engine conversion
 

Does anyone have information of converting a 450slc to a 350 Chevy engine? This is a common conversion for Jags, etc. but I haven't seen anything on the net about an slc change over. Considering the cost of repairs for a failed timing chain on a 450 I would think this would be a common change over.

Do a search on www.badbenz.com
There is a guy that put a stroker engine in a 1979 2 door.
Based on the way the car looks I'm sure he did not save any money though - beautiful car.

Unless you put some serious money into the Chevy, you will be losing horsepower, and will have to manufacture a driveline.

Good condition M117 engines aren't in short supply at all, just a bit pricey. I'd just put another one in, or get the engine work done. If you do the work yourself, you are only out a valve job on one head (if the chain broke on starup) or both heads (if it broke running), probably new cams and rockers if you have lots of milage, and a new chain. Worse if you managed to punch a hole in the front cover when the chain piled up. Parts cost is horrible, and I think you will be ahead when you are done.

Peter

conversion
 

The badbenz.con site is a very impressive effort. I have a feeling that this will be one of those cars one sees for sale that says, "have 50K plus invested, sell for 18K". Still, as with most hobbies, it is the effort more than the result.

Peter, Chevy engines that produce a solid 250+hp can be had for less than $2k complete. Fair enough there are installation costs but if one bought a 100K MB with a blown engine it might be worth the effort to convert. I nearly have heart failure buying part for my Ford tractor, God knows what a pair of 450 cam shafts would do to me.

I love chocolate and I love nuts, but I HATE nuts with my chocolate.

I love MB's and I love small block Chevies, but I HATE the thought of them together. Chocolate and nuts.

My $0.02,

you should be able to track down a used engine, or even a rebuild for not as much as you think.

A competent MB tech, who does good work, should be sought out to give you an estimate to bring it back to life.

Try www.silverstarrecycling.com or potomac german auto, to name a couple of salvage yards you may find a good engine in.

Alon

Being more of a practicalist than a purist, if I should need a new engine or extensive repairs, I think that I would go with a conversion simply because one can get more bang (read as HP) for one's buck with a medium size US engine. I have been driving for about 45 years and as yet have, one, never thrown a timing chain that caused multi-thousands of dollars dammage to an engine, and, two, never had to pay the kind of prices that MB charges for its spares. The ides with driving is to get down the road in style and comfort while having maximum reliability at minimum expence. I realize that this approach is sacrilege to a die hard MB owner but I would rather be out driving my slc with a Chevy engine in it that having it sit in the garage while I wait for MB parts or the money to buy them.

Its really not as expensive as you think though... I would do some research into good techs to properly diagnose and do the repairs for an estimate before trying to tackle a conversion. I do agree that the power issue is a good one.

In no means am I against it, I just think that the prices you seem to think everything is aren't really as high as you think they are.

Do some checking through fastlane or partsshop here on this site. I am sure you will find parts to be pretty well priced.

And checkt he good mb shops section for a recommendation of a good shop near you to have the car estimated at. It wouldn't hurt any to get a few extra prices.

Alon

I couldn't agree more with Ashman. Have you ever done an engine swap? The engine itself might be inexpensive, but the conversion will not be. Then, once on the road you will most likely have numerous things to sort out. Been there, done that.

As far as your comments about MB, you happen to have one of the most complex of MB engines in the V8. These engines require close attention to timing chain and chain guides. If that is done, they are most reliable. I'm sorry that you have had bad luck.

There are reasons that the Small Block Jag is common. The first is that the Jag engines make the MB V8 you have, look very reliable and very inexpensive by comparison. Secondly, the Chev V8 configuration happens to nestle into the Jag engine compartment quite nicely; the oil pan sump in the right place and the dimensions fit well, etc.

Have a great day,

I imagine you could easily spend $10k putting a Chevy engine in it if you do it right. I met the guy with the badbenz and talked to him at length and it sounded like he had at least $35k in that car.

