W210 Reliability and Cost of Maintenance
 

I have a '98 E320 and '01 SLK320, both of which I'm very happy with. I've maintained both cars very well. The E320 has about 65K miles. My goal was to keep the E320 at least to 150K miles. I'm not concerned about the SLK because it only has about 6K miles.

I'm starting to have my doubts about keeping the E320 because I'm afraid of the future cost of maintaining this vehicle. I know Mercedes quality has dropped over the years so I don't want this car to become a money pit.

The more I read on discussion boards about Mercedes cars, the more I'm becoming concerned about the future cost of maintenance. I do not service the cars myself.

What do you think? Is it worth the cost of maintenance owning a car like the '98 E320?

Thanks.

I recently did a pretty serious study on the cost of car ownership. Of course the big costs are the cost of money (no matter how you pay for it) and the cost for depreciation.

The cost of maintenance was pretty insignificant. For example, if you followed Lexus LS-430 maintenance recommendations to the letter, you are only talking about 4% of the total cost for 100K miles over a 10 year period.

In order to keep the cost of ownership as low as possible you need to do one of two things.

1) For short term ownership such as with a lease, buy a car with the best resale value.

2) If you really want to keep costs down, buy the most reliable cars, invest in good maintenance and run them into the ground.

The more frequently you switch cars, the more money you are going to spend.

If it makes you feel any better, I like to simplify things.
Look at it this way. As time goes on, and the car gets older, you may have a month were you spend $ 500.00 or even $ 1000.00 on repairs or maintenance items.
If you lease or purchase a new car, you will spend that same amount, month after month, after month. Gee, it seems to go on forever.:eek:
Besides, keeping a good car for 150 k miles does not seem unreasonable, especially if you take good care of it.
At least that's been my philosophy for the last 30 years, and I'd like to think I am " ahead of the game ", if there is such a thing.

Actually, the odds for your E320 making that 150K mark are really good. The M112 V-6 is turning out to be bulletproof, and in 2.6, 2.8 and 3.2L six cylinder versions, is WAY over-engineered for it's power output. I haven't heard anything about the 3.7L version, as it's new.

The 722.6 tranny has it's detractors, but overall it's also turning out to be tough as nails.

The AC system is the new variable compressor system as used in the C-Class, and it's turning out to be the most reliable AC system MB's have seen.

The soft spots are the electrics. Power gadgets are turning out to be unreliable, and could be the biggest source of headaches.

Also, the W210 cars have inferior suspension bushings, but the V-8 cars are more troublesome than V-6's. Also, keeping the stock wheel-tire combos help preserve the suspension bits.

Now, all that said, we sold our 1998 E300 due to it being a terribly unreliable car. But, the diesel cars seem MUCH more trouble prone that the gas cars. Most of the trouble we had was engine related.

There are some reasons that the MB might be not too tough onthe pocket book long term --
-- timing chains on the M112 are double row and should easily last that 150K.
-- The body structure of the W210 is not as sturdy as the W124, but better than most every other car. Out W210 car was tight and rattle free.
-- The performance capablity of the E320 is far below the chassis design. You're not stressing the car terribly.

I've met a few W210 owners with seriously high odo readings, and all seem pretty certain the car will last much longer...

Thanks for the great information. I've decided to keep the car. I'm not sure why, but it's hard to part with a Mercedes. I guess it comes down to the feeling that I really am driving one of the best cars on the road, so why replace it?

I drove a Lexus LS430 yesterday. Very nice car, but lacks the character and driver's involvement of the Mercedes.

I'm driving a 1998 210 chassis as well. It has 53K miles currently. I'll second everything John has written. My car has the diesel engine, and it's required a few repairs over the years. Based on reading this site, and others, for several years, the only problem I've ever heard of on the gasoline V6 is a few harmonic balancer problems. And it's an inexpensive and easy fix if caught before it completely fails.

In terms of the chassis, my car has required exactly one repair thus far - the CD changer croaked and was replaced. Everything else still works like the day it was new. Everything else is great. The A/C is among the best of any car I've ever experienced, and it gets lots of use here in Texas.

Suspension bushings may be a bit short lived on this car, but that's not a problem that will leave you on the side of the road. Nor is it all that expensive to repair.

