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  #1  
Old 07-25-2002, 06:41 PM
surfblau's Avatar
neue Dieseler
 
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Location: san francisco - immer kalt, immer windig, I want to move
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bad shaking 300TD all the time now? Advice?

In a last attempt to fix my hot idle problem that has been getting to the point of being unignorable, yesterday I put in 5 new injection delivery valve seals (the copper ones).

Now the car shakes and shakes bad at all temperatures and all rpms below 1000. It is rocking side to side at least an inch on each swing.

Before resorting to the the IP, I have already
- diesel purged twice
- new motor mounts
- new rack damper pin

I haven't yet checked the begin of fuel delivery for the injection pump, and I guess this is an obvious next step that I will probably do in 5 minutes.

Does anyone else have any words of wisdom? The car is getting close to undrivable.
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  #2  
Old 07-25-2002, 06:44 PM
yel_low
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the inj.valves can be faulty, have u checked the injectors?
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  #3  
Old 07-25-2002, 07:14 PM
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neue Dieseler
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco - immer kalt, immer windig, I want to move
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not yet,

There wasn't any nailing from the injectors, so I thought that they were probably ok. You got me thinking that perhaps it is "worn injectors".

What is the best way to check the injectors?

Remove all injectors and get them bench tested? Are there any other ways?

thanks
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  #4  
Old 07-25-2002, 10:22 PM
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Location: Evansville, Indiana
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Surfblau:

Check those new seals for dirt and retorque them. It is fairly easy to fail to get them tightened properly so they leak, and if one is leaking badly, you will have severe engine shake below 1500 rpm or so. Usually have serious knock, too.

You can check for leaking seals by loosening the injector cap nuts one at a time -- when you get the the one with a leaking seal, the engine speed won't change. Having that engine running on three or four cylinders will rattle your teeth!

Proper torque is 20 to 25 ft/lbs three times -- that is, pull the pressure valve holder up to 25 ft/lbs, wait a few seconds, and pull again. You usually find that it takes two pulls before the holder stops rotating. Copper seals harden as you smash them between the holder and IP, so if you don't tighten the second and third time, they squeeze out a little.


Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
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  #5  
Old 07-26-2002, 12:15 AM
surfblau's Avatar
neue Dieseler
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
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thanks ps

I will give that a try and see how the engine speed varies.

Your note will let me sleep a little better tonight.

By the way, the delivery valve holders were surprisingly cruddy. There were a few spots of corrosion on the outside and some rusty/silty crud on the inside. I attempted to flush it out by manually pumping, but I bet there is a lot more inside the IP.


thanks
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  #6  
Old 07-26-2002, 03:15 PM
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Surfblau:

Have you checked the valve clearance? May be valves need to be adjusted.
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  #7  
Old 07-26-2002, 06:20 PM
yel_low
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it aint not Copper seals, its a kind of "hardmetall"


DO NOT RE-TORQUE!!!!

4.5kg i torque them at work when i change them!


the injectors u can leave to a dieselworkshop and they can fix them, otherwise u can send em to me to sweden and ill fix them
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2002, 07:29 PM
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valve clearance should still be ok

I did a valve adjustment about 3000 miles ago and they were not too far off even then.

As for the seals, I wasn't sure that they were copper. I actually thought that they were some kind of brass. Anyway, I got them from the dealer, so I am halfway confident that they are the correct type.

(EDIT) I just opened each injection line like psfred described to try to isolate the problem. When each nut was unscrewed at the fuel injector, the engine clearly slowed, by about the same amount for each line. As I undid each nut at the injector, the engine swayed more and more. Then when I closed it, the engine returned to its regular wide ossilations.

I am thinking that it is time to get the injectors tested. The return lines are pretty brittle (the couple that I haven't replaced)and it looks like none of the injectors have been out of the head since the day it was built.

If anyone has any other ideas, let me know.

alec
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Last edited by surfblau; 07-26-2002 at 08:14 PM.
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  #9  
Old 07-26-2002, 08:49 PM
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Dollar to a donut if you had crud in the IP you have crud in the injectors, and they don't spray correctly. Easy enough to have them checked, any diesel shop can test them and replace the nozzles (you can too, but then how to set the opening pressure?)

How did you set the rack dampning bolt? There are a couple tricks to doing correctly. You must have a hot engine -- and an assistant! Replace the engine shock first! Then, with hot engine, have an assisant put the car in gear and stand on the brakes. Helps to chock the wheels, too, just in case. Loosen the locknut, the SLOWLY run the rack bolt in until the shaking stops. Lock nut, run engine up against the brakes, then check again at idle in gear for vibration. Stop turning the bolt in as soon as the vibration stops. If you then have cold start trouble, you will have to settle for some vibration or a pump rebuild.