I am nearly 60 and have beem messing with engines for the better part of 50 of those years. I have done numerous car engine swaps, a couple of motorcycle swaps, and many, many rebuilds. I have worked on everything from .049 model airplane engines to 40K hp Fiat marine engines in the Persian Gulf. Their cylinder liners are 1.1 meter in dia. and nearly 4 meters long. We installed 4 on them during the Iran Iraq war in 1984 in a super tanker off Bander Abas, Iran while Iraqi pounded the crap out of the Hormuz terminal near by. Not that this makes me a hero, only that it means I have done my share of weird mechanical projects in 20 years of living as a free lancer over seas.
If one were not going to go where Mr. badbenz.com went,(and, I must say, it looks like he did a masterfull job) I can't see that a new, warmed over sbc 350 and even a GM 700 overdrive trans. would cost more than $4K installed. Buying a salvaged MB 450 engine without going through it completely is basically buying someone elses problems. Going through a 450 I doubt would give one much change out of $4K. Then, when the 450 is complete, you are tied to MB's exorbitantly priced spares and service for the next 150k miles.
Don't get me wrong, MB makes some stunning cars and engines. I have been through the MB museum in Stutgart twice and the bill of fare there is beyond compare. But, being of Yankee extraction on my father's side, I tend towards the practical more than the purist side of the issue.
If I did not have the highest regard for MB's products I would not be drooling after a silver and black Euro model slc.

The biggest problem is that the sump on the MB is in front and the sump on the Chevy is in the back. This means that the crossmember has to be removed to put the Chevy engine in the MB, and that you then have to find a way to put a suspension back in. Biggo Problemo.

The usual "fix" is to stuff a Chevy front end from a midsized RWD car under the Benz, totaly ruining the handling, etc. More trouble. The fancy fix is to fabricate an offset crossmember so the oil pan can stick down were the crossmember should be.

The repair for the broken chain is far easier than the hassle of getting the chevy engine in there. You will only be out the valves on the right head, a head gasket, a chain, chain guides, and some time. You will probably need to pull the engine (vastly easier to remove the heads with the engine out!) and the left head needs come off if the chain was dropped and you can't fish the replacement through (chain cover goes under the heads, a royal pain to re-install if the heads are on). If you do it yourself, you won't be out more than $2000 for parts at the most. Costs $4000 for Hans to do it at $60/hr.

Peter

Now that we know who we're talking to, let's proceed with engine swap dialog.

I expect that you are one of those people (and I have known several in my life, including my Dad) who are project oriented. My Dad swapped a Model A engine into an Essex in the early thirties. I expect that the fact that the engine currently in the car is expensive has little to do with your desire to do this engine swap. You want to do it because "it's there." I have done a few engine swaps over the years myself. If you have done them before, then you know what's involved and what you're getting into. Most people who talk about doing an engine swap haven't a clue what they're getting into, that's why I was discouraging before.

I still hate to see an MB get modified like this, but I expect you will do it regardless, and if you do, I would like to see you be successful at it.

If you are not totally hung up on a small block Chevy, a small block Ford would be a much more practical swap for this application. The sump is in the front, AND the external dimensions are slightly smaller. There are also oil pump pickup/oil pan combinations that can move the sump into different locations. But, I expect that using the pickup/pan combination from the sixties, early seventies would put the sump where you want it. This would be an easy item to find and will fit on any small block Ford up through the mid nineties when they went to what they call the Modular V8 which is a totally different animal.

Additionally, with the Ford distributor in the front, I expect that this would make things easier for this swap.

You also are not limited to the 5.0, although it is clearly the most common. The 351 Windsor is of the same family and would offer more low end torque, if that is what you want. If you're wanting to really build some torque and power, you can get an intake manifold that will allow you to use Cleveland heads. The Cleveland heads certainly outflow Windsor heads and they even outflow decent sbc heads.

Keep us posted on the project,

If I remember correctly the badbenz had a dry sump.

The thought of a dry sump occurred to me. However, since this gentlemen wants a somewhat economical swap, this would be too expensive, I feel quite sure. BadBenz, was a blank check project.

Keep up the thoughts,

Larry,
Tks for the info. I am obviously hoping that I don't have to make such a conversion, but, I would not shy away from the opportunity. Another nice engine is the 3.8 lt Buick. It is the same engine used originally in the Range Rover. It is light and can be tweeked substantially. There is a soon to be scrap 450slc in the next town over that I can get for nearly free. It might be worth the effort to buy it and practice a conversion on it. I don't know if there is any market for such a conversion as there is with the Jag/Chevy. I think the MB owners are probably more brand loyal than Jagers. I am going to start on a new 30x60ft. shop in the pasture behind the house. Once I get a concrete floor under me I might take on such a project.

