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  #1  
Old 11-16-2014, 11:52 AM
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THE WATER PUMP MYSTERY


The first person who solves this mystery gets my bottle of Tums. Because*I know some where down the line*I will have to return the favor and the tablets will have to do until I can resolve your issue. Ok here we go.

I have a very serious situation with my water pump RIGHT NOW! I'll spare you some steps for the sake of time .radiator out...fan off.. loosened the 2 belts ..pulleys off and old water pumps off (not *soooo fast.) This is where it gets interesting. I was doing this job at 3am and I had one more screw to undo. That screw was the one at the very bottom. I don't know what came over me but*I thought to myself maybe if I turn the engine one turn ( like you do when you adjust your valves)*that will get that screw to come to the top. DUH... what was I thinking.

First the pulley was not on the*water pump nor were the belts. Second of all, the*WHOLE*water pump doesn't turn (BOY was it getting late for me.) At any rate, I got the screw out and replaced the aftermarket (M183 water pump) with a M-B water pump.

Everything was going A O K. All I had to do now is put the pulley back on....Then NO GOOD started to happen. When I took the pulley off the first time I just pulled it straight*off. When I went to*place *it back on, I had to tilt it slightly to put it on the hub. Then that's when I noticed the PULLEY HAD DROPPED AND HAD MOVED FURTHER BACK TOWARDS THE BLOCK.

There was no way I could put the two belts back on, let alone put the fan on. I called the M-B parts dept. they swear they sent the right part for the car. However, they did some digging and they did tell me the previous owners of this car had switched the engine. **Engine in car now; 61795212015127.*Engine taken out: 61795212002110.

M-B parts dept. states this has nothing to do with the problem either.... THIS IS GETTING BAD. No body can tell me what went wrong; how to fix this easy routine water pump job; its approaching winter (car is outside; no way to get it into the garage.)

So Finally this is were it gets UGLY: The next day I go back outside and place a couple of bolts into the old water pump to mount it and* NOW the pulley still *doesn't fit correctly* ^^^^#$#%$$%$.* WHAT? If you don't' believe me see for yourself. And those Tums are still waiting for anybody who can solve this mystery.

Oh. one more thing.* After looking at the car's*water pump area at least 123 times, I saw that the*water pump housing* had gouges inside of it. But the old water pump itself*did not show*any signs of metal shaving or rubbing metal against metal.*

So now I need anyone - everyone -to put your heads together and come up with a solution to my water pump problem...THANK You

Attached Thumbnails
THE WATER PUMP MYSTERY-img_20141111_112706%5B1%5D.jpg   THE WATER PUMP MYSTERY-img_20141111_112626_1%5B1%5D.jpg  

Last edited by thechozin_1; 11-16-2014 at 12:17 PM. Reason: pics did not post to thread
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2014, 12:05 PM
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To summarize, with the old pump the pulley fits fine, with the new pump it doesn't?
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2014, 12:33 PM
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I'm trying to understand what the heck is going on too.

It sounds like the new pump bolts up to the engine but the pulley does not fit - and it does not line up with the existing "lines" in which the belts have to run.

First step =>

Compare the "heights" of the water pumps - does the old one stick out further from the block?

There are different pulley options out there - you could be suffering from a bit of a swap around
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  #4  
Old 11-16-2014, 12:39 PM
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Those water pumps are supplied in two different lengths; as Stretch advises, put the two side by side.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2014, 02:53 PM
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water pump

YES and NO....when I First took the aftermarket wp off(everthing is starting to get garbbled in brain now) I remember just being able to pull the pulley towards me with out a problem. When I put M-B wp on the pulley was in wrong position. I have had some people tell me the pulleys in the right position.(I think they have me convinced 2+2=6) At any rate when I tried to put the old /aftermarket wp back on with a couple of bolts...I quickly realized the pulley was still in the same (WRONG) place. I have to tilt the pulley to get it on shaft. Everything(Pulley,belts) looks likes its sitting on top of each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hirnbeiss View Post
To summarize, with the old pump the pulley fits fine, with the new pump it doesn't?
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2014, 03:10 PM
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For the Love of Stretch

Been a great "Fan" yours S ....love your restores( no pun intended) because the fan won't fit onto the pulley.LOL I don't know the history of this car. That's why I have been changing belts and hoses, liquids etc..M-B classic told me that my 300td had an engine swap...But that should not make a difference. The aftermarket pump that was on the car should not make a difference.I checked wp and have pics if you want to see they are the same length,but how doe the pulley DROP DOWN? I've recently been told by someone that my engine is a mid 80's engine. And my engine has 2 types of water pumps. But this still does not count for the fact that I tried to put the old wp back on and the pulley didn't fit in the proper place. Explain That? DO YOU THINK ME Turning THE ENGINE over 1 turn OR HAVING THE CAR ON JACKS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch View Post
I'm trying to understand what the heck is going on too.

It sounds like the new pump bolts up to the engine but the pulley does not fit - and it does not line up with the existing "lines" in which the belts have to run.

First step =>

Compare the "heights" of the water pumps - does the old one stick out further from the block?

