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  #31  
Old 04-19-2002, 12:54 PM
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Bo:

Thanks for all the info and your insightful comments. Your comments about Amsoil mirror some of mine (comparison testing, price, marketing scheme, hard to get esp. on the road, etc.). You and others on this forum state that Amsoil is not API certified/rated, however, all the info I've seen show that all their oils are API certified (admitedly the API certification comes from info associated with Amsoil like the Motor Oil Bible, GoSynthetic web site, other Amsoil web sites, etc.). I just looked at a chart and 16 different Amsoil oils are API certified in many popular categories (like 0W-30, 10W-30, 15W-40, etc.). Is there a way to verify whether or not Amsoil is API certified, like accessing info from API or other sources?

I fully understand not including specs that readers cannot find on their own to maintain your credibility. I assume from your comments that you cannot get this info directly from API. Can you get this info say from ASTM or other sources? I am willing to find this info and share it with you and others - and possibly help you with your research.

I too looked at the NOACK test specs and flash point specs and saw the same correlation. However, since I have not followed/evaluated oils recently nor did any testing I was not ready to proclaim a link from one test to the other without further knowledge. Thanks for clarifying this point.

I totally agree that the price differences and ease to buy favor Chevron Delo, in addition to Chevron's good specs. However, since I do not own an inventory of oil I have a bit more flexibility to purchase what may be the best oil. Since in the long-run a more expensive oil, like Amsoil, may provide better protection for my engine and, hopefully, extend my engine's life due to significantly better overall specs this is a viable choice despite several significant concerns.

Decisions, decisions?!?

Thanks again for your insights and wading through my long post.

Tom
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  #32  
Old 04-19-2002, 01:09 PM
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Tom:

Only very few Amsoil oils carry the API certification (some synthetic blends and some newer oils) but Amsoil "thinks" all their oils pass or exceed the API certification. See Amsoil's explanation why their oils do not carry the API certification at

http://www.syntheticwarehouse.com/amsoil_api_licensing.htm

I believe API's website does list which company/oil has the certification (I seem to remember seeing it once before.)

I will look into finding some official NOACK numbers. If you can get the numbers, please let me know. It is rather dangerous to quote another (unofficial) website for numbers.

The Amsoil 15W-40 is a great oil.
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  #33  
Old 04-19-2002, 08:21 PM
Don Stevens
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More info on Amsoil

Tom/Bo,

I have been watching this thread with interest as an Amsoil dealer and I would like to make a few comments of clarification which may help you make up your mind.

First, Only the XL-7500 5W30 and XL-7500 10W30 Motor oils are API cerified. The new XL-7500 5W20 has gone through the API aplication process but I don't believe it is certified yet. The XL-7500 line was formulated with lower Phosphouros (anti wear)levels specifially to meet API specs and to entice new car owners to switch to Amsoil still feel comfortable about their warranty. Also, the 7500 mile interval was to appeal to quick lube shops who oppose long drains as they might see their customers less often. They want the 3000 mile revenue.

Second, Admitedly Amsoil is essentially only available via factory direct sale so true you are not going to be able to walk into any Walmart and buy it. However, you can buy it quite conveniently
through online secure links (www.lubedealer.com/dstevens) and in a few days it is delivered right to your door. What is more convenient than that? Second, it is cheaper in case quantities so buy a case and keep a quart in your car so you don't find yourself a quart low on the road.

Third, The Multi-level sales stategy takes a bad rap but over the years these systems have been refined and there are several top quality products that are sold through MLM. Avon, Mary Kay and Longeberger are a few. Asmoil is one of the few traditionally "mens" products sold through MLM and once your get over the mental block about MLM, the process is really quite painless. Actually, Amsoil has perfected MLM so far that you can actually buy 15W40 chaeper than you pay for Mobil-1.

Finally pricing. Amsoil does carry a stiff retail price but with sone knowledge of how the system works you can buy it quite competitively. Also, 1) you get what you pay for and 2) extended drain capability makes it much cheaper per mile than any other synthetic or Psuedo synthetic. Specifically, through the Preferred Customer plan (https://www.amsoil.com/preferred.htm) you can buy 15W40 for $3.70 per qt in case quantities. Even after freight that equals $4.38 per qt. Cheaper than Mobil-1 in most stores and at double the drain interval capability, it rivals even the dino oils.

So when you study all of the facts. Amsoil is a good deal.

Please feel free to ask any questions vie e-mail. I have oil analysis reports of results in long drain interval in my own cars and lots more practical info.

