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  #16  
Old 06-24-2002, 10:22 PM
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Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,632
In California, very few if any shops will deal with anything but R12 or R134a. In fact, in California, shops are required to have a tester that looks for contamination BEFORE servicing.

These blends really wreck havoc to the reclaimation/recycling required by the State of California.

Don't know about elsewhere.

:-) neil
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  #17  
Old 06-24-2002, 10:40 PM
Car Killer
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
I mean... from the websites for the EnviroSafe E-12 and the RB276 sound like god's gift to the world. I'm sure theres some downwides. My AC systems will never be pumped out or reclaimed, so I'm not worried about that.

They state it cools the same or better, has lower pressures, cheap, ect. sounds perfect. I'm hoping someone can shed some light as I currently have no R12 available cheap and no AC in either of my two current cars. (I'm NOT gonna pay $60/lb for 2.83 lbs in my volvo) I was almost considering a big bottle of the envirosafe IF someone can tell me if its really as good as it seems.

Thanks
Matt
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2003 Jetta Wagon TDI 145,000MI
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2001 Suzuki SV650S 26,000MI
2008 Yamaha Vino 125 11,000MI
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  #18  
Old 06-24-2002, 11:47 PM
edfer
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The Canadian government does not endorse Hydrocarbon refrigerants such as Enviro-safe nor do they prohibit their use.
I also read some stuff out of Australia that recommends the expansion valve be placed in the engine compartment on new cars. Nowhere have I read of any dire consequences actually occurring from using this stuff. I am still looking. If there was anything more than a very minor risk I am sure there would be evidence of it on the internet including case histories. The stuff has been around now for several years and is being made by at least two manufacturers here in the U.S. I intend to give it a try when I return from a trip in about 3 weeks.
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  #19  
Old 06-25-2002, 08:30 AM
LarryBible
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car54,

Yes, anyone with "snake oil" to sell ALWAYS says something to the effect that it is "God's gift to humanity." There are many problems with these "oils." They cause problems for the recyclers who as a group are serving to keep r12 available to us longer, these "oils" often are blends of two or more components that leak off at different rates. This means that if you get a leak, the only way you can get it right again is by completely removing the "oil" and recharging again from scratch.

You don't have to pay $60 per pound for R12 any more. With a 609 certificate, R12 can now be had for as little as $15 per pound.

Please research and think long and hard before usind the snake oil. I have been where you are now in your thinking. With R12 prices decreasing, I am totally rethinking this whole thing. As a matter of fact, I changed my '78 Ford 4X4, that I bought new, BACK to R12 this past weekend. I had changed it to r134 a few years ago and the York compressor just couldn't cut it with the stuff.

I recommend that you continue your research and thinking before taking the messy step toward alternative refrigerants.

Good luck,
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  #20  
Old 06-25-2002, 11:28 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 5,316
I basically agree with the R12 crowd now that R12 seems to be coming down in price. I converted my 300E to R134a two years ago when R12 was going up in price and people were predicting that you soon would not be able to get it at all.

I converted because of:

a. The dire predictions about R12 and its expense.
b. My compressor, manifold pipe and dryer needed to be replaced, so all I was out for the conversion was a new Schraeder valve and the two sensors.
c. The lower cost of the R134a offset the additional parts.

I did not change the condensor or the fan. I have been satisfied with the performance. It is comfortable when driving, but I would not recommend it to someone who leaves their car in the sun in heat and humidity on a regular basis. It just doesn't get as cold as R12.

And besides, I enjoy playing AC technician once a year with my can of R134a, my guage, and my collection of connectors.

BTW - the PO of my '73 280C converted that system to R134a, and it works very well, actually better than the 300E. :-)
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Chuck Taylor
Falls Church VA
'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe
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  #21  
Old 06-26-2002, 04:02 AM
Snow bum
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Here and there . . .
Posts: 238
I desperately need some R12 for my system. I have researched the various angles of the conversion, and I do not see any possible benefit to the environment of venting my remaining R12 into the atmosphere just so I can replace it with R134. Unfortunately, the state of Colorado does not agree, and it can not be purchased in this state.

Can anybody out there (maybe Larry with his $15 per pound connection) help me out with purchasing some R12? I just need a pound or two, and it will save me the great expense of driving to another state.

Thank you for any help.
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The MBs:
1976 300D (W115) - 330K and still going (sort of)
1991 300D 2.5 Turbo - Sold at 221K
1983 280SEL - Sold at 206K
1981 300SD - Sold at 232K
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  #22  
Old 06-26-2002, 08:38 AM
LarryBible
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I expect that you CAN legally purchase R12 in Colorado as long as you have a 609 certificate. You can go online and take the OPEN BOOK test for $15. Then you can purchase R12 online or at your local auto parts. This is a national law, I expect that it applies in every state.

Where it IS illegal to purchase R12 is if you do not have the certificate.

It would be a violation of federal law for me or anyone to sell you R12 unless you have the 609 certificate.

