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  #16  
Old 04-13-2002, 09:30 AM
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To me, it is simply a marketing move.

They talked about how good the low temperature performance is of the new with SuperSyn. But the fact of matter is that the 10W30 with SuperSyn has a pour point that is 15 deg F higher (-49 deg F in SuperSyn vs. -65 deg F in Tri-Synthetic) than that of the Tri-Synthetic.

They also talked about how good the high temperature performance is of the new with SuperSyn. But the fact of matter is that the 10W30 with SuperSyn has a flash point that is 15 deg F lower (455 deg F in Supersyn vs. 470 deg F in Tri-Synthetic) than that of the Tri-Synthetic.

To meet the tough Eurp specs, the pour point of the 0W-30 and 0W-40 did not increase (suggesting the same amount of PAO in the base stock mix).

I am done with Mobil 1.

Anybody interested in buying four 5-qt jugs of Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 10W-30? Pick-up only please or I can deliver to Grand Rapids. The price is $17.88 plus 6% tax so it is $18.95 per jug (that is what I paid at Wal-Mart on 3/3/02.
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  #17  
Old 04-13-2002, 01:41 PM
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I've really been enjoying reading all of your posts on oil, and appreciate all of the knowledge you have on synthetics, and taking the time to share it with us. Keep up the good work.

What brand of synthetic do you plan on using next?

My father always used Amsoil. His 1981 380 SE went just shy of 400,000 miles when he passed away, and he always changed his oil every 3,000 miles or 3 months, whichever came first.

The only problem is, it's hard to get. Not available retail.

If I recall, he became an authorized dealer, and ordered it in bulk for himself, friends, and family.

Fwiw, my dad also worked for an oil company his whole life (Unocal), and knew quite a bit about oil. And when the synthetics came out, he was a biiiig convert.
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  #18  
Old 04-13-2002, 10:42 PM
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<<
I've really been enjoying reading all of your posts on oil, and appreciate all of the knowledge you have on synthetics, and taking the time to share it with us. Keep up the good work.
>>
Thanks.

<<
What brand of synthetic do you plan on using next?
>>
Well, I have quite some Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 10W-30 left in my garage. I never paid over $4/qt on any synthetic oil. The Castrol Syntec and Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic I have been using are the 5-qt jug variety from Wal-Mart, always, for less than $4/qt.

I will take a rest from Mobil 1 for now.

If I were going out tomorrow to buy some synthetic oil for the gasoline engines, I would buy the Havoline line of Synthetic oil. Normally it is only available in 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosities, but they also have a 5W-40. AutoZones' regular price is $3.27/qt. Some store managers are willing to order for customers for the 5W-40. I talked to mine and he said if I buy at least 4 cases (24 qts, he can order). You can see the specs at
http://members.net-port.com/~loub/car/oil_S.htm

Very impressive specs. It out-specs Mobil 1 SuperSyn in every number I have listed (I use 10W-30).

If I were going out tomorrow to buy some synthetic oil for the diesel engines, I would buy the Chevron Delo Synthetic 5W-40. It is only available from Chevron distributors and some truck stops. The price is around $13 per gallon. You can see the specs at
http://members.net-port.com/~loub/car/oil_C.htm

I am wiling to try all sorts of oils but I always read the specs. For example, today I bought some Quaker State Higher Mileage 10W-30 at Menards for $1.69/qt (sale priced) with a $1/qt rebate so it will be $0.69/qt plus postage and envelope. I will first try it in the 1991 300E in the Michigan winter. These oils are more viscous than the typical 10W-30 (it is between 10W-30 and 10W-40) and has an extra anti-wear and seal conditioning additive package.

Last edited by loubapache; 04-13-2002 at 10:48 PM.
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  #19  
Old 04-15-2002, 01:18 AM
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Location: San Antone
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Bo:

I appreciate your effort and info you've provided about the changes Mobile 1 is going through. I looked at a 1 qt. container of the new Super Syn 15W-50 at Wal Mart and, significantly, the label did not say it was M-B approved as is the Tri Synthetic formula in 15W-50 (I did not look at the other weight categories for the Super Syn).