Don Stevens
Independant Amsoil Dealer

Please use 508684 as your "customer number" when ordering and thanks,

Don
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  #34  
Old 04-20-2002, 08:48 AM
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One scientist (also a VW enthusiast), did a lot of spectral and other analysis of the new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn and the Tri-Synthetic and some other oils. You can see a lot of charts on this thread

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=313674&page=4

If you read the whole thread, one person there is a Mobil distributor (you will have no problem identifying him). He will only make (wrong) general comments but never mention specifics. He still believed (or intentionally mudding the water) that the Tri-synthetic is 100% PAO based, therefore the new with SuperSyn is also 100% PAO based.

I quote one result. This is a volatility kind of test and the viscosity of the synthetic oils used in the test is 10W-30. It measures the temperature at which the oil loses 10% (by weight).

Temperature at 10% weight loss (°C):

Quaker State full synthetic 229.9
Mobil 1 SuperSyn 235.2
Valvoline SynPower 237.0
Castrol Syntec 238.6
Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 240.5

As you can see, the old Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic was better than the other three synthetic oils, now the new Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is beaten by two of the other three. This correlated very well with the 15 deg F drop in flash point of the new Mobil 1 with SuoerSyn compared to the Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic.

Interestingly, Castrol Syntec is the least volatile among the 4 oils. It seems Mobil has a lesson to lean from Castrol on the art of substituting.
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  #35  
Old 04-20-2002, 10:45 AM
Don Stevens
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Reaction to VW thread

Bo,

I actually like what Morrison says about the product. (It figures huh. From one oil dealer to another). Seriously, what he says is in laymans terms and makes sense to a concerned customer who is worried that Mobil has resorted to Group III base oils. Morrison conforms thay have not.

Without a doubt, Mobil has the technology to create the best product in the world. However, they seem to be proving here that their research and reformulation is directed at "enhancing shareholder value" by seeking cost reduction as a means for profit enhancement. There is nothing wrong with that and what I believe is the direction form the top. In fact, as a stockholder in Exxon-Mobil, I applaud it, provided their lower cost product performs as well as the previous product. From what I am reading here, the new product does perfrom adequately to the degree that none of us consumers are ever going to notice. Unless perhaps our used oil analysis shows poorer results.

Relative to what John the chemists says, He is really splitting hairs here in an area that in my opinion, really does not matter.
If you look at the group III Syntec volatility numbers, they are right there. John also states that different oils of the same folmula test differently and of course there is some margin for error in the tests. Suffice to say that all of the oils (probably Redline, Amsoil, Royal Purple too) vaporize at about 250C (about 480F). This is relavent because piston ring temperatures are in this range in a gas engine. A +/- 5 degree spread will make a difference in how much oil is lost to vaporization during a long drain interval.

I have no idea what his vibration theorys prove other than a method to determine the molecular base level of the fluid being tested.

Finally, These tests do not address the effects of various additive packages. Castrol argued effectively in their court case that a Group III base oil with superior additive can out perform a PAO with a lesser additve package. Leading one to conclude a PAO with a superior additive package (ie Amsoil) will out perform both.

This all boils down to my original statements that the only thing that really matters is how a certain oil perfroms in YOUR car. The only way to detrmine this is through used oil analysis. YOUR car and YOUR driving conditions are THE most important variables in how any oil is going to protect your investment. So the bottom line is if you want to know what is best for you, I suggest you sample the oil you have in the car now. Try the other brands yourself (you are going to buy someone's oil anyway) and sample them at the same intervals and see what the results say. I suggest a 5000 mile interval and suggest you try Amsoil for a double length drain interval. Specifically test it at 5000 miles. Change the filter, go 5000 more (provided the original test results are good) and test it again. My real world experience suggest your result will show Amsoil better after 10000 miles than petro oil when new.

Oil Analysis link

http://www.amsoil.com/products/g.html


Don
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  #36  
Old 04-20-2002, 11:01 AM
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<<
I actually like what Morrison says about the product. (It figures huh. From one oil dealer to another). Seriously, what he says is in laymans terms and makes sense to a concerned customer who is worried that Mobil has resorted to Group III base oils. Morrison conforms thay have not.
>>
He cannot confirm anything, he re-tells what he was told. He refers to Mobil's specs sheets (I quote below) as the basis to concluded Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is 100% PAO based.

"These include polyalphaolefins (PAOs) and other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids which make up the Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ formula. "

If SuperSyn and PAO has such a low pour point, why does the Mobil 1 with SuperSyn 10W-30 have one of the highest pour points in the synthetic group of the same viscosity?