Kip:

The main reason for the chevy jag is that the V12 jag is a problem engine, unbelievably expensive to work on, and defectively designed (on top of being a VERY tight fit, it overheats due to cooling jacket design problems). Much, much cheaper to get a 350 in there than fix the fried V12.

Ditto for a 350 in a Volvo Diesel when the diesel dies -- rebuild cost is $5000 or so, not including labor, and even the turbodiesel is marginal on power. Great milage, but 105 hp just won't drag it fast enough for most folks.

None of the above applies to a 450slc.

Peter

kip,

I assume you are talking about the Buick V6. I know nothing about the configuration of the engine as far as sump location, etc., but they are very well thought of engines. The engine was designed for the Buick Special that came out in 1961 or so, so it is probably somewhat compact. The tooling was sold to British Leyland in the seventies and bought back in the eighties. They then reconfigured the crankshaft to have a symmetric firing order (equal number of degrees between engine firings) As a result of this, the crankshaft looks very strange. It looks like the journals were sawed in half, offset and then glued back together. Although it looks strange, it obviously has worked out quite well. The Grand National Buick of the eighties used this as the engine platform and was one of the fastest production cars on the street.

I have been wanting to build a new shop for several years. My shop is only '22 by 40' and doubles as a wood shop. I move woodworking equipment to the side when it comes auto major project time. If I put a few cars in the weather temporarily I can use the shop for both. 30 X 60 with four bays is what I want to build with doors on both sides to get plenty of breeze in the Texas Summer. My current shop has 16' doors on the North and South ends. It gets the prevailing South wind through to help cool it. I'm envious of your shop project, hopefully I can follow suit soon.

Have a great day,

Mo' pages on swaps
 

Here's more grist for the mill:
www.carcentric.com/450SLswap.htm
www.geocities.com/benzswap/
and the direction I'm going after deciding against an American V8 swap:
www.carcentric.com/MB2MBswap.htm

For either of the two carcentric.com pages, if you spot errors or have something to add, please email me directly at my350SL@yahoo.com - and thanks!

M D "Doc" Nugent
Renton, WA

I quickly perused Mr. Nugents link. Another point came out that is in favor of the fit of a small Ford. That is the oil filter on the Chevy interferes with the steering box. The Ford oil filter is on the left front of the motor in a better location for the swap. The Power Steering pump is also in the same spot as the MB's, I would use the Ford pump and simply adapt the hoses.

The Ford alternator is also in a convenient location for wiring. I expect the a/c compressor is also in the correct location. Any of these items can be moved anywhere there is no interference, but is much more easily and cleanly accomplished if they are in the same location.

There may be some GM loyalty here that is disallowing the Ford engine as a possibility in spite of the practicality. I since that because of the 3.8 Buick suggestion. If you're dead set against a Ford V8, speak up and I'll stop pointing out the practicality of it.

Everything else being equal I would prefer an SBC because of the wider availability and interchangability of speed and replacement parts, but the if the fit of a Ford is more practical, the Ford engine is a very good engine. There again, sometimes brand loyalty will prohibit such thinking.

Good luck,

i believe that rover / buick v8 in question is the all aluminum one that displaces about 3.5L and still in use on rovers. the original design was the buick-olds 215 which has been out of production for some time but i think can still be found. it is a light, compact engine that is a favorite for british car V8 conversions - specifically MG's...

I'm aware of the 215, it was all the rage in the early sixties in the F85. It was turbo charged and water injected. He just said 3.8 and I assumed he was talking about the V6. It was a neat engine.

I remember seeing an article in a magazine several years back about interchangibility of parts and hop up parts for the little V8. I don't think the engine needs to be THAT compact, and I expect stuff would not be very readily available as a small block Ford or Chevy.

