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  #16  
Old 11-06-2002, 06:46 PM
tvpierce's Avatar
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savagetom,

I'm wondering the same thing (which is one of the reasons for my post). I thought long and hard before I did this for the first time. I couldn't come up with any reason why anti-seize would cause a problem with a tapered joint -- but I'm very interested in the opinions of others on the board. I know we have some VERY experienced professional and amateur techs with signficiantly more experience than me. So I welcome anyone's input.

Jeff Pierce
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'85 Jeep CJ-7 w/ Fisher plow (226K miles)'93 Volvo 940 Turbo Wagon
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2002, 12:24 AM
tidawg
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Having worked on steering & suspension for many years I believe the taper on these items is called a "morris taper." The morris taper is a self locking union. I was always instructed not to lube the taper. The morris taper was a safe guard incase the castle nut or nylock nut should come off the joint would stay together. I have not ever seen this in print but was always instructed this way.
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  #18  
Old 11-07-2002, 08:31 AM
LarryBible
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"Morse" taper is used in machine tools such as lathes and other machine shop equipment. When used, there is rotation involved, thus no lubricant is desired.

Although the taper in the tie rod ends is very similar to Morse taper, it serves a much different purpose and anti-sieze is a good thing, provided the nut is properly tightened and pinned.

Have a great day,
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  #19  
Old 11-07-2002, 08:52 AM
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Morse Tapers

As Larry points out, a morse taper is used as a method of securing a tool into a rotating mandrel. The idea is that the fit of the taper prevents the tool rotating, but a relatively gentle shock along the axis of the taper should free off the tool. In this case you use no lubricant since this would promote the tool's rotation.

With a tie rod end or similar vehicle application, the rotational effect is less significant. If the taper on a tie rod does turn, then eventually this will wear the fitting, which you don't want, but it's not like it's mission critical! You are relying, in part, on the clamping action of the nut to increase the resistance to rotation of the taper. Thus, the lubricant effects of the anti-sieze are offset by the clamping.

I suspect that the most important effect of the anti-sieze in freeing off the joint is the corrosion inhibbition, not the lubrication.
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  #20  
Old 11-07-2002, 04:10 PM
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The more I think about, the less reason I see for a dry joint. As for rotational wear, I don't think this will happen since there is a ball joint right adjacent that is designed to rotate. I've got to believe a clamped joint would have enough friction to cause the rotation to take place at the ball joint.

I think the reason for the tapered joint is that it makes a joint that can't have side to side motion. If the had ajoint in which 2 flat pieces were joined by a bolt the clearance around the bolt would be availabe for movement. Alignment would change constantly. Other arrangement would be more complicated and larger than the tapered fit.

One arguement against never sieze is that the film could flow out over time and cause the joint to loosen.

I think I'll just follow the instructions and fight through the problems if I keep the car long enough to change them again.
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  #21  
Old 11-07-2002, 04:45 PM
moedip
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I would not use anti-seize. When the tapered shaft is tightened into the tapered socket by the nut - the tapered shaft is wedged in the socket to prevent it from turning and wearing the socket bigger from rotational movement if the tie rod starts to seize. While the nut will pull the shaft tight enough so the anti-seize will not be a factor in the shaft turning under normal conditions, in a couple of years when you go to loosen the nut - the antiseize will provide enough lubrication to cause the tapered shaft to turn in the socket as you attempt to loosen the torqued nut. Ever have this? I have. The tie rod tapered shaft turns in the socket and you cannot get the nut loose. If you are lucky - a pickle fork will provide enough tension on the tie rod to keep the shaft from turning - and if you are real lucky - you won't damage the tie rod end - that is unless you don't care because it is bad. If it is good and you want to save it and are removing it to gain access to another part - good luck with a shaft lubed with anti-sieze. I still say - leave 'em dry and use the right hammer to break them free - that is how they were designed and when you tighten the nut - use a torque wrench set to the proper setting. If they are real hard to break free - was the nut overtightened - "just to make sure"?
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  #22  
Old 11-08-2002, 12:41 PM
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moedip,

You bring up and interesting point about what could happen if a tie rod end begins to seize. I've never had that problem -- but it seems like that would only be a factor after severe failure. BTW: on the install, the joint doesn't slip at all when being torqued.
In the case of a loose joint, you might try tightening the nut first to draw the joint together, then loosen it. (Again, never had that problem, but it might work)

All said, I think I'll continue to use anti-seize -- it's never given me a lick of trouble, and its saved me lots of time and effort.

Jeff Pierce
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Current Vehicles:
'92 Mercedes 190E/2.3 (247K miles/my daily driver)
'93 Volvo 940 Turbo Wagon (263K miles/a family truckster with spunk)
'99 Kawasaki Concours
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Previous Vehicles:
'85 Jeep CJ-7 w/ Fisher plow (226K miles)'93 Volvo 940 Turbo Wagon
'53 Willys-Overland Pickup
'85 Honda 750F Interceptor
'93 Nissan Quest
'89 Toyota Camry Wagon
'89 Dodge Raider
'81 Honda CB 750F Super Sport
'88 Toyota Celica
'95 Toyota Tacoma
'74 Honda CB 550F
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  #23  
Old 11-08-2002, 01:00 PM
moedip
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We all work differently - which makes us individuals. Unfortunately, my luck is not good - heck I can't even win 5 bucks on the lottery!!! I have had a tie rod that spun in the socket on an old Jetta when I tried to remove the nut. The tie rod was so bad, there was no friction left inside it on the stem and the stem did not have enough grab in the socket to break the nut loose. In that situation - nothing worked and since I was changing the tie rod any way - I held the shaft steady with a wrench and hack sawed the stem off at the bottom above the nut. I guess chances are rare that it could happen - but with my luck it has. Different strokes for different folks - that's what makes this website so great!!!
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  #24  
Old 11-08-2002, 01:24 PM
LarryBible
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moedip,

Next time drive a pickle fork in the joint side and give the nut a quick yank. Once you start the nut moving, you may have to tighten the pickle fork as you loosen the nut.

Good luck,
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  #25  
Old 11-08-2002, 01:30 PM
moedip
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Larry - tried that - due to the condition of the tie rod - it did not work - and YES - truth is stranger than fiction - but that is what makes working on older cars so much "fun" at times!
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  #26  
Old 11-08-2002, 02:46 PM
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You may not have noticed but most of the tie rods I've worked on on Mercedes had allen sockets in the end of the tapered piece so that you could hold them steady when loosedning or tightening.

I say most because one aftermarket tie-rod didn't have the socket.
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2002, 05:42 PM
fredddd
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don't lube a tapered fitting

the lube makes the parts slide together so easy that the outer part may split. More common on older rear wheel hubs that slide on a taperd axle.
Like the saying goes,[BEEN THERE, DONE THAT]
Don
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