Good luck,

BTW, the $15 is not a special deal for me. Auto Zone is selling it for this price (to 609 certificated people of course) if you can find a store that has it.
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  #23  
Old 06-26-2002, 03:37 PM
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Join Date: May 1999
Location: So. Burlington, VT
Posts: 78
I think I'm beating a dead horse but I have a comment and a question. Yesterday I had my '89 300E in the shop to get the AC working. I knew going in that I would bite the bullet and pay for the R12 but when I picked the car up, I talked with the owner and he spent a lot of time telling me that he has done conversions in the past on many cars but has stopped and will not do any more. He does not do them for all the reasons mentioned in the previous posts. If I didn't know better, I'd swear I was talking to Stevebfl..............
My question.....2 summers ago, I had a leak that was repaired. The AC worked fine all summer and last summer but was blowing cold air this year. The shop that charged it yesterday pressure tested it and put dye in the system and everything looks great. If I'm losing all R12 in 2 years I must have a leak????? Any ideas where I could have a leak that is so miniscule that it doesn't show up in a pressure test and wouldn't be visible ????
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  #24  
Old 06-26-2002, 04:06 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Falls Church, VA
Posts: 5,316
Steve B could certainly teach New England mechanics a thing or two about AC. :-)

Did he check the condensate from the evaporator, and use a sniffer at the air vents?

If you still have the aluminum evaporator, you may be looking at the beginning of the standard W124 troubles. There are a ton of posts on this.
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Chuck Taylor
Falls Church VA
'66 200, '66 230SL, '96 SL500. Sold: '81 380SL, '86 300E, '72 250C, '95 C220, 3 '84 280SL's '90 420SEL, '72 280SE, '73 280C, '78 280SE, '70 280SL, '77 450SL, '85 380SL, '87 560SL, '85 380SL, '72 350SL, '96 S500 Coupe
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  #25  
Old 06-27-2002, 03:24 AM
Snow bum
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Here and there . . .
Posts: 238
Larry,

Thank you so much for the advice. I had no idea it was so easy to become certified, and I didn't know that the stuff was even sold in this state. To make a long story short, I became certified this afternoon and bought 1 1/2 lbs of R12 at a total cost of $60. I charged the system and it blows frigid air. I forgot just how nice that A/C system is when it is working. Looks like I will be able to tolerate the rest of the summer.

Thanks a million,
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Ben

The MBs:
1976 300D (W115) - 330K and still going (sort of)
1991 300D 2.5 Turbo - Sold at 221K
1983 280SEL - Sold at 206K
1981 300SD - Sold at 232K
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  #26  
Old 06-27-2002, 04:37 AM
Car Killer
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
The EPA 609 test is a joke! I cant believe it!
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2003 Jetta Wagon TDI 145,000MI
1999.5 Jetta TDI 287,000MI
2001 Suzuki SV650S 26,000MI
2008 Yamaha Vino 125 11,000MI
http://www.crazymatt.org
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  #27  
Old 06-27-2002, 07:22 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 571
Contrary to what some think, having a 609 certification WILL NOT guarantee that you can buy R-12 in just any area of the U. S.

Some states and municipalities have additional restrictions. In these cases, you more or less have to be employed in the field and must be able to prove it.

No point in going after one if it's not going to fly in your area. If it does and you believe R-12 is superior to R-134a for systems that were designed for R-12, go for it.
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  #28  
Old 06-27-2002, 08:55 AM
LarryBible
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Posts: n/a
Mike,

Thanks for the information. There are sites that will ship the R12 to you as long as you provide legitimate 609 certification information.

I don't know if this works on the areas you talk about or not.

My $0.02,
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  #29  
Old 06-27-2002, 09:32 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 571
Larry:

I believe you're in the Dallas, Tx. area. I "think" you're ok. Austin, Tx(tree-hugger colony) will not allow R-12 sales with only a 609, at least that's the way it was a few yrs. ago.

Wisconsin won't allow R-12 sales in 12 oz. cans according to what I read the other day. It wasn't stated as such, but it sounds as though you could buy the 30 lb. cyls. They're now going for around $750-$800. I suppose the thinking here is how many diyers are going to unload that kind of $$$.

Many parts of southern Calif. also have additional restrictions. Some areas, though not many, will not allow the sales of R-134a over the counter to diyers. It's been determined that R-134a is harmful to the environment as well...so some say.

The $15 Auto Zone R-12 came up the other day. I ended up calling every one where I live and none had it. Most all of the AZ employees I talked with over the phone said Auto Zone would no longer sell R-12, but that's where I live. Perhaps AZs in other areas have it for $15.

I just got done searching the WEB and found one place that sells 12 can cases of R-12 for $288. That's $24 a can + some sort of shipping fee. I've bought refrigerant over the WEB B4 and as you say, all it required was a faxed copy of a drivers lic. and 609. I suspect people living in areas with additonal restrictions would be disallowed web purchasing capabilities??

I may grab a case of this $24 a can juice. Local prices are $28-$36 a can and I plan on keeping my old R-12 cars for many yrs. to come.

A local shop owner told me the other day that around the yr. 2006, Carbon Dioxide would replace R-134a. Things keep getting more & more interesting by the day.

Have a good one.
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  #30  
Old 06-27-2002, 11:55 PM
Car Killer
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
It just makes me sick. I saw an auction for some old cans of R12 on ebay, and noticed the original $1.45 price sticker on the cans. The auction was for three cans and was at $55.00, for somthing that was originally $1.45. GRRR
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2003 Jetta Wagon TDI 145,000MI
1999.5 Jetta TDI 287,000MI
2001 Suzuki SV650S 26,000MI
2008 Yamaha Vino 125 11,000MI
http://www.crazymatt.org
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