What do you think of using the old Tri Synthetic formula 15W-50 in my '77 300D? I just rebuilt the diesel engine myself about 2,000 miles ago and will change to a synthetic oil at the next oil change (break-in with Chevron Delo 15W-40). The Tri Synthetic formula has a CF API rating which should work in my engine and I like the 15W-50 because I live in Texas where high temps are almost here. Also, I can buy the Tri Synthetic at Wal Mart for $17.88 in a 5 quart jug (what's left of the old stock) in enough quantity for 3 oil changes (about 1 year) - and then see how things shake out with some of the newer diesel synthetic oils now being introduced. The Tri Synthetic 15W-50 also has better specs than the Chevron 5W-40 synthetic you recommended for diesel engines (except it carries the CH-4 rating which I do not believe has any benefits for my older engine), as well as other synthetic oils for diesels I've looked at, which is why I'm leaning toward buying the remaining Tri Synthetic stock at Wal Mart.

Any comments you have will be appreciated.

Tom
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America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

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Formerly:
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  #20  
Old 04-15-2002, 09:51 AM
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Valvoline SynPower

I also have been dissapointed with Mobil's manuevering lately. I think that Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec are great ultra-refined mineral oils, but I refuse to support companies that use misleading marketing like they do. BMW recently added Valvoline's SynPower to their list of approved oils, so I will use that in my engine for now and continue to use Redline or Amsoil everywhere else.
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  #21  
Old 04-15-2002, 10:09 AM
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tcane:

If I were you and if I were in TX, I would just run Delo 400 15W-40 year round. If you invest in an oil analysis, you might be surprised by its performance in your diesel. Delo also has a straight 40 and 50 oil, so if high temp s your concern, 40 or 50 might work very well.

Many diesel owners run Mobil 1 15W-50 and that is fine as long as you keep it changed in shorter intervals due to the lower soot handling capacity of the CF oils.

There are just my opinions.
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  #22  
Old 04-15-2002, 12:38 PM
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Bo:

Thanks for the reply and info. I picked Chevron's Delo because its specs and reputation were very good. I want to switch to synthetic oil to reduce wear and lower temperatures, although the better diesel oils (like Delo) should also be good, just not as good.

I rebuilt the engine using cast iron alloy piston rings made by Deves and they do a far better job of sealing the combustion chamber gasses from the cranckcase when compared to the chrome plated rings M-B uses. The M-B rings use combustion gasses to force the ring against the cylinder wall and this design allows some combustion gas to enter the crankcase. The Deves rings do not use combustion gasses to seal the ring to the cylinder wall and far less combustion gas enters the crankcase. I can verify that far less combustion gas enters the crankcase because the oil has remained very clean and with the M-B rings the oil would look dirty almost immediatley after an oil change (on the diesel forum many other owners would agree with the dirty oil look right after an oil change).

My point being that I do not think soot will be a problem even though Mobile 1 Tri Synthetic has a CF rating. However, as you wrote, the only way to know is doing an oil analysis. Also, I was planning on changing the Mobile 1 oil at 5,000-6,000 miles based on my driving habits of 70-80% highway driving with distances exceeding the time needed for the oil to get hot enough to purge contaminates. Replacing the Mobile 1 at 5,000-6,000 miles and replacing the oil filter mid-way (at 2,500-3,000 miles) should minimize the potential problem of soot contamination. I will take an oil sample at about 3,000 miles for analysis no matter which synthetic oil I use to see what the results are to make sure that the engine is not being damaged.

Any comments/suggestions you have would be appreciated. I look forward to reading more of your insights about Mobile 1's machinations and news about other oils.

Tom
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America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

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Formerly:
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Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
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  #23  
Old 04-15-2002, 01:09 PM
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tcane:

Your change interval is certainly good with Mobil 1 15W-50 and your driving style. If I were you, I would not bother to change the filter in the middle interval as the standard filter cannot filter soot particles anyway (too small for the filter).

You mentioned about the lack of MB approval of the new SuerSyn in a previous post. The 15W-50 oil is NOT available in Germany (they have a 5W-50 that we do not see here). That might be the reason that the new one has not carried the approval yet (it eventually will, I believe).

