Tick, tick fixed tnx to Donnie!
 

Developed a ticking noise about a month ago and also noticed that my oil pressure had dropped abit. But the lowered oil pressure did not alert me to anything that would associate with the ticking noise. It should have but tnx to Donnie, it's now fixed!

Donnie has alerted me and others about the infamous oil tubes used in the 119 engine. Also on the CD-ROM, there's a MB TSB (issued in '95) about these oil tubes.

What goes wrong?? Check this picture of an oil tube removed from my engine this morning. Actually there were two with the ends blown out!! One on cyclinder #2 and the other on #3. How about that!!

http://pages.prodigy.net/jforgione/MVC-591F.JPG

The oil pressure is back to normal (stays around '2' bar) at idle and NO MORE TICK!

Tnx DONNIE!

Howdy Jim,

I have a question for ya. Where exactly are these little critters positioned??? I can't seem to locate them in any reference material I have. Thanks.

They are #65 on the pic.

OK, I am going to go and get a eye check-up now as I can't see *****. Are there many special tools needed to do this R/R, looks like you might only need the tubes and a set of valve cover gaskets?

Thanks Donnie.

Jim,
Where on the CD is that TSB? I looked and couldn't find it. I'm pretty sure I have an updated CD since it has other '95 modifications.

THanks,
Steve

Great pictures Jim.

Here is the text of the bulletin:

Don't know how to put two images on one file:

No more tick!
 

Roas: Stevebfl's latest pic shows them clearly; It's #65 in the first picture.

400E: On the ALL-DATA CD, the TSB is located after clicking 'ENGINE'. A sub menu called 'TSB' come ups. There's three (3) items on my CD. If you want to see what it says, click below ('WWW' house) to go to my web page, then select Menu #18.

Stevebfl: Tnx for the clarification.

R & R oil tubes
 

Roas, I'm sure you figured it out already but if not here's how to remove them using Steve's annotated figure.

http://pages.prodigy.net/jforgione/119lifter.jpg

To change a pair of oil tubes (in blue), loosen and remove the camshaft brackets so as to slip the 'tits' (red arrows) on the oil tubes under the camshaft brackets. Do ONE-PAIR-AT-A-TIME since the camshafts are under tension. Then replace the bracket and tighten before moving on to the next pair. That's the way I did it.

Parts:
1) Buy a valve cover kit because you will want to change the gasket and the spark plug seals.
2) Will probably need a 'breather' tube assy. Mine was like the petrified forest!!
3) Will probably need the chain tensioner clamp. If it is as brittle as mine was, it will break when trying to remove it.

That should do it.

The "ticking" we are talking about, is it a loud, medium, or quiet sound at cold start-up?
I'm wondering if this is one of those maintenance items that should be added to the "Must Do", "Should Eventually Do", or "Don't do until it Happens" list.

Not sure that you would want to do this as a scheduled maintenance item.

Having gone through this, I now know what to do if the oil pressure drops/changes suddenly! Didn't have a clue before but now it would signal removal of the valve cover(s) to immediately fix.

But the bad part is, that you may not get a tick-tick sound right after the oil pressure changes. Thinking back, the oil pressure changed, then about 2 - 3 weeks later, the ticking started.

If you don't wait, you would have to pull both valve covers in the worst case to find the 'culprit'. It only takes ONE open oil tube to drop the oil pressure but without the tick-tick, it's a crap shoot as to which side it's on.

Re 'SOUND': Mine was a nice clean tick, with a 'clean' note. Not a 'smashing' sound but a more clean tick! Anyone can hear it from the outside although it's almost impossilbe to hear in the car with the windows up. Hope that answers your question.

Thanks, Jim and Steve!
Good info to have . . .

Are the new parts updated/different part number?

Thanks for sharing. What kind of oil do you run, Jim? Are you the original owner?

Awesome harness, BTW-my car's not been over 100, and I beat it BAD on the track:) :) :)

The oil tube part number is the same as it is in the photo: 119 180 03 66. That's the PN that was in my car although the TSB says its 119 180 02 66.

Some discussion: Why the hell isn't that part just a single molded tube. What's with the plug in the end??? As a design engineer for 41 years, that design is just waiting to fail!!! Putting in an end cap that can blow out!

Since Mercedes issued a TSB in 1995, that means that this part is (and has been) a problem! So why haven't MB improved it?? Enough of that soapbox.