10W-30

Brand (Pour Point in deg F)

Havoline Synthetic (-60)
Mobil 1 w/Supersyn (-49)
Penzoil Synthetic (-62)

One has to concluded that, from the results above and from "other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids" clearly stated in Mobil's specs sheet, that there is a lot more than just PAO in its base stocks.

The spectral analysis (or vibrational modes) can accurately determine what's in the base stock as different base stocks (or different substance, for that matter) have their unique vibrational modes (peaks or valleys in spectra). This is like the finger prints of a person (unique to a person). He determined there are peaks that are characteristic to those found in mineral oils.

True to what you said, Don. An oil manufacture will first show some test results to prove how their oils are superior to others. But when other oils show better results on the same tests, test results are either irrelevant or do not matter any more. The manufacture will switch to another talk, it is the total performance of the oil. Total performance of the oil cannot be tested or proven in real world easily and we all know that. There are just no INDEPENDENT and SUBJECTIVE tests, that are not sponsored by the oil manufactures, on two identical cars, driven 100 - 200 kmi under similar conditions, on two different oils, and then the cars' engines are analyzed. The tests done by Consumer Reports are probably the closest to subjective and independent. That result basically says that all oils perform about the same and synthetic oil only has advantages under extreme conditions (which are rare). That is what total performance is, i.e., it really does not matter what oil you use, as long as you change it.

Remember the old Mobil 1 TV ads? Mobil 1 pours at frigid cold better than other oils? Now, I bet Mobil is not going to show this ad. If they do, they would have to pick some dino oils to compare, not the Havoline or Panzzoil synthetic.

As a mater of fact, if I were a Havoline or Penzoil marketing person, I would use Mobil's own words to show some TV ads. First show the old Mobil ad, then say the temp is at -55 deg C. Mobil 1 w/SupoerSyn 10W-30 is a gel and Havoline or Penzoil can still pour!

Last edited by loubapache; 04-20-2002 at 11:31 AM.
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  #37  
Old 04-20-2002, 05:58 PM
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This "cost" thing bewilders me! Owners that spend $60/hr on a mechanic (oops, technician), $300 on a tire and $20 for a car wash still hesitate to pay for the BEST motor oil. What gives?

FWIW, I've been using Amsoil for several years because they have the best specs, not the best advertising.
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  #38  
Old 04-21-2002, 10:31 PM
Don Stevens
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Bo,

I hear what you are saying. I like the fact that Mobil is screwing around with ther formula it is more amunition for us Asmoil faithful. Honestly though, I still believe comparison of pour points an viscosity indexes is just splitting hairs.

I also agree with you that Consumer Reports is going to be a lot more objective than the oil companies. I do remember their report that most all petro oils are the same and that synthetic is only useful under extereme conditions. I agree with the frst part of their conclusion but not all with the second. If I recall, there was only one or two comments about synthetics and the way it was presented lead me to believe that they did no research on synthetics at all.

I go back to my earlier comment, If you want the best for your car, try a few different oils and have the used oils analyzed.

Dean, I agree with you 100%.....As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you do the math, Amsoil at 7500 mile intervals is a better value and much better for your car than petro oil at 3000 miles. It is a no brainer.

Don
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  #39  
Old 04-26-2002, 12:52 PM
GeorgeSTLECLS
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It is interesting to note that Mercedes/AMG put the "new" Mobil 1 with "supersyn" formulation in each and every AMG that leaves the factory...
But then again I only got that from 'what I am told'... :-)
Bo, I do not work for Mobil oil and certainly do not derive any renumeration for someone buying Mobil 1 at their local Wal Mart. The views I express are those of a lubrication professional sharing information I have gathered both from a practical use application or at times good 'insider'information.
I have shared "real" data relative to the Mobil 1 MSDS sheets which have described Mobil 1 with SuperSyn as being PAO based. Since my post on the VW site there have been several other posts confirming what I shared in that the current Mobil 1 formulation contains no Group II or Group III and was still predominantly PAO based and a pure 'synthetic' oil in the true (non Castrol) definition..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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  #40  
Old 04-26-2002, 01:42 PM
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<<
It is interesting to note that Mercedes/AMG put the "new" Mobil 1 with "supersyn" formulation in each and every AMG that leaves the factory...
>>

They only use Mobil 1 0W-40 and 0W-40 Turbo Diesel, not the 5W-30 and 10W-30. 0W-40 meets the Mercedes 229.1 and 229.3 sheets (15W-50 meets only 229.1) but the 5W-30 and 10W-30 do not meet any of these sheets. As a matter of fact, the MB oil approval list says these oils (along with 0W-30) are not recommended in MB cars.