Have a great day,

There is not any Chevy loyality in particular. I am mostly only loyal to price. I know people that swear by one brand or the other and neither seems to have any better luck than the other. I think brand loyality is mostly what one makes of it. I do all my own repairs so I become loyal to what ever is the easiest to fix. I have 2 Chrysler mini vans with a total of about 325K miles. Aside from the tranmissions they are great cars. I also have 2 20 year old Chevy Diesel trucks. I can't say that I would buy another but I manage to keep both running.
I think your observations about the Ford are as good a reason to look at them as any. As I said in my last post, I am not looking to undertake such a swap, but, given the right situation I would not turn it down.
I spent from 1970 until 1990 overseas so I am quite out of touch with all the new car engines (can tell you what is hot is 20K hp marine engines). A quick scan through one of the many hotrod mags. will really open one's eyes. I remember when the first 327ci./350hp Chevy came out and when Don Garlits ran the first 180 mph quarter. We all thought that that was just about as far an humans could go. Now I see that they are getting 1hp/ci out of a Riobi weed whacker engine converted to a model airplane engine, and 6Khp and 315mph out of a dragster. Will wonders never end.
In regard to the Buick engine I thought that the original aluminum engine was a 3.5 v8 that was later bored out to 3.8, but I may be wrong. I seem to remember that the original engine had a narrower V than the std. V8 which made if a good choice for putting into MGs, Austins and Triumphs. Regardless, there is a bunch of nice little engines that, with the proper tweeking, might make a very interesting conversion into a slc.

Chevy Swap into Mercedes...
 

Hi Kip,
You might be interested in checking out my web page, which details the conversion of my 1982 Mercedes 300D to a chevy 4.3L V6 with t700R4 transmission. I experienced none of the dramatic problems everyone has implied might happen, and the conversion has been on the road for almost 2 years now with absolutely no problems at all. I've literally not had to change or add anything to this conversion, the only side effect being that the front of the car sits high enough so I wore the tread off the front tires prematurely before I noticed. (I didn't think about alignment until after I replaced the tires!) I made up an exhaust manifold for the drivers side that comes up above the steering box and then down to the crossover pipe - the passenger side worked fine as-is. I used a TBI engine, and installed the fuel pump up on the driver's side fender well, so the pressurized line is less than 2 feet long. (only 13 psi with TBI, so no problem anyway...) The t700R4 transmission works great with the 4.3L V6, and the car gets extremely good mileage and has plenty of power, much more than with the turbo diesel. I am very happy with the conversion, and it drives very well.

The site URL: http://pages.prodigy.net/rwooldridge/mercedes.htm
The total cost of this conversion was under $900.00, and took me about a month of spare time messing around. I got a good deal on the engine I used, and didn't bother to touch it before installing it in the car, a gamble that paid off with no problems afterwards. I'm not sure how much more your car weighs, but suspect it might be in the 300 - 500 lb range. You might consider the 4.3L if you can find one cheap enough! (Mine came out of a Chevy Astrovan.) I'm in my 60's also, and found the conversion an interesting project that paid off handsomely.

Regards, Richard Wooldridge

1982 300D/4.3L Mercedes
1977 XJ6L Jaguar
1977 280Z Datsun 2+2
1985 GMC S15 pickup
1994 Ford Taurus (Wife's car)
1988 Chev Astrovan
1967 Clark Cortez Motorhome!
1986 Kubota DIESEL tractor.... See, I really DO like diesels!

Aluminum engine...
 

Hi again,
I forgot to mention that that aluminum engine was the 215 ci V8 that GM produced in two versions from 1961 through 1963... I have one in my garage, waiting for some worthy project. They were great little engines, the 1963 Olds engine produced 200 hp at 10,500 rpm stock from the factory, with no turbo, just the 4bbl engine. (That's the one I have.) It only weighs 275 lbs without the exhaust headers. The buick version had different heads and intake manifold, but was basically the same engine. In 1964 Buick came out with a 300CI cast iron block with aluminum heads - if you can find the 1964 heads and install them on a 1963 aluminum block you have a real good starting point for lots of power, as the 1964 heads had much larger valves. With a bit of work, you can also put the 1964 crank in the 1963 engine for a stroker engine. These were very popular with the sand drag folks. GM sold the castings to Rover, and when the gas crunch hit they tried to buy them back, but Rover wouldn't sell... They have added more ci to the engine, and also added fuel injection, but it's still the same basic engine.

Sorry to get off the Mercedes track, but I thought I'd try to clear up the confusion.... The Buick I think people have talked about is indeed the 3.8 V6, it's a fine engine also.

Richard Wooldridge
Etc... - see previous post

richard,

i enjoyed the pages that detailed your conversion project. also, find it interesting that you actually have a 215. there are a few rebuild kits available for it, even strokers. i think that kip originally was thinking about this v8 as that engine is a well known compact and light design. ...