Bought the car three (3) years ago, and have had no major problems with it. I use 20-50 Valvoline every 3K miles.

Yes Jim and Steve, thanks for sharing!

There are many V8 M119.974 500E/E500, 400E (M119.975), S-Class, and SL-Class owners out there that are very fond of our little machines, every little shred of information like the kind you have provided ensures that these engines will be around a long, long time.

Regarding my maintenance question earlier, I was unsure if this is something that does happen to this engine eventually, given enough time. This is the first mention of Oil Tubes here that I can recall, so I am trying to get all the details straight.

Thanks Again. :)

It does appear that those tubes can fail at any time. Let's face it. A poorly manufactured end in the tube could fail immediately. So I don't know why MB would persists with this design. Another one of life's unanswered questions!

However practically speaking, it does appear that they last for awhile. In my case, it's somewhat indeterminate since the original parts were replaced. Org part number was xxx xxx 02 xx.

My car just turned 100k; I bought it with about 75K on it. So there's no real way of determining how long they will last. But rest assured that engine heat, oil pressure and time will get at least one of them!

The Tick-tick is back!!!
 

Well, the tick-tick is back!!!

As I was pondering how to tell the 'world' that Auto-RX didn't do anything different than the other products, I discovered that the tick-tick was on the LEFT side of the engine, NOT the right (as it has been). So see what happened last year, check this link to my page:
http://pages.prodigy.net/jforgione/MB_S500.html Select MENU #19 to see one those bad 'critters'!

Upon closer examination, it definitely was on the LEFT side, so off came the valve cover. Guess what? One of the infamous oil tubes was open. That, of course, was the cause of the ticking lifter!!!

So Auto-RX's fame is still intact and the inside of my engine is absolutely clean. Should have taken some pics but was at my tech's shop. The mileage is about 400, so will leave it in a few more hundred miles before changing.

Regards . . . . JimF

I mentioned this to the local MB tech who also has a 500E, and he said that the 1992-1993 500E's are not susceptible since their tubes are made of metal.

All other models that used the 500E engine, and especially those after 1993, had plastic tubes, and were susceptible. He also said the dealer replaces these all the time on the M119 engine.

:-) neil
1988 360TE
1993 500E

Yes that correct . . . .
 

My tech's girlfriend has a '92 SL500 and got a chance to look at the 'tubes' when he pulled the cover off. Nice metal tubes(!) with spring loaded pessure relief.

BTW, the Auto-RX is a great product for cleaning up any engein especially mine with 100k+ miles of engine sludge.

Amazing stuff: it's made of all natural products (water soluble) and it slowly cleans the engine.

After removing the left side valve cover last week, the engine looks like it's new! No kidding.

Check out the site: http://www.auto-rx.com/

Thanks for the info.
 

Exactly what my 98 SL500 just started doing (see earlier "ticking" post). Anyone have an idea what a MB dealer will charge to remedy, and anything to watch out for. Should all be replaced, or just the "broken" piece.

Anyone have a good recommendation for a independant shop to perform in the North Dallas/Plano area?

Thank you.

Larry

Check out Menu#19 on my page and DIY! It's not that hard and actually kind of a fun job. You needent replace all but it's probably the best thing to do, but if you just replace the 'bad' one, it's a quick job.

I'm sure the dealer will replace all oil tubes on both sides. Guessimate . . 4 hours plus 16 oil tubes plus chain guide plus valve cover gasket kit = $750???

Jim, thank you
 

Thanks for the information, excellent info and great tips on your website. Now time to ponder if a MB newbie should do anything other than drive and enjoy, many thanks.

Larry

I just checked my oil tubes, and they're fine, but my engine still ticks
 

I've been having ticking that's been increasing over the past two years, from a single tick tick tick to multiple ticks that change with the engine speed, so I just examined all of my oil tubes for broken plugs. But they're all intact!

So, now I'm out of luck on finding the solution to my problem.

Others have said that a worn motor mount could be the problem, but the mounts look fine on visual inspection.

But, I do have a couple of leads.

1) when I pushed the oil tubes, they actually pushed in under the cam braces by about 1/8". So, could the tubes all be clogged, so the oil pumps sucks and pushed them, causing the tubes to tick back and forth? Or, could the oil tube O-rings be bad, and need replacing (there's 32 of them, 2 for each tube)

2) when I got this car a couple of years ago, I switched to Mobile 1 Synthetic 0W-40. And during those two years, the ticking got worse gradually. I'm thinking about switching to Dino oil, or should I go with 10W-50 Synthetic, or half Dino and half Synthetic?

