it like there are 3 W123 hidden in one body.

Stretch · #12 05-24-2013, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zulfiqar

they need to lay easy on the smoke machines

btw if you get a W140 - you would be having a ball of a time because there is so much to take apart in them. imagine it like there are 3 W123 hidden in one body.

Well I have a W123 300D with virtually no options so I guess there are about 7 of my W123s in a nicely spec'd W140.

The prices for the W140s seem to start at about 3000 euros for something with mega miles that obviously needs help - the driver's seats seem to take a beating from people climbing in and out. There are, however, several W140s for sale at the moment with low miles (actually kms here!) in really nice condition for about 10,000 euros. Quite a lot of car for the money...

lsmalley · #13 05-24-2013, 03:18 AM

no wonder there is so much government aid and socialized medicine over there.....the government is taxing the f$&@ out of any and everything

Zulfiqar · #14 05-24-2013, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

Well I have a W123 300D with virtually no options so I guess there are about 7 of my W123s in a nicely spec'd W140.

The prices for the W140s seem to start at about 3000 euros for something with mega miles that obviously needs help - the driver's seats seem to take a beating from people climbing in and out. There are, however, several W140s for sale at the moment with low miles (actually kms here!) in really nice condition for about 10,000 euros. Quite a lot of car for the money...

I see you love to take things apart and see how they work. In all honesty if you take apart a W140 you will appreciate the threepointed star marque.

Its put together like nothing else. That is why when you are wafting along in it at over 200 km/h the cabin is so silent that you can easily hear your inner voice. Makes up for "I honestly didnt know how fast I was going officer" - its true.

Stretch · #15 05-24-2013, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lsmalley

no wonder there is so much government aid and socialized medicine over there.....the government is taxing the f$&@ out of any and everything

Trying to put this into context for you => I understand that the English tax system is very much like the American in the way that about the same amount percentage wise is lifted from the tax payers - well in the North Eastern states anyway.

Percentage wise in Holland it seems as though the Dutch are getting a bad deal compared with the English - so you could transpose that to percentage wise the Dutch are having a bad deal compared with the US too...

...the thing is though I've found that in a country where the taxes do seem high you do get a lot back. Things just work a lot better, everything is cleaner and better looked after. Roads get built and repaired etc etc etc - you do live in a better place as a result of higher taxation.

Comparing English taxation with Dutch - I get the feeling of better value for money under the Dutch system. In England I often had the feeling what the ###*##*** are they doing with all of that money? And sure the Dutch are no way near perfect but you do see at a personal level that the government is doing something with your taxes.

In context of this thread =>

I don't really have too much of an issue with the cost of road tax here - I'm part of the system - but I do object to ignorant a-holes coming up with rules that I can't drive an old car in winter. That's just stupid, uninformed, ignorant, envious...