There are different pulley options out there - you could be suffering from a bit of a swap around
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  #7  
Old 11-16-2014, 04:50 PM
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The problem is not logical at all.
Is there possibly an axial play and as you mount the old pump pushes the shaft outward?
It seems there is about an 1/8" clearance missing, too far out, I could be wrong with the distance.
Are the mounting flanges identical in thickness?
Was the new pump not turning or the old one?
Is the pump housing (forgive me for asking) in the correct position?
Is the pump perpenticular to the motor block?
Since the problem now also exists with the old pump, the lenght may be correct.
Now, this is far fetched, is there a shim inside the pulley?
I think there is some weird seating problem, if all dimensions are the same.
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Last edited by oldtrucker; 11-16-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-16-2014, 05:20 PM
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I would also check to see if someone has placed a shim (washer) on the inside of the pulley.
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  #9  
Old 11-16-2014, 06:13 PM
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tc_1:

If the picture of the pump which you have posted is of the new pump, it would appear that the drive flange (where the pulleys and fan are attached) is unusually thick. A short pump body assembled with a long shaft and a thick flange would be the same length as a long body pump with a thin flange. The overall length from mounting flange to pulley flange is the critical dimension; it should be the same for both the old pump and the new.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:08 AM
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(Sorry but I'm not 100% sure what exactly is going on with this thread)

But I think the problem is that it is as though the distance between centre of the water pump pulley and the centre of the crankshaft pulley is not big enough.

Please correct me if I have got this wrong.

If I'm right in thinking that the problem is as I have said then I would be looking at the crank pulley as well. It is not unknown for a crank pulley to fall off the front of an OM617...

I can measure the distance between the centres of these pulleys if necessary

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Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #11  
Old 11-19-2014, 10:36 AM
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I may be pointing out the obvious here, but here goes.
I recently changed out a water pump on an M104 and I noticed that the puleys for the water pump and the power steering pumps were identical, except....
They are mounted in the reverse direction.
What I mean is that the pulleys have an offset between the flange face and the grooved outer ring. They can be mounted with the offset either toward the engine or toward the radiator. Have you tried reversing the pulley ?
Another interesting finding was that the bolts holding the pulleys to the pumps had 1/2" heads (a 13 mm wrench was too big) and were painted red.
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  #12  
Old 11-19-2014, 11:32 AM
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THE WATER PUMP MYSTERY

With home brew swap I would guess it's the wrong pulley. They prob had a pile of pumps and pulleys in the garage and found one that worked.

Comparing the two pumps as stated will verify that. Checking your pulley against another car will verify the other.

Let us know what happened. I'm curious. Lol.
It's amazing the stuff you can come across. I spent forever trying to figure out my cables for my heater control valve, only to figure out its the wrong valve.

Wil those differences in engine numbers really effect the pump/pulley? I only ever look at the first 6. But I'm new.


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  #13  
Old 11-19-2014, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thechozin_1 View Post
The next day I go back outside and place a couple of bolts into the old water pump to mount it and* NOW the pulley still *doesn't fit correctly*
So the old one doesn't fit anymore either?
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  #14  
Old 11-20-2014, 04:31 PM
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new pump defective

The new pump may be defective. They may not have pressed the part the pulley bolts to far enough on to the water pump shaft
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  #15  
Old 11-23-2014, 08:16 PM
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Water Pump Gone Wild

I had to take a time out. I got flustered,cold temp came, so I held the MB CD in my hand and I just read it; turned it over and read the grooves & more cold temp. came. I can't seem to work on the 1981 300TD(you get infinite TO when working on W123 300TD by the way) Now, the clock is TICKING because of the weather. It's been 20deg so when Ohio's heat wave of 35deg came the other day I had to get back to work on the car. NO I don't have a garage and YES I just might loose some fingers (temps going back down to 20's) if I cant get this problem solved. So since we last talked I had a mechanic stop by and he was able to dry fit (without the screws and gasket etc) the MB wp on( he had a little bit of a challenge getting it on) and the pulley fit perfect. Well not exactly.You see to me it looked like the pulley was to, to, close to the bottom of the bottom pulley. But I dismissed this notion because I hadn't put the screws,gasket,sealant on yet. But clearly he had done something I had not done. Or had he? I was skeptical,After all, If you recall I even tried putting the old wp back on & it didn't fit.. Hmmm. At any rate I was glad of a different result. So lets get the V-Belts changed.Hold On! HUDDLE UP TEAM! This is a real GAME CHANGER. I know you are not going to believe this one. 1) as unluck would have it I picked up the fan shroud and it had a gaping slit at the bottom caused by the metal fan. 2)V-belt A (alternator & wp)has 2 belts .The belt closes to the wp looked like a babies bottom in the inside as well as the outside[see pic] All the other belts had rigid inside of the belt. 3)Lucas and the "home brew swap" may be on to something. MB has told me the engine has been replaced. So I don't know if A)the original pulley is being used on a used engine or B) the used engine could be using its own pulley and it just doesn't match up w/ the engines originals pulleys. C) or is the wrong water pump housing on the engine. If so How can I tell?D) Is the engine mounted properly? How can I tell that? I would like to start to eliminate problems and start coming up with solution.
**Tom Hanson and his CA dream team have sent me the RIGHT parts, SEVERAL times, for my car R. Woody(parts dept) sends parts out so fast I remember I wanted to sneeze & before I could reach for my tissue my car part was delivered. I'm 99.9% Woody sent me the right wp.
**There is only one wp for this engine, It goes on only one way.
***Is it possible you guys can post some of your pics of your pulley and water pump configurations...it would really help a lot.
These are not rhetorical question either I need answers very quickly.. IS THIS A W/P ISSUE? Or a w/p issue & another can of worms
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