A bad lifter is a rare commodity in a M119 engine . . . it's possible, just not highly probable.

If you read MENU#19, you will see how I solved my problem in two steps;
use of an 'engine-flush' and then use of Auto-RX for 2000 miles.

If you have ever used an additive such as Slick 50, Prolong, etc., then you probably had the same problem as I did; partially plugged oil passages and probably a partially plugged lifter.

All I can say, it has worked for me.

I've been reading your page about this problem for a long time now, but there's two things that keeps me from trying the cleaner:

One is that I don't drive my car very much anymore, so it would take me four months to drive 1000 miles.

Another is that I thought Mobile 1 would act as a good cleaner itself.... But if I'm wrong, I can try the cleaner method....

Also, I've never used Slick 50 or other engine additives, and the ticking got worse gradually after using Synthetic....

I have light ticking which appears to be coming from the valve train in my 85 380SE - M116 if I'm not mistaken. Nothing major, but I am very in tune to the smallest noise in all my vehicles and this one kind of detracts from an otherwise glass-smooth running engine. Is the M116 prone to this as well?

i've noticed that whenever i put in fresh engine oil, the ticking would go away for 4-5 days, and then the ticking would slowly come back.. ?:confused:

the ticking is back again, and i'm 99% sure the ticking is from the driver's side valve area, not passenger. which is strange b/c i've read that the rear passenger oil guides are the first ones to go.

but i did not find any oil pooling below the spark plug actuators, unlike what Greg Baxter found on his S500 in his DIY guide.

as I'm getting more familiar w/ my car and doing more work on it now, I think i can tackle replacing all the oil guides myself. However I'm not sure how the heck I'm going to remove the driver's side valve cover with all the tubing and wires running over it. ?? :book:

The "rear passenger oil guides" . . . not sure what you mean! If it's the "passenger" side as opposed to the "drivers" side, then that's also not based in fact.

The 'truth' is that ANY of the oil tubes can fail at any time; you will appreciate this more when you get the valve cover off and remove the bad(s) one(s). The end caps are just pressed into the opening. Menu#19 on my page shows clearly how the end just "pops-out" as does post#1.

As far as removing the driver's side valve cover, you can firmly but gently move the hard-lines back abit and the cover will come off nicely. It is MUCH tighter than the other side but it's doable.

Make sure you replace the gasket material; recommend you get a valve cover 'kit' which includes the spark plugs, etc.

One other important point: In Menu#19 at the bottom of the page, the methodolgy may be worth trying BEFORE you remove the valve covers. It still could be a partially plugged lifter that a little 'extreme' cleaning may just finally remove.

thanks Jim.

Is there a COMPLETE list of all the parts I need for the oil guide replacement? (for 97 E420) BTW, if I'm going to take the valve cover off I might as well replace all 16 oil guides.

I'm sure somebody knows all of the needed parts, however I do not.

Let me say this: I did NOT replace all of the oil tubes, only the two (2) that were bad and a few of the ones that could be changed easily. The two broken tubes were, fortunately, easy to change following the methodology outlined in Menu#19.

Of course, I endured the 'heat' of my tech, Pat of Exclusive Motors (middle of the home page) but, you know what?? That was over 4+ years ago and not one has failed since.

Now, I'm not saying you do the same thing but it's something to think about??

This might be helpful :)

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/M119OilGuides

Something doesn't make sense. If the oil guides break and the lifters are not getting enough oil, then why is the ticking noise still intermittent? Wouldn't it tick continuously, not once a while?

I read your post on BITOG and you said, " . . scaring all the kids in the neighborhood and people can hear it a block away"! If that's accurate, it's time to get those valve covers off . . . asap!

The ticking can be three (3) things: a plugged oil tube, a failed oil tube or a failed/plugged lifter.

If the oil tube is just paritally plugged or the tube is blown, then running the car in "3" gear as I mentioned helps to temporarily "pump" up the lifter so it works normally for a while. If the lifter is actually 'bad', then it will still temporarily respond to the high revs, but will make a lot of noise.

For both of the above, the 'trick' is the higher oil pressure when the car is run at freeway speeds. This tends to fix the the problem at least temporarily; running it in "stop-and-go" traffic, will bring the 'tick' back b/c of lower oil pressure.

