New R-134 R-12 Freon replacement??
 

Just talked to a company selling a product called Glacier Gold Refrigerant. I'm a little leary - sounds too good to be true. They say it is compatible with R-12 and R-134 so can be used to top off both systems. It can replace both refrigerants using 6 oz of their's to replace 16 oz. of R134 or 18 oz of R-12. They say it is compatible with ALL oils. They claim it is colder than R-12 and the compressor works 30-40% less as their product is easier to compress - resulting in more gas mileage and longer life for compressors. It's apparently hygroscopic so small amounts of moisture in the system will be absorbed so it won't damage compressors or components - no need to draw a deep vacuum - 5 inches as opposed to 29 (charging into a deep vacuum will result in an overcharge). Best of all it is only $10 a 6 oz can or is available in 30 lb cylinders. It is totally enviromentally friendly and requires no license in USA or Canada to use. Their website (not very good) is http://glacier-gold-refrigerants.com/ with a link to their parent company.
HAVE I DIED AND GONE TO A/C HEAVEN - OR IS THIS A SCAM???
They say they have been selling it for over 3 years now. I would appreciate some input. If true it sounds like a godsend for DIY.
Thanks
Maurice:confused: :confused:

Maurice:

Personally, I'd be leary.

I purchased some "Freeze 12" about a yr. ago thinking that I was purchasing an R-12 replacement. Later on I stumbled across some info about it and learned it was 80% R-134 and 20% R-something-or-another...forget what it was.

You can buy R-134 for half of what these guys want for this Glacier product. It would be interesting to know what the content of it was before purchasing?

how did the freeze 12 work??

I didn't use it in my R-12 system because it was 80% R-134. Somehow it made no sense to put what amounted to R-134 refrigerant in an R-12 system.

I'll likely use it down the road on one of my daily drivers when the compressor goes out on it.
I think for now, I'll continue to use R-12 in my Benz. I have a 609 certification, so I can buy it.
I've found that garages charges 3 to 4 times more for R-12 than they pay for it. That's why I have a 609 certification.

Based on the very light weight of this stuff, I'd guess it is hydrocarbon based. A propane/isobutane blend is the most common formulation, but other hydrocarbons in various ratios can be used. If it is in fact hydrocarbon based, it will be illegal in the U.S.

There used to be lots of discussion of alternative refrigerants, and even many folks rolling their own out of propane & camping gas, over at http://www.aircondition.com I think the bulletin board is closed, but the archived discussions are still available. Take a look at alt.ref if you're interested in this stuff.

According to their website, glacier Gold is distributed from Canada. It is not on the latest EPA approved refrigerant list. It is hydrocarbon based, according to the Glacier Gold website. The EPA specifically prohibits hydrocarbon refrigerants for automotive use. (Obviously EPA rules only apply to USA).

"It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants as CFC or HCFC substitutes in motor vehicle air conditioning."

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/ref.html#q06

A long thread on r/12 and r134a some time back discussed specific detailed problems with hydrocarbon based refrigerants - it should be in the archives for those interested in searching further.

R12 substitutes
 

All those products that claim to be a safe legal substitute for R12 are bogus. They all contain mostly propane ( which by the way makes for an excellent refridgerent). However it has never been approved by the EPA for automotive use. It is acceptable to a very limited extent in some industrial applications.

These products are highly flamable , dangerous, and will cause major damage to your automotive AC system over a period of time.

Whenever anyone tries to sell me any of this garbage I refer them to the following site.

http://www.epa.gov/docs/ozone/title6/snap/snap.html

BILL

moedep,

You hit on the phrase that I think you should focus on. If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

These unapproved substitutes are bad for your system and worst of all are explosive. If you ever have a compressor fail, and make a spark, you and your car will be an instant car bomb.

For the sake of you and your family I urge you not to use this refrigerant.

I share your frustration regarding the availability and price of R12. I have a few pounds of it left and when it's gone, it will be gone.

I have already converted some of my cars to r134. I worry most about my 124 car. I am saving the R12 for it. It appears that now that warm weather is approaching, the 124 a/c system will make one more year.

You can either use R12 at it's exhorbitant cost, or change over to 134 which is not too tough and will work well as long as you don't live in a Houston type climate.

Best of luck,

While I would never advocate breaking the law or thinking that the EPA is anything other than the best environmental protection agency in the world, it is worth noting two facts. I learned on a boat refrigeration board that many household refrigerators in Europe use propane as a refrigerant. On that same board, a military person posted in the Persian Gulf reported that all the small fishing boats used GM automotive compressors and propane as a refrigerant to ice down their fish. And of course, Canadians would have no good ideas on what refrigerants to use since they live in igloos anyway!