I think I said before about this. Mobil 1 0W-40 and 15W-50 are excellent oils but the 5W-30 and 10W-30 with SuperSyn showed some deteriorations in terms of pour and flash points, and cold pumpability. Incidentally, Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30 are not available in Germany.

The 15W-50 with SuperSyn has something like Roger Penske uses it but then it says someting like suitable for amature racing. This is a nother double talk I do not like. Mobil wants us to believe that the oil we buy at the stores are the ones used in professsional auto racings. But they are apparently not.

Last edited by loubapache; 04-15-2002 at 02:36 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-15-2002, 02:28 PM
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We are all in your debt for the oil report.Thanks Michael
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  #25  
Old 04-16-2002, 11:04 AM
Don Stevens
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Amsoil - First and still the best

I have read this thread with interest and noticed only one comment about Amsoil. It seems it is a well kept secret in MB circles too. Check out;

www.lubedealer.com/dstevens

then click on the corporate website and/or the online store. Look at the mian page where Amsoil discusses it's "First's" in the industry. One area where they are proud to say they were not "first" is bait and switch re-formulation with less expensive base stocks and less expensive additives. Amsoil remains fully committed to full group IV PAO basestocks and the best additive packages available anywhere in the world.

Hard to find on retail store shelves? Perhaps, but readily available factory direct online with delivery right to your door(US and Canada) What is more convenient than that? Second, the "Preferred Customer" discount brings prices for most viscosities right in line with Mobil-1. I also have dealers all over the US so if you would like to talk to a local guy to your area, contact me via e-mail and I will refer you to a local dealer.

I have personnaly used the product for four years with extended drains in my 197,000 mile 17 year old BMW with excellent results. The stuff is for real and a better value than the big company BS.

Please read the FAQ at the website and feel free to fire any questions my way at p911sc44@hotmail.com.

Don Stevens
Independent Amsoil Dealer
Use customer number 508684
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  #26  
Old 04-17-2002, 12:29 AM
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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Well, the way I see it, it's a $1 a quart more expensive, quart for quart. If I buy Mobil 1 in the 5 qt jug, it's more like $2 a quart more expensive. How do I become a preferred customer?
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  #27  
Old 04-17-2002, 11:11 AM
Don Stevens
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Amsoil Preferred Customer Link

B Steep,

Go to this link;

https://www.amsoil.com/preferred.htm

And fill out the form. Use 508684 as your customer number and me as the dealer who introduced you.

It is that simple and if you want to order product today you can take advantage of the 20-25% discounts right away.

Thanks,

Don Stevens
Independent Amsoil Dealer #508684
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  #28  
Old 04-19-2002, 12:48 AM
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Posts: 408
NOACK Volatility and Four Ball Wear Tests

Bo:

I'm back again with more questions after doing more research about the oil I will put in my '77 300D diesel engine after the next oil change and whether to change to synthetic or not.

I looked at your specs for various oils and did not see either the NOACK Volatility Test (oil heated to 250 C/500 F for one hour, measure the remainder that has not evaporated, used as a measure of oil consumption) or the Four Ball Wear Test (one ball bearing rotated against three fixed ball bearings, rotating ball bearing is forced against the fixed bearings at a specified preassure, at 150 C, at a specified rpm for one hour, measure the scoring on the bearing, determines the wear on sliding parts like overhead camshaft to rocker arm and piston to cylinder wall).

What do you think of these tests? It seems to me that when evaluating the top oils in a certain category to determine one to choose that the NOACK and Four Ball tests may be a determining factor when other specs are close (such as viscosity index, pour point, flash point, TBN, HT/HS spec, phosphorous/zinc/sulfated ash content, etc., etc.).

I would like your comments about the following info/specs I found about diesel oils from the Motor Oil Bible by Michael Kaufman and the GoSynthetic web site (these oils also have API S ratings for gas engines).