Jim, I was just wondering: I can't tell from your picture where the chain tensioner clamp is. Is there a part number for that?

JimF,

Thanks for the info. On your website, you mention that the ticking came back even after replacing the oil guides, but autoRX finally cured the ticking noise once and for all? Did the ticking go away during the cleaning phase, or the rinsing phase?

Sure there is . . . but don't happen to know it. When you get near it, you can read the part number on it.

Did you really read the four (4) paragraphs at the bottom of MENU#19 in BLUE??

To summarize; I used a 'engine flush' as stated and then later used ARX to clean/remove any sludge/teflon, etc.

I did use products like Slick 50, Prolong, etc thinking that it would lower friction; well it's all BS and it left some partially plugged oil passages/lifters as its byproducts.

When the ARX was started the tick-tick was intermittant. It could have been, as many say, a byproduct of loosening/removing sludge. But as I remember, the car was 99% tick free during the cleaning phase of ARX.

Now in the maintenence phase, I've not heard a lifter tick in apx 3 years.

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread for a similar issue. My M113 has a slight mechanical "noise" at the left forward part of the engine block. After having this for a month I got a pretty loud tick-tick at startup, almost as when oil pressure is low for a couple of seconds, but this remained for a good minute or two. Then disappeared and didn´t come back on repeated startups until the engine has been stopped overnight.

So I made an oil and filter change, Mobil 1 0-40 as usual. After this I can still hear the tick-tick but much less although for the same good minute.

The slight mechanical noise is the same as before oil change.

What can cause this, it sounds like a single valve tick, but I am not sure. Can anything related to the cam chain and tensioner make a tick and also this lower noise?

Engine runs smooth and no extra exhaust smoke from what I can see.

94' E500 M119 Engine - Ticking when warm but not cold
 

My 94' E500 has 108,000 miles, with ticking that increases in frequency with engine revs. Ticking is only when engine is full operating temperature. No ticking at all when cold.

Using a stethoscope, I find the sound is most pronounced just behind oil filler cover forward end of right cylinder bank. I've had all oil tubes (rubber) on right side replaced, and this produced no change. Did not change left side, since ticking is on the right.

Oil pressure at idle is consistent 2 bar, without drop or fluctuation, and max otherwise. I've just about 100 miles ago switched from Mobile 1 Zero-40 (used by prior owner and dealer) to Castrol GTX 20-50 (mineral).

Some mechanics have indicated tensioner on timing chain could be going, however, the noise does not appear to be in that area. One mechanic theorized that tensioner has a hydraulic ram that could work better when engine is cold and oil is more thick, but again noise is not in that area. This particular independent throws his hands up, then and suggests replacing all tappets, though he reported they appeared OK when he pressed on them during oil tube replacement. One mechanic recommended using Prolong, however, that sounds like it will create more problems than it will solve.

Any suggestions appreciated.

About 1 yr or so ago, I switched from 20W-50 dino to synth oil and the engine became very quiet plus the engine temp is lower. Yes, it was very visible on the engine temp gauge.

Your symptoms are certainly different from mine and others w/ a bad oil tube (or two), so . . . as a WAG . . . I would go back to synth oil . . . and see what happens.

Thanks
 

Jim, thanks. I may go back to synthetic later, but for now do not feel the mineral/dino has anything to do with the noise, which was present all along with Mobile 1 in the engine during the first 1000 miles of my ownership, including before and after the oil tube replacement.

I'm presently running the engine only briefly on 10 mile runs trying to figure out the problem, and hope this is not endangering it.

What happens to the ends of the blown out tubes? Would they just get harmlessly chewed up by the valve train (should they get caught in it)?

oil pipes 103?
 

Like to know if the 103 engine have a similar oil pipe problem too? Any TSB
mak

No, the M103 has no such tubes. I believe there's a machined oil gallery the length of the head with a metal plug in the end. If you send a 103 head to the machine shop for a rebuild, a good shop will take the plug out before cleaning and seal it back up again.
There's a metal (maybe plastic on later models?) oiler tube that sits over the valvetrain and drips oil onto the rockers but that's a somewhat different purpose item

119 oil pressure
 

What should the oil press be at idle warmed up? I have 260k on mine and it is as quiet as a church mouse, but the press is just less than 1 bar at idle when warm.It is full bore when driving at speed.