I have stated ealier that the Mobil 1 0W-40 and 15W-50 are good oils (their specs numbers did not deteriate in this new formulation) but the 5W-30 and, especially, 10W-30 deteriated a lot in specs (higher pour and lower flash points).

BTW, the 0W-40 is a marketing game. It really shold be called like a 12W-40 (as it is thicker than Mobil 1 10W-30 at 40 deg C.

<<
Bo, I do not work for Mobil oil and certainly do not derive any renumeration for someone buying Mobil 1 at their local Wal Mart. The views I express are those of a lubrication professional sharing information I have gathered both from a practical use application or at times good 'insider'information.
>>

Do you operate a business that mail-orders Mobil oils? What is the nature of your business in relation to Mobil? It is not our business, of course, but it would increase your credibility if you have no involvement in Mobil.

For me, I have been a Mobil 1 user for years but the recent two formulations, along with vague and conflicting marketing information, are increasingly upsetting me.

<<
I have shared "real" data relative to the Mobil 1 MSDS sheets which have described Mobil 1 with SuperSyn as being PAO based.
>>

Yes, it is PAO based. But that does not mean 100% of its base stock is PAO (as you stated in other boards). I think a "lubrication professional" should know the difference there. Since you have "insider" infomation from Mobil, WHAT IS THE PAO PERCENTAGE IN THE BASE STOCK, 10%, 20%, or 30%?

Amsoil says 100% of its base stock is PAO. Can Mobil say the same???

If you look at the Chevron MSDS at
http://library.cbest.chevron.com/lubes/chevmsdsv9.nsf/f2f12b5992bba20488256b4c0074a415/3cbf3fa62b8a2e518825656c0004d470?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,delo
it lists the components in percentages. Why cannot Mobil be that straight telling us what is exactly in its oil?

We know it is PAO "based". 10% of PAO in base stock is PAO based, do you agree?

I do not know how many times I have to quote Mobil's own words to prove to you that Mobil 1 with Supersyn IS NOT 100% PAO. Here it goes one more time:

"These include polyalphaolefins (PAOs) and other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids which make up the Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ formula. "

It is PAO and "other ExxonMobil® engineered fluids", not just PAO.

Last edited by loubapache; 04-26-2002 at 03:50 PM.
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  #41  
Old 04-26-2002, 05:37 PM
GeorgeSTLECLS
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Mobil 1 has *never* been 100% PAO based. My Monday morning mis-statement was just that and I corrected it in the next post. This was in response to the accusation that Mobil 1 had gone the route of Castrol/Group III. Moreover, my intent was that the formulation was essentially PAO, same as always, and a "real" synthetic. The "original" Mobil 1 formulation was approximately 90% PAO, 8% ESTER and 2% additive carrier group 1 mineral. In talking with one of the product developers, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn is still predominantly PAO, however the ester is no longer used, was removed with the Tri-syn reformulation and was replaced by non-ester chemistry which equals or betters the ester performance.
Regarding working for AV Lubricants. Obviously I have made no effort to hide that relationship. However, Mobil 1 is NOT sold at that site so I do not see any conflict. I am simply sharing information that I glean from good sources, such as the above mentioned developmental engineer. I could/would use any oil but use Mobil 1, Delvac 1 because I feel they are best. The views I express are, again, from my personal, professional experience as a lube engineer and not due to any renumeration.

I am wondering what your reaction would be if a Mobil 1 development engineer offered information on this site; i.e. that his/her information should not be considered, should not be believed due to his/her bias?? It would seem you are at a point where there is absolutely nothing anyone can say or present that can convince you that Mobil 1 with Supersyn is operationally superior to previous Mobil 1 formulations.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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  #42  
Old 04-26-2002, 08:06 PM
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<<
I am wondering what your reaction would be if a Mobil 1 development engineer offered information on this site; i.e. that his/her information should not be considered, should not be believed due to his/her bias?? It would seem you are at a point where there is absolutely nothing anyone can say or present that can convince you that Mobil 1 with Supersyn is operationally superior to previous Mobil 1 formulations.
>>

As you said, if a Mobil 1 development engineer offers official information that Mobil 1 with SuperSyn has 90% PAO, I will consider it as a 100% synthetic and it will remove all the doubts in my mind as why all of a sudden the pour point increased and flash point decreased. I will then continue to use Mobil 1 with SuperSyn. The engineer needs to be on the record to say that (not just mention it by passing). Once he/she is on the record, others may want to confirm or contradict him/her in future tests. Or better yet, state that information (percentage of PAO) on Mobil's Website, product information, and MSDS. Why not?