NOACK Volatility Test, ASTM D-5800, Mar. 2000, all 15W-40 oils:

Brand and % Evaporated

Amsoil synthetic diesel/marine 6.60
Valvoline Premium Blue 11.00
Chevron Delo 400 11.70
Shell Rotella T 13.01
Mobile Delvac 1300 13.38
Mack Bulldog 13.96

Four Ball Wear Test, ASTM D-4172B, Jan. 1995, 40 kg pressure @ 150 C, 1800 RPM for 1 hour, all 15W-40 except Mobile Delvac synthetic 5W-40 and 1 Tri-Syn 15W-50 using different testing procedures:

Brand and Score Dia. in mm

Amsoil synthetic diesel/marine .35
Mobile Delvac 1300 .619
Chevron Delo 400 .620
Valvoline Premium Blue .625
Shell Rotella T .636
Mobile Delvac 1 synthetic 5W-40 .646

Mobile 1 Tri-Syn 15W-50:
tested at 60 kg pressure @ 150 C @ 1800 RPM for 1 hour
result: score dia. 1.474 mm

tested at 40 kg pressure @ 150 C @ 1200 RPM for 1 hour
result: score dia. .920 mm

I know that this is a mixed comparison since Amsoil synthetics are compared to dino oil for all but two oils and different test procedures for Mobile 1. However, this is the info/specs I found at the above mentioned sources (which are Amsoil associated to a degree). I will also say that the Motor Oil Bible's extensive comparison tables do not list Amsoil as the best oil in certain categories using an algorithm the author created to arrive at a ranking score based on the specs available (Red Line, NEO, Philips 76, Exxon, and Kendall topped Amsoil in several popular categories, Amsoil was tops in a couple of other categories - to show objectivity and a lack of bias toward Amsoil since the info above came from sources associated with Amsoil).

I was disappointed with Mobile 1 Tri-Syn performance in the Four Ball test (even after a reduction in pressure and RPM's) since M-B's have overhead cams/rocker arms that really put an oil to the test to prevent wear and the 21 to 1 compression ratio puts a lot of stress on the pistons & rings to the cylinder walls. I especailly liked the dino oils good specs in the Four Ball test.

The NOACK test results were inline with the background info I found about the test since dino oil should evaporate more than synthetics. Unfortunately, I could not find any NOACK spec for Mobile's synthetic oils despite the fact that this test is required by the API before an oil can be rated for that particular classification. API requires that all oils have a NOACK rating of less than 15% evaporation before that oil can be rated in a particular API service category.

Based on the above info/specs, Amsoil synthetic diesel/marine 15W-40 is the best followed by Chevron Delo 400 15W-40. The next consideration is cost. The Amsoil costs $19.95 per gallon, plus S&H cost if ordered from the Corp web site, or pay the $10 preferred customer trial offer fee good for 6 mon. (or $20 for 12 mon.) to get a 15-20% discount (info from the web site). Chevron costs $5.28 per gallon at Wal Mart. Then, one would have to figure in the longer drain period for Amsoil of twice M-B's drain period resulting in oil changes at 6,000 miles (longer, like 20,000+ miles, if you use Amsoil's oil filters and air cleaners - which are not available for my 300D or any other M-B I know of - along with oil analysis to determine if you can go longer than 6,000 miles) versus draining Chevron at 3,000 miles (using oil/air filters made by suppliers to M-B) versus Amsoil's superior NOACK and Four Ball test specs, versus the fact that even the best dino oils begin to break down much sooner than synthetic oils do - meaning that Amsoil's superior NOACK and Four Ball test specs will last longer than the best dino oils, versus the very high cost to repair/rebuild a M-B engine (pardon my thinking out loud, or rather writing out loud).

Bo, any thoughts/suggestions/comments you have would be greatly appreciated.

Tom
__________________
America: Land of the Free!

1977 300D: 300,000+ miles

American Honda: Factory Trained Technician & Honor Grad.
Formerly:
Shop Foreman;
Technical Advisor to Am. Honda;
Supervisor of Maintenance largest tree care co. in US for offices in Tex.

Last edited by tcane; 04-19-2002 at 01:26 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-19-2002, 08:35 AM
Don Stevens
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Synthetic oil for 300D

Tom,

I don't know what Bo says but it looks like your data shows what us Amsoil dealers preach. Considering all of the variables, Amsoil 15W40 is a great value, probably the best value for your car. Also, for those readers with turbo cars, the synthetic are much better for your car than regular dino oils.