I'm of the mind that any flammability risks from hydrocarbon refrigerants aren't worth worrying about. I'll point out there is no oxygen at all inside a properly serviced a/c system - hence no possibility of an explosion. If the system suddenly dumps its charge then yes. But lets consider that your car is already carrying 150lbs or more of fuel. In a modern gasoline car this fuel is pressurized to 35PSI or more at the tank and pumped to the front of the car. The engine is also filled with flammable engine oil, the brake system with flammable fluid, and if you drive an MB with self leveling...well, you get the idea.

That said, I'm not using them. They are illegal. My stash of R-12 is gone. Since my 124 wagon upchucked its compressor last fall, I've decided to try R-406a. It supposedly cools better than R-12 - a good thing if you're driving a 124 wagon in Texas. Will let you know how it goes after I get around to charging the system, and after if heats up a bit down here....

If you look at the EPA site, you will find that flammability is only ONE of the things EPA looks at in approving a refrigerant. Also, different refrigerants are approved for different purposes (marine, commercial chillers, etc.). Something not approved for one use is sometimes on a different approved list, as the hazards/pollution index/accident probability factors add up differently for different applications.

Also, nobody claims the EPA as the final authority on environmental issues (Some of their radiation regulations, for example, are ludicrous - coal burning power plants pump more long half life alpha and gamma radioactivity out their stacks than an n plant collects for burial. The n plant can't release anything, the coal plant is exempt! 50% of US power comes from coal, 17% from N plants. So which one is the environmental radiation source?) However, on refrigerants the EPA states their rulings are made solely on the basis of data PROVIDED BY THE MANUFACTURER, not by their own testing. The flammability, Hydrocarbon loss rates through non-barrier hoses designed for r12 only, the compressor life span effects, etc. are all from the refrigerant manufacturer, and therefore probably present a 'best case' estimate.

Finally, there is a large difference in flammability hazard between liguid gasoline and a hydrocarbon vapor under high pressure. Gasoline must be vaporized and mixed with air to explode, Hollywood notwithstanding. That vaporization must fall within a relatively narrow fuel/air ratio, otherwise it will be too lean or rich to explode. That vaporization occurs inside a nice safe metal cylinder head. Running tubing and connectors with highly pressurized hydrocarbons which may vaporize under the engine compartment is a different risk factor than relatively low pressure fuel lines from the fuel pump. A low pressure spray is less likely to produce an explosive air/fuel mixture than a high pressure refrigerant leak, which may have a lower flashpoint, greater volatility, and wider ignition temperature and fuel/air range than gasoline, as well as a different 'bang/cc' factor - it may have much more punch than gasoline! I have seen less than 1cc of toluene liquid produce a vapor mix in a fume hood accidently ignite from static electricity, despite safety use of safety cans and grounding straps. That 1 cc shattered the safety glass of the chemical fume hood sash, split the fume hood ducting, and was heard throughout the building.

Keep cool, but think safe.

Well Guys, all of you have a snap shot of the refrigerant issue correct. My Dad and I just did the a/c system in my 300SDL:
-Nippo compressor
-expansion valve
-drier
-both drier switches
-Freeze 12 refrigerant.
I'll tell you from first hand experience, this stuff blows better than any R134a vehicle that has retrofitted from R12. It's the best of both worlds. As long as you have esther oil in your compressor and system, you can use this stuff. I used 3-12 oz. cans for my system.
Compared to R-12, my money's on this Freeze 12 stuff. I paid around $8.00 with tax for a can.

FREEZE 12
 

JAY123
Congratulations: You just filled your AC system with propane.You now have about 12 months of use left on your AC system under normal conditions that is of course unless you get into an accident and blow up in the meantime.

I wish the federal Gov. would make an effort to arrest and penalize the vendors who supply this illegal and dangerous substance.

Bill

Please get your facts straight before posting misinformation. Freeze-12 is *not* a hyrdocarbon. It is about 80% R-134a. I don't know the composition of the remaining 20%, it is a refrigerant which is miscible w/ mineral oil. This is why Freeze-12 can be used in an R-12 system without changing to PAG or ester oil.

JCYUHN:

OK , but what is in that other 20%, and do you think its a smart idea to put at risk $1000.00 to $2000.00 of AC components to save 100.00 in refridgerent?