Fair AC recharge price?
 

Hi,

I am having trouble finding anyone who will recharge my r12 AC on my 88 190e. I did find that Pepboys will do it for $165, this is for leaktest and recharge of up to 24 ounces. Three questions.

1. Is this a fair price?
2. Will my system take more than 24 ounces?
3. Is is likely that there is a leak because the system needs a charge?


Thanks a lot.

Josh

Yes it is very likely that you have a leak, but if the car has NEVER been recharged, the possibility exists that it just leaked out over time. A one ounce per year leak would have leaked enough to render the system inoperative.

$165 sounds a little high, but if they are the only ones that will do it in your area, that probably explains a lot.

The main thing is that you are dilligent in looking for leaks, you don't want to do this again soon. It would be very good if they put in some UV dye so that if there is a leak then it will be easy to find.

Good luck,

Most establishments that still service R-12 are charging about 60 bucks a pound, and you have to add something for labor.

There is an A/C label on the radiator support that lists the capacity of the system. For my '88 190E 2.6 it is 1.0 kilograms, which is 2.2 pounds, or about 35.2 ounces. The vapor pressure of R-12 at room temperature is about 70 psi, so if the initial system pressure check shows less than about 70 psi, there is no liquid freon left in the system.

I believe EPA requirments require the licensed R-12 tech and establishment to check for leaks and not let the car leave with a R-12 charge if any leaks are found. They have to either repair the leak or evacuate the R-12 if the customer chooses not to have the leak repaired.

Whoever does the work, make it clear that you want recorded the initial system pressure and how much, if any, freon they recover from the system when it's evacuated.

Duke

No, the EPA doesn't care whether the system is leaking or not, doesn't require you to fix, and doesn't prevent you from topping up a system which leaks. There may be tighter local restrictions in place, and I wouldn't be surprised if So. Cal. was one of those places.

The price sounds awful high to me, but I haven't paid for a/c service in the last 10 years or so. And that's only for a pound and a half of R-12, less than half a full charge.

- JimY

Hi Duke

On this side of the Atlantic each kilogram is equivalent to 2.2 pounds!!

;)

Regards
NormanB

Hey, it's already time for my afternoon nap, and I haven't even had lunch yet. ;)

I went back and corrected my post. Thanks for pointing out the error.

Duke

Price update
 

:( Well I had to stop at pepboys on the way home to pick a few things up, and figured I would ask how much just to leak test the system. The guy told me $39 to leak test and $207 to recharge!! He told me I was misquoted over the phone the first time.

This makes me want to consider going to walmart and getting the 134a conversion. But the compressor is working and i see stuff through the site glass, not oil just some bubbles. And is ever so slightly cool, but by no means cold. So I would like to think that the system is semi-operable, perhaps just a very small leak as Larry had suggested. And I would just like to stay with the R12 after reading all the posts. I just cant help but think it may be less expensive to have the system leak tested and flushed and then I can take it from there with the kit.

Any thoughts?

Basic A/C service consists or evacuating the system and the equipment should measure and hold the amount of refrigerant that is removed. The vacuum pump should be kept running after the system has been pumped down to 1" Hg. or less for several minutes, then the pump is shut off and the vacuum should be observed for several minutes to see if it holds. This is one leak test. The high vacuum will cause moisture absorbed by the receiver/dryer to be purged from the system.

If the system holds a vacuum, which indicates there are no leaks, the refrigerant that was removed is reinstalled and fresh refrigerant is added to bring the system to the 2.2 pound capacity.

Once the system is full the system should be engaged while the tech uses the detector to check for leaks. It's also a good idea to ask them to install the leak check dye, which will show up under a black light for future leak detection.

If your system is just barely operating, the refrigerant charge is probably down to about one-half, so if the their basic A/C service as described above is 40 bucks, and they charge 60 bucks per pound for R-12, and you need about a pound, you should get out of there for a little over $100.

I've talked to a number of industry professionals - many at SEMA with companies that sell A/C servicing equipment - and every single one of them has recommended that I stay with R-12 as long as it is available.

Duke

I paid about $120 last fall for a recharge.

These prices are not out of line depending on the price of R-12 in your area. If your system is just low on R-12 have it charged up. The only time I recommend switching over to 134A is if the A/C system has a major failure, e.g. compressor seizes.

Be aware the EPA DOES care what happens to R-12. Should the technician find a leak and you decline to repair the shop is required by law to reclaim the system.

Fact of the matter is that ALL automotive A/C systems leak. There are too many moving parts, seals, hoses, fittings for them not to leak. :)

Here's the EPA's text (off their website, pulled 5/6/2003) regarding repair of leaks and topping off of leaking systems:

What are the leak repair requirements?
EPA regulations do not dictate any particular service, as long as a technician is certified to work with refrigerant and any recycling equipment he or she uses meets EPA standards. EPA does not require that leak repair be performed before refrigerant is charged into a vehicle, although certain states and localities may require such repair. In addition, EPA does not require that the refrigerant be evacuated and cleaned prior to recharging the system with refrigerant. In other words, EPA does not require evacuation and recharge, and does permit top-off with the same refrigerant, in motor vehicle air-conditioners. If you are unsure about any EPA regulations governing auto air-conditioning, call the Hotline number listed above.

Obviously, the EPA does not require leaking systems be reclaimed, essentially stealing refrigerant from the consumer. I don't know why any technician would say anything different.

- JimY

jrbnc,

Whatever you do, don't use one of the death kits from Wal Mart. If you insist on converting the system, do it right and flush the entire system and empty the refrigerant from the compressor, replace all o-rings with 134 compatible ones, replace the filter drier, evacuate and recharge.

The kit may get you cold air for awhile but it is eventual certain death for the system.

Good luck,

ThankYou
 

Thankyou everyone for all your input. The wealth of knowledge on this forum is spectacular!! I will weigh everything that was said and try to figure out what I will do before the hot weather is here.

A Few followup questions:

1. If I decide to convert, will a system flush by a shop clean out the compressor or does the compressor need to be removed to be evacuated of remaining fluid?

2. Would the following steps be the correct ones? Assuming the answer to the above question is that I wont need to remove the compressor.

a. Have system completely flushed.
b. Replace O-rings
c. Replace drier
d. Recharge with 134a

Thanks,

Josh

Some