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  #31  
Old 06-28-2002, 08:23 AM
LarryBible
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If they are old enough to have that price tag, they are probably 14 oz. cans instead of 12 oz. cans as typically seen now. It's really interesting to see what is called a one pound can having only 3/4 pounds inside.

I remember in the seventies it was very common to see R12 cans at Target or KMart for $.59 each.

I wouldn't let my blood pressure get out of control over this. It's only your congress at work, coupled with good ol' supply and demand free enterprise at work. It beats socialism by a country mile.

Have a great day,
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  #32  
Old 06-28-2002, 02:56 PM
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My understanding is the change from R12 to R134a was because DuPont's patent on R12 was over, and DuPont lobbied hard to get R12 banned in the USA (it's still used in other countries like Mexico) and offerred R134a instead.

The pharmaceutical companies are basically doing the same thing once a patent runs out, and generics are on the horizon.

They'll lobby hard to keep their marketplace by releasing basically the same drug but with slightly different chemistries (e.g., slow release, etc.) and lobbying hard to the Doctor's office including loads of free samples.

The WallStreet Journal had a good article about 2-weeks ago. They'll even begin filing for patent's for any variation so that genrics are even harder to produce.

It's one reason why generics aren't widely available for the "designer" drugs, and Health Care Insurance for these drugs have gone up in premiums.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E
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  #33  
Old 06-28-2002, 04:56 PM
LarryBible
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I've heard the BS Patent stuff. If you will read Al Gore's book you will get another slant on this issue from the standpoint of an environmental extremist fanatics view point. I personally don't believe that Dupont had squat to do with it. The product, after all, was continuing to make a profit. Why would anyone want to do away with a product that is making profit.

For those who may not understand how the manufacturing world works, large capital expenditures are made with the idea of being a long term investment. Once this money is invested, very little of it can be recovered to put into other ventures. Factories are built, large equipment and process investments are made and if the product is halted, the investment in equipment and development cannot be fully regained. Actually during the twilight years of a products life cycle, it is often very profitable because R&D costs as well as initial equipment and process installation costs have been recovered, so there is more margin to play with.

This is a situation where one political group tries to blame it on another. It's just like a fanatic to do something fanatical but try to deflect the bad part of the effect on someone else.

Have a great day,
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  #34  
Old 06-28-2002, 06:21 PM
engatwork's Avatar
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Join Date: May 2000
Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
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check this out now

I have been following these debates so the freon issue has been on my mind. There is a place down the street from where I worked that went out of business after 90 years. They sold and repaired construction equipment. Now, the liquidation sale is going on. I have been lucky enough to get the following deals:
a) Dupont Freon 12 for $15/can.
b) Delo 400 $3/gallon. I got 12 gallons at this price.
c) Snap On diesel compression tester with all kind of different adapters $20.
d) Dewalt side grinder $20.
They are supposed to get another shipment in next week. The Delo 400 at $3/gallon goes the fastest .
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  #35  
Old 06-30-2002, 08:09 PM
Car Killer
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
Well, I just picked up a new, unopened 30lb cylinder of Dupont R12 for just under $17/lb, and a new Mac tools R12 gauge manifold set for $60. I'm all set for many years. thanks.
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  #36  
Old 06-30-2002, 09:12 PM
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Location: Houston, Texas
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I bought some R-12 off Ebay the other day for $30 a pound. This seller never even asked for my EPA cert (wasn't an official auction; I contacted him directly). Apparently he lives near/on the Mexico border and is importing it there where it looks like it is still being packaged or sold. I'm not sure if this is reclaimed or virgin Freon, but based on the condition of the cans, this stuff was recently bottled.

The only catch is that the Freon is being put into R-134a-type cans. (top is not R-12 tap adaptable). Now the question is how do I get this stuff into my R-12 system.





~Paul
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  #37  
Old 06-30-2002, 11:44 PM
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Paul:

The end of your R-134a tap that connects to the Schraeder valve likely will not connect to an R-12 Schraeder valve. I see from your photos that this product was made in Mexico. It's quite likely you were sold R-134a and charged an R-12 price.

I'll bet the EPA would like to talk to the guy who sold you this product.

E-bay unfortunately is a breeding ground for unscrupulous people.
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  #38  
Old 07-01-2002, 01:47 PM
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Location: Mass
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Paul,

Piece of cake!
Buy one of those R-134 conversion kits that are sold just about everywhere. They have the tap and adaptor fittings in the kit.
Some places even sell just the adaptor fittings, but those are harder to find, and not much cheaper. So you wind up with 3 extra cans of R-134 and some lube, no big deal.

I hear the Feds crack down pretty hard on these blackmarket vendors if they catch them. They are treated sort of like drug dealers. Doubt they would go after the users, though you never know...
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  #39  
Old 07-01-2002, 02:00 PM
Car Killer
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 178
Take this stuff to a high quality shop that has a refrigerant identifier and have them open and test one of the cans. Its quite possible its 134a, but without testing, you cannot know for sure.
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2003 Jetta Wagon TDI 145,000MI
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  #40  
Old 07-01-2002, 02:38 PM
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Posts: 571
Paul:

Legitimate sellers will have you fax an image of your drivers license and your 609 certification. The person you bought from didn't request it for a very simple reason: He didn't sell you R-12. He merely stuffed R-134a in an R-134a can and painted it R-12. You paid $30 for something that can be had at Wal-Mart for about $4.50.

As soon as I saw "Hecho in Mexico", I knew you had been ripped off. The contents of the can may not even be R-134a. There's really no telling what's in it and as one poster above suggested, it would need to be analyzed.

I would contact the EPA and turn this crook in.
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  #41  
Old 07-01-2002, 09:59 PM
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This is R-12. I know because the Ebay seller continues to sell these exact cans and receives positive feedback from the auctions.

Like I said, I contacted him indirectly, and that's probably the reason why he didn't ask for my EPA cert.

To be absolutely certain though, I will have it analyzed before putting it into my AC system.

~Paul

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