For more info on how Amsoil performs againts other oils in extended drain tests go to www.maxima.org and click on the oil analysis spreadsheet in the general forums. I don't believe there are any diesel results there yet but there will be.

Don
www.lubedealer.com/dstevens
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  #30  
Old 04-19-2002, 09:28 AM
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You win either way, Amsoil or Delo

Tcan:

Thanks for the long post.

I did not include the NOACK Volatility Test and Four Ball Wear Test in my compilations because many manufacture's specs sheets do not list them. I want readers to be able to trace back to see the manufacture's numbers so I am not "making up"
numbers.

I totally agree that the NOACK Volatility Test is a much better indication of oil consumption than just the flash point and oil manufactures do test them but they are usually not included in the specs sheets. Surprisingly, the NOACK Volatility Test number correlates quite well with flash point, i.e, the higher the flash point, the lower the NOACK Volatility Test result. Maybe I should include that column then add a footnote that the numbers are from sources other than the specs sheets.

You win in either way by using either Amsoil or Delo.

Amsoil, along with Redline and a few other niche oils, does make one of the best oils today. Let's put that aside first. I may use it someday after I depleted by Mobil 1 and Delo stocks in my garage. However, there are a few things that still bother me about Amsoil.

1. Most Amsoil oils (except a few) are not API certified. You can look at this as a good thing or bad thing. The bad thing is, of course, it is not certified. The good thing is that the oils have a lot of anti-wear additives so they cannot be certified. The recent wave of the "higher mileage" oils are usually not API certified either due to the extra anti-wear additives.

2. Amsoil still cost quite a bit more compared to other oils, conventional or synthetic.

3. I can pick up some Delo at Wal-Mart (my local Wal-Mart price is $6.17/gal, so your $5.28 is an excellent price) but have to order and wait for Amsoil, in additional to the multi-level marketing and sales scheme.

4. Like Mobil, their marketing messages sometimes turn me off. Like Mobil, they often pick the wrong oils to compare with. For example, here is what's in the Mobil 1 with SuperSyn product info:

"The unique combination of high-performance fluids and proprietary additive systems enables Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ motor oils to offer advantages beyond their conventional SAE viscosity-grade counterparts. Conventional mineral oils thicken or thin dramatically with changes in temperature. "

Well, please do not compare to "conventional SAE viscosity-grade counterparts", compare to other "synthetic SAE viscosity-grade counterparts".

The recent wave of "higher mileage" oil (started by Vavoline's Max Life and followed by similar products from Quaker State, Castrol, and Penzoil) got Amsoil a bit concerned as they are excellent oils due to the extra anti-wear additives, higher viscosity (compared to the regular oils of the same viscosity) and some additional seal conditioning additives, etc. So Amsoil picked Vavoline's Max Life and compared it with an Amsoil oil (forgot which one) and , of course, the tests showed how superior Amsoil is to Max Life. Yes, Amsoil is better than Max Life, but not by much. Amsoil is a $6/qt oil and Max Life is only $2/qt. Wrong comparison.

Back to Mobil 1. Their 0W-40 and 15W-50 are good oils because they really cannot cheapen them up to pass the BMW and Mercedes oil specs sheets. These two oils do not show the kind of deterioration in specs numbers from the Tri-Synthetic to the SuperSyn as do 5W-30 and (especially) 10W-30. In Germany, there is a "Turbo Diesel 0W-40", I bet that would be a good oil to use.

If you really want to find out, invest an oil analysis using a dino 15W-40 (e.g. Delo using a hydroprocessed base stock) after 3000 then 5000 miles. You will be surprised how much longer you can continue to use the oil. But since they are cheap, we change them at short intervals. A fellow instructor (teaching heavy equipment) ran a bactch of Royal Purple 15W-40 for 26,000 miles before changing it with oil analysis every 5000 miles. (The Royal Purple is a synthetic blend oil.) Really, these CH-4 rated oils can go a long way.

Last edited by loubapache; 04-19-2002 at 09:42 AM.
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