If the pump was cruddy inside, you may be due for a rebuild anyway (or replacement). the rough idle problem is really a collapsing spring on the other end of the rack bolt that allows it to vibrate back and forth in harmony with engine vibration. Not a problem in the 240s because the vibration isn't harmonic with the engine.

Let us know how things turn out. My indie mechanic said you eventually get vibration you cannot get rid of unless you rebuild the IP. His was like that (250,000) but otherwise ran so well he just tried to ignore it.

Peter
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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2002, 12:38 AM
surfblau's Avatar
neue Dieseler
 
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ps, thanks for the note

I found a reportedly good shop 30minutes from my house that will test them for $5 each (search pacific and injector).

The rack dampning bolt didn't help much because all the way in, it still didn't slow the rocking on the hot engine.

One thing, you mentioned replace the engine shock first. I am wondering if my engine shocks are totally spent. When I put in the motor mounts, I thought that I remember the engine shocks having some resistance, not totally flacid like my steering shock was. Maybe I will go check them again when I have a chance this weekend.

Either way, Monday morning the injectors get tested.

thanks for all your help
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  #11  
Old 07-27-2002, 11:21 AM
yel_low
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i have NO engine shocks on my 300sd with 6cyl.

IP may be worn. aint cheap to fix... here in sweden..
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bad shaking 300TD all the time now?  Advice?-landsv%E4gsloket-under-huven-fix.jpg  
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  #12  
Old 07-27-2002, 01:19 PM
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All the way in on the rack dampning bolt should prevent cold starts! You must either be missing a part of there is something wrong with the pump!

Peter
__________________
1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!
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  #13  
Old 07-29-2002, 04:39 PM
surfblau's Avatar
neue Dieseler
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
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so here is where I am

I took the injectors down to the local bosch shop and had them tested. All sprayed nicely and opened at the proper pressure.

The owner of the place drove a nice 80 or 81 CD. He said that shaking in the older engines is common and more pronouned in the turbos and most pronounced in the 5cyl.

When I asked about getting the pump tested or rebuilt, he indicated that it would be rare that there would be something wrong with the pump to the point that a rebuild would be needed. Even if he got it to work on the bench, he thought that the car still would rock.

So I ordered a pair of engine shocks for replacement this weekend, I can always return them if when I get down there, the originals are still good (which I doubt).

I opened up the delivery valves and flushed them before retorqueing the IP valve holders. I installed the injectors again, with new heat shields. Interestingly, injector #5 had two heat shields- one correct sized and one for an SDL???? This is not the first time that I have found strange repairs with this vehicle, like the time I took off the lower oil pan and found no gasket. I put all new heat shields in (only 5), installed the fuel pipes, and put on new return lines.

Now there is only minimal shaking at hot idle and almost none at cold. I will see if the shocks remove the last of the shake...


With regard to the IP valve seals, the picture above explains the retorque/no-retorque discussion above. I am getting shaking in OM617 that seems to have copper seals, my OM603 seems to have the "hard metal" seals that retorqueing would not help. By the way, nice engine- I wish mine were that clean. It looks like there is a lot less vacuum tubing (for emmissions system) than mine.
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84 300TD - 235k - Farbe "Surfblau" bought at 213k
87 300SDL - 131k - Farbe "PimpGold" bought at 115k
00 Klepper Faltboot Expedition Double

Last edited by surfblau; 07-30-2002 at 01:40 PM.
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  #14  
Old 07-29-2002, 06:02 PM
yel_low
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i have no emission system at all..


ive seen the same engine as i got with EGR and everything.. from -92 i think... there is a lot of "extra" for emission control
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  #15  
Old 08-04-2002, 12:20 AM
surfblau's Avatar
neue Dieseler
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco - immer kalt, immer windig, I want to move
Posts: 382
the current state of things = partially fixed

So I put in the new engine shocks, just because it seemed like the last thing to do short of putting the used IP in that I just bought on Ebay for $50.

And, surprisingly, the shocks helped quite a bit. The side to side shaking at hot idle seems to have been significantly reduced. The car is not as smooth as my SDL, but it is now very drivable and not at all annoying at a stop light.

The old shocks were pretty "grindy" and were pretty easy to compress with my thumb (equals not much dampening power). I am thinking that once the engine warmed up enough, so did the shocks, and they ceased to work.

I will see if the problem returns over the next couple of weeks. Hopefully, I won't have to put that IP in just yet.

thanks for your help
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