Could you help this community and many other auto sites by facilitating an officail statement from Mobil that it has 90% PAO. Thanks in advance.

You are right that your business does not offer Mobil 1 oils at this point but you offer Mobil Delvac 1. I have seen your posts before that Delvac 1 is superior in gasoline engines as well.

To me, most oils only have 75 - 80% of the total oil in base stock and the rest 20 - 25% is in additives so Mobil 1 cannot have 90% PAO, as you stated. It was probably 90% of the 75 - 80% of the base stock before the Tri-Synthetic formulation.

I trust all official information from oil companies. All the specs numbers I have been quoting about Mobil 1 are directly from Mobil's Website.

On that day when Mobil put Tri-Synthetic under "Semi-Synthetic" on its Website, I noted that (others saw that too). But then Mobil pulled that a few days later. As you can see, I only use the oil company's own numbers and words. If PAO has such a low pour point, why all of a sudden the pour point increased? Less PAO? If less PAO, then what is replacing PAO? That is where I come from? Do you feel it is a bit odd that a 15W-50 oil and a 10W-30 oil have the same pour point? The 0W-40 and 15W-50 have to pass the tough Mercedes and BMW specs while the 5W-30 and 10W-30 do not but Mobil got its profits in the 5W-30 and 10W-30 viscosities, at least in the US.

Last edited by loubapache; 04-26-2002 at 08:24 PM.
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  #43  
Old 04-27-2002, 11:28 AM
pfphipps
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I do not want to get into "which is best" but if anyone wants Mobil 1 "Tri-Synthetic Formula", I just bought some at Walmart for $15.88 for five quarts. It is SJ rated and is marked "Fully Synthetic Motor Oil".

That is $3.18 a quart.
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  #44  
Old 05-06-2002, 12:27 PM
Human Spirit
 
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5W-30 CH-4 vs. 5W-40 CH-4

Bo (in particular) and all others in general -

I respect the research and knowledge you all shared in this thread re: Mobil, spec. inconsistencies, etc. I have been a long time user of Rotella-T 15W-40 in my MB diesels and Mobil 1 in my gassers. My concern is over which synthetic diesel oil to use in a newly aquired VW TDI diesel which VW lists 5W-40 (dino or synthetic) as the preferred .

The no-brainer would be to use Delvac 1. However, I'm ready to throw in the towel on Mobil due to the points outlined in this thread and the difficulity I have finding a convenient source of supply in Mpls./St. Paul, Minnesota area.

I am ready to switch to Amsoil; they seem to be a consistent, no nonsense supplier that imparts a high level of integrity to the products they manufacture. I can order on-line and have product shipped to my door or stop in at my local jobber who maintains inventory in Mpls. I can also do 'will-call' pick ups at Amsoil's home base when I am in the Duluth/Superior area. The Amsoil recommended product for the TDI is their Series 3000, 5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel oil.

Question: Should I have any concern about the fact the best Amsoil product for the TDI is available only as a 5W-30??

The Amsoil tech service people say it is not an issue and, in fact, their 3000 Series HDD oil compares favorably with other brands 5W-40. A check of the Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 product specs. seems to bear this out. The only difference I detect is a slightly lower viscosity at 100 C. Otherwise, the Amsoil product seems to spec out very favorably to Delvac 1 in most tests and superior to Delvac 1 in pour point (a plus in Minnesota).
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  #45  
Old 05-06-2002, 12:44 PM
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Wayne:

The Amsoil 3000 Series HDD 5W-30 is an excellent oil (expensive though).

I would not worry about the 5W-30 for two reasons (many VW TDIers do use this oil) but that is just my view.

1. Amsoil's 5W-30 is actually thicker than many other synthetic 5W-30 at 100 deg C. Its kinematic viscosity at 100 deg C is 11.4 cSt compared to the 9.7 cSt of Mobil 1 5W-30, for example.

2. Your climate, like mine, is cool (or cold) enough to use this 5W-30.

The API guide for minimum viscosity is 9.3 cSt for a 30 weight and 12.5 cSt for a 40 weight, at 100 deg C. Amsoil's number is right between these two.
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