A Lexus appears to be more expensive to own than an equivalent MB, simply because it depreciates much, much faster. Depreciation is the most significant ownership cost of an automobile.

- JimY

I have a 98 E320 with 82K miles. I have owned and maintained it since 60K miles. Other than fluid and filter changes, the only problems I had were the harmonic balancer failure and a sunroof which won't open fully.

I have read posts that window regulators are a common failure.

If you plan on keeping your car to 150K, some of the expensive maintenance items are:

Charcoal filter replacement (around 60K miles @ around $200).
Spark Plugs (100K miles or 4 years @ around $300).
Trans fluid and filter change (100K miles @ around $300).

The above costs are rough estimates, since I do my own maintenance I only know the parts pricing.

I plan to keep my E320 around for 300K miles and feel that at 150K miles the car is just starting to break in.

I feel that the cost of maintenance for the E320 is certainly worth it expecially when you consider the quaility of the ride you get.

FYI my 1988 Honda accord has been the cheapest car to maintain that I have owned - mainly due to the low cost of fluids/filters and parts.

What is the harmonic balancer failure and how can you help prevent it? I'm assuming it's some sort of shaft in the engine or thereabouts to make things run more smoothly, aka less vibration. If this is so, I can't see anyway to help prevent it from failing.

Thanks!

The harmonic balancer is the crankshaft pulley. It consists of an inter metal pulley, an outer metal ring with a rubber dampning ring between the two. This is to reduce vibrations as you concluded.

The eariler models with the V-6 engine (1998 and 1999?) were equipped with factory defective rubber dampning rings. The rubber ring would split causing the harmonic balancer to seperate. Since the failure occured after the factory warrantee expired the expense was the owner's. Mercedes has since modified the harmonic balancer to prevent premature failures.

The only way to prevent it from failing is to replace it before it fails.

If you contact your local Mercedes dealer with your model and vin #, they may be able to tell you if your harmonic balancer is equipped with the modified harmonic balancer.

Lemme see, m112 problems.

Balancer

Oil consumption (change the oil every 10k with mobil1, it'll be fine, every one I saw using oil was run on dino for the first 30-40k)

Some of 'em shed rubber off the countershaft (jackshaft) pulley, seems to be related to the dino oil thing.

Very sensitive to water in the fuel as they are "returnless" fuel systems. (the regulator and return is way back at the fuel filter)

Occasional oil leaks from the timing cover bolts, oil level sensors and sub pan.


I had one (and only one) that had been assembled at the factory with too much sealer in it, it was shedding and plugging the rocker shafts. (98 c280)


Overall pretty bullet proof car.

w210 issues in general

Rear window regulators.

Washer level sensors.

Switch groups (window switches)

Brake light switches

Evap temp sensors.

All and all the 98-00 210 car is among my favorite cars both to work on and lust after. (I drive this big Dodge diesel, cant keep a 124 wagon to save my life)

I see no reason a 210 shouldn't make the 300k mark with decent care and reasonable expense. As far as the 722.6 we recomend service intervals of 60K and stoping the car before changing directions ( as in with the brakes, not the trans)

On the subject of the Lexus, nice car, nowhere near the quality engineering of the Benz. (afterall at least most Benz products dont need thousand dollar IC's every 75k like most es300's) The maintence is also higher as you have a timing belt vs a chain, valve covers that leak into the plug wells requiring intake removal to replace, VERY expensive injection parts and more frequent service intervals. Not to mention the fast depreciation.


Joe

Joe, regarding your comments on the Lexus, what is an "IC"? Thanks.

Pretty sure 'IC' is Integrated Circuit and he's referring to a IC chip. Let's see if I'm right. :D

OK, I called a few dealerships because I got suspicious answers and it turns out that nearly every dealership gave me different information. Here's what I finally concluded is closest to the truth:

Originally on the W210 engine you got one of two part numbers for the harmonic balancer:

112 035 0000 or 112 035 0500

Then, both of those had replacements later on in the years:

112 035 0000 was replaced by 112 035 0600
and
112 035 0500 was replaced by 112 035 0900

Then, finally, both of the replacements were replaced by the current part:
112 035 0800

Can anyone verify this as correct?

Also, when I asked how likely failure was I got answers ranging from "None of the harmonic balancers are defective, they just changed the part numbers" to one dealership saying "Yes, you should replace it RIGHT now, this is very dangerous".

Again, can anyone add some sanity to this madness? ;) Thanks!

When my harmonic balancer went out the Parts person at the local Mercedes dealer told me that they were on the 5th revision for this part (which corresponds to the five part numbers you have listed). I was told that they had 3 in stock, when I went to pick up the part the had a 98 E320 in the bay with a bad harmonic balancer and found out that there 0 in stock (the computer didn't agree to what was on the shelf).

At this point I called Phil from PartsShop and had him send me one (PartsShop pricing was much cheaper).

If you would like to get an idea of how many harmonic balancers were replaced, I would talk to the Parts person and ask how many they sold over the last few years. It would be interesting to find out how many were sold at the dealer that claimed that "none of the harmonic balancers are defective".

What are the symptoms, signs, or noises that are related to the failure of the Harmonic Balencer? Thanks guys.

Paul
1999 E300D

part no.'s please...

IC refers to insurment cluster. Lexus dicided to go with these cute back lit needles and guages (sorta like the w220) unfortunatly, they fail, flicker, go out and sometimes go totally feet up.




M606 engines do not have balancer issues. So far, only 112's and 113's. You look for the rubber protruding from it and in some cases you'll see the outer ring has slid back.


Joe

Technique,

The part # for the latest harmonic balancer is what you have listed: 112 035 0800.

The only thing on my 606 engine that didn't seem failure prone!

What I am still trying to determine is if it's worth replacing pre-emptively. Seems like it's not a trivial thing to remove this pulley so I always like things assembled from the factory, instead of some local dealer mechanic who may be less than qualified...

Technique,

The risk is yours, I also have a problem replacing something which is not broken. I recommend that you closely inspect the rubber on the harmonic balancer. If you see the any crackes in the rubber it will fail soon. Mine went out at 78,600 miles.

In what order would you rate your 3 cars (Acura, Jaguar, Mercedes)?

Can I inspect the rubber simply by looking inside the engine compartment or do I have to remove the main engine fan to get a closer look?

My 3 cars... they are very different cars for different purposes... I really can't rank them together, it wouldn't be fair... I guess I'd have to rank them like this:

1) Acura - This car is my all-purpose car. When I say this, I don't mean it's my daily driver, although I do use it as a daily driver sometimes. It has the best (IMHO) nav system available and is great for going places new. It is the fastest and best handling of the three. I have spent about $3000 on wheel, tires, and sway bars for the car and it handles great, VERY confident and sticky in the corners. The car is not so expensive that I'm afraid to have a bunch of friends pile in and go out for a night of dinner and partying, etc... I can order some food at a drive-thru and eat in the car comfortably. And, for a total out the door cost of $32,000 I have a car with xenons, leather, 260hp, 6-CD in-dash, moonroof, DVD touchscreen nav, etc... basically every option is standard on the car for $32k AND I can use it for ANYTHING:
weekend driving, dinner dates, commuting, road trips, whathaveyou... I think this is pretty rare. PLUS, I can say that after over two years of ownership, and 50K miles, I have never had a SINGLE problem with this car. I change the oil every 15k miles with mobil1, and that's it.

2) Jaguar - Basically, the point of this car is for sunday driving and going to fancy restaurants and snobby affairs. It is the sexiest looking car I have seen in YEARS. I simply am in love with it. However, it's had SO MANY damn annoying problems (oil leaks, electrical failures, leaking antifreeze, etc...) that it has soured the experience for me. BUT, I will say that I am a VERY picky person and I find every little problem with my cars.

3) Mercedes - This is my daily driver, I use it for commuting. It's a sexy car, it is dependable, and it feels the most solid of the three cars that I own. I love the look of mercedes, I love the engineering behind mercedes (I was going to get a C32 back in late 2000 but they kept delaying the release and then kept delaying the COMAND system so I got my #2 choice, the Acura).

So anyway, if I am FORCED to rank them, that's my order, but honestly, my reasons for owning them are SO different, that it's really not fair to say the mercedes is "#3" or "last" simply because it's my daily driver and that the Acura is "#1" or "the best" simply because it's so versitile and reliable. There are times the Jaguar is "#1" to me and there are many times the Mercedes is "#1" to me.

Anyway, sorry for the long response but I had to be a bit verbose in my attempt to accurately convey my answer to your question!

Why is this so expensive? I know there are 12 of them, but still, I can do six of them for $15.

Mike

Technique,

It is possible to inspect the rubber by looking in the engine compartment - use a good light. Also check that the crankshaft pulley is not working its way back toward the engine. You can verify this by looking at the edge of the drive belt to see if it is worn.

Thank for the input on your three cars. I thought about replacing my Honda with an Acura but I am hooked on rear wheel drive. My wife likes the look of the Jaguar but the reliability is questionable as well as the amount of Ford components. I just might hold off until the price of the 2001-2003 C240's come down. If I had it my way I would own a 1996-1998 SL600.

Fahrgewehr,

I replaced the plugs myself and spent around $75 just on the plugs alone (OEM). I am guessing that the labor is around 1 to 1.5 hours since the plugs are not real easy to get at and after 100K miles/4 years the boots are "welded" to the plugs. I used dielectric grease when I replace mine so they will come off easy next time.

I think that the reliability is probably DUE to the number of ford components:D In seriousness though, has jaguar ever made a dependable car? I know the brits(though I love them to death) have difficulty making cars that don't have mechanical and especially electrically sound cars...Maybe it's just me though. They are some of the sexiest cars, but damned unreliable.

Agreed! Note my new signature, there should be a picture of the trio now. :D

4 year service for 98 E320
 

OK, I don't know if this deserves a new topic or not so I am just going to post it as a reply to this thread, if you guys think I should post a new topic, I'll do it.

Anyway, my car is a 1998 E320 with about 38k miles, I bought the car from the original owner who last took it in for service in November 2001 for its 28k mile service. I decided to do everything on my own and buy the parts from the dealership. The total for everything was around $190 in parts (pictures below with all the parts numbers clearly shown):

Windshield Wiper blade (full assembly) - $30
Oil Filter - $10
8 quarts mobil 1 Synthetic - $36
Air Filter - $20
Spark Plugs (12) - $90

I started with the windshield wiper blade:

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/e320_wipers.jpg

Which took 30 seconds to change, snap on, snap off. Next,

I did the air filter:

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/e320_airfilter.jpg

It was SO HORRIBLE and dirty. Look at all the pine needles (I removed the leaves before taking the picture):

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/e320_intake.jpg

So I vaccumed it out and installed the new air filter, total time was a little less than 5 minutes including the vaccuming. There are 6 clips that hold the airbox closed, very easy.

I did the oil next, using a pump I sucked the oil out according the the instructions in the DIY section of this forum. Total time was around 30 minutes for everything (mostly just waiting for the oil to come out):

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/e320_oilfilter.jpg

So with the oil done, I did a visual inspection of the Serpentine belt and Harmonic balancing pulley. Everything looked good but I decided to pick up a new one just to see the difference between the unit I have in my car and the "new" 5th revision part:

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/e320_harmonic.jpg

I told the dealership parts department what I was going to do and they were very cool and said I could return it if I didn't want to keep it. I noticed some design differences but I decided to save the $70 and leave the factory harmonic balancing pulley since it looks good (none of the symptoms described in this thread).

I was tired so I decided to wait a few minutes to do the spark plugs and I check the torque of the steering gear bolts and they were like 70nm so I figured that was good enough, I didn't tighten them or loosen them. This took perhaps 2 minutes.

So I finished off with the spark plugs, which were not that difficult to do, but it is a tight fit, so I spent about 25 minutes on them. Anyway, I reset the FSS according to the manual:

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/e320_reset.jpg

That's it. I hope this helps some people who want to save money (all this at the dealership would have been well over $500 and I paid less than $200).

This was what I call the "4 year" service for a low-milage car. Any comments are welcome. Cheers!

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/e320_parts.jpg

Have you considered a brake fluid flush & coolant change ? ;)

Actually, yes! :-)

Coolant:
The coolant was changed at 18,000 miles at the "B" service in mid-2000. So it's been around 3 years but I checked the coolant and it's clean and smells fine (no foul smell or rust particles whatsoever). It was at the "max" mark as well, so it was nice and full.

Brake Fluid:
I can't remember if this was changed or not but I think it was at the same "B" service at 18k miles. I checked the brake fluid anyway and it was clean as well and at the "max" mark.

I really don't think that coolant or brake fluid goes bad in just a few years. So, I think changing them at 3 and 2 year intervals, respectively, is not warranted unless the fluid is discolored or dirty. I will probably change everything at 50k miles/5 years, my next "service". What do you think?

It's not really important that your coolant and brake fluid look clean and full.

Mercedes requires coolant to be replaced at 3 year intervals.

Mercedes requires brake fluid to be replaced at 2 year intervals.

Coolant not only raise the boiling point and lowers the freezing point, but it also inhibits rust / corrosion. When coolant gets old, it loses its ability to prevent rust, and actually becomes corrosive.

Brake fluid loves to absorb water (hygoscopic ??). Water build-up in your brake fluid is a bad thing. It decrease your braking performance, it allows the fluid to heat up faster, and it could allow your broke cylinders to rust.

These are the only two maintenance items that occur in time intervals instead of mileage intervals, and they cannot be neglected.

OK, sounds fair. I will change the brake fluid and coolant, hopefully it's not too complicated. Can't be that different from any other car right?

One question though, how come in my Acura I don't have to change the coolant or brake fluid until 100,000 miles or 5 years? Is the fluid in Mercedes poor quality that the brake is gone after 2 years and the coolant after only 3?

suginami

Could'nt have said it better myself, but I didn't want to scare the crap out of the guy. ;)

I've always wondered the same thing. Mercedes has the most aggressive brake fluid replacement policy that I have always heard of. Every car I have ever owned has never recommended brake fluid replacement. I have done it anyway.

Regarding coolant replacement, I have always performed it annually, and I consider three years on the looooong side.

I know that GM, Acura and others have coolant with very long replacement intervals. I have heard up to ten years. I just don't feel comfortable with it.

I do know that Mercedes has the most complete and comprehensive maintenance schedule of practically any car on the road, which is surely one of the reasons why the cars hold up so well.

I would just trust the Mercedes engineers, and if they require coolant change intervals at three years, then that's what I feel comfortable following.

Your car has ABS, so I think it is different than what you're used to.

You might try the search function as this has been discussed before.

Thomaspin has done this on his 1990 560 SEL, which has ABS, and posted a DIY pictorial on his website:

www.pindelski.com

Technique,

For what ever reason Mercedes does not use the 5 year antifreeze. I don't know about the type of brake fluid that Acrua uses, but I have never heard of 5 year brake fluid. I just got into the habit of 3 year coolent changes and 2 year brake fluid changes. The coolent and brake fluid changes are similar to other makes of cars. I pull the drain plug on the engine to drain the coolent from the engine block.

Based on the recent maintenance you did, I recommend that the pollen filters (located behind the glove box) be replaced every 15K miles. I recently replace my pollen filters and at 15K miles they were dirty but not filthy dirty.

You can save more $ by ordering your parts through FastLane instead of the dealer.

Also Mercedes recommends replacing the fuel filter every 60K miles.

Ya, I actually changed the pollen filters in the glove box (both of them) the week I got the car. Guess I should have mentioned that. I posted that in the dust filter thread.

I guess I'll change the brake fluid and coolant, you guys have convinced me to listen to MB's 2 and 3 year rule, respectively. Thanks for the advice everyone, I'll post the results. I actually took a second look at the coolant and it is a tad brown.

I will buy the mercedes brand coolant and brake fluid and probably the pads for the front discs since I suspect they need replacing (might as well do it all at one right?). Hopefully the mercedes brand brake fluid and coolant isn't absurdly expensive... Oh, I get my parts at a 20% discount from the local dealership so that's why I don't order from fastlane, although I send my friends to fastlane since I can't get them my discount.

As far as the Acura, I believe the official (Honda) maintenance schedule says the antifreeze is 10 year/100,000miles and the brake fluid is 60,000 or 100,000 miles, no time specified. However, 5 years for each is what most dealers will do if you don't hit the miles first. Go figure...

suginami

FYI, my VW specified a brake fluid flush & fill every two years.
Don't know about BMW, but it would'nt surprise me if they require the same.
As far as 10 year coolant goes, I view this with the same scepticism as 100 k mile sparkplug changes.:eek:

There are sensors that indicate when the brake pads are worn. I believe that a message appears on the dash. Mercedes recommends replacing the sensors when replacing the brake pads (they are cheap to replace).

Ya, I'm in the same boat as you. Although I will say this, I checked my spark plugs at 38k on my acura and they are still clean and perfect, although I just can't fathom NOT replacing them once I hit 60k. I will say this, I think that many people prematurely replace parts on their new cars, although it doesn't really hurt, it's sorta like putting super unleaded gas in a car that only needs regular. What I'm referring to are people who change their spark plugs every 15k miles, etc...

On a similar note, I change the oil in my acura every 15k (honda recommends every 7500) with mobil 1, and it comes out clean and the filter is as well. I strongly suspect I could easily go 20k miles. I've even sent it in for chemical analysis once (costs less than $50) and the oil is still in great condition. I guess what I'm saying is I don't always take the owner's manual as the word of God, I tend to believe my own eyes over what's printed in a manual.

That being said, I believe you guys more than my own eyes cause I can't see water buildup in the brake fluid. ;)

technique, did you ever end up doing the coolant flush? i'm not to handy around the engine aby, but theres no way in hell i'm gonna pay someone to do something this simple. got a question for you if you did do it. is there a plug somewhere on the bottom of the radiator to flush ou the coolant, or should i use a topsider to suck it out?

and about this harmonic balancer issue, is it only for the v6 or are the v8 models affected also.

The harmonic balancer rubber problem is the same for V6's and V8's, and it also includes the 2.8 liter V6 in the C280 from 1998-on.

Benzmac started a thread on this the other day:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/tech-help/63512-crankshaft-balancer-failure-updated.html

I have not actually done the coolant flush yet, but I'll tell you how to do it. I checked this forum and looked at my car and there are two bolts to remove to drain.

Yes, you want to remove the drain plug on the radiator (as you suspected) AND you also want to remove the drain plug on the engine block which is on the passenger side under the exhaust manifold. This will ensure that you drain out ALL the old coolant.

I will probably do this by the end of the week and I can take some pictures if you want and post them.

I will also do the brake fluid change and perhaps even a brake pad change this week too(although there are already pics in the DIY section of the pads).

I must admit, mercedes is a pain in the ass to work on, but it has a strange rewarding feeling because the car is so solidly built it makes me feel good to know it has nice clean fluids and parts under the hood. I can't explain it...

OH, by the way, I didn't mention this in my write-up, but when I took the plugs out of the engine, they were difficult to remove from the boots and in fact, two of them BROKE in half. The plugs were right around 5 years old since the car was manufactured in Feb 98 and sold in June 98. So just under 5 years of use but over 5 years old. I will say that the electrode and plug itself were dirty, but still in good condition, they certainly could last 100,000 miles, but not more than 5-6 years...

OK, here are the pics to prove that I actually went out and took your collective advice:

I got part # Q-1-03-0002 Antifreeze
and also a jug of brake fluid part # 989-08-07-10

http://www.backwardshat.com/mb/brake_coolant.jpg

Total cost $20.00 with my discount at the dealership ($8.50 for coolant, $11.50 for brake fluid). Not bad I guess... I think it will be a decent amount of labor doing the brakes... The coolant change should be easier, just two drain plugs and a flush...

Thanks again for twisting my arm into buying the MB brand, I feel warm and fuzzy now. :D

Just to add a point or two.

The coolant lubricates the water pump. Changing it is so cheap and easy that it's something I do every year.

In the future you might want to compare dealer prices with various Web based parts suppliers or with Caliber Moters (1-800-252-6877) Caliber Motors is a MB dealer in California which sells parts at a good discount (for a dealer).

How long does it take you to change the coolant? I think I will stick with every 3 years. Or maybe, I'll do it every 2 years (at the same time I change the brake fluid).

I guess I'm just "new fashioned" and I don't believe in changing stuff too often (I changed the oil in my 1990 accord every 20k miles with mobil 1 and it was just fine when I sold it at 190k miles). Or maybe I'm just lazy, who knows... ;)

As far as prices, I checked the web and I believe $8.50 out the door at my delaer for the coolant is a great deal, but I'm not one to penny pinch, I generally just buy from wherever is closest/easiest. But I'll check caliber motors from now on as a point of reference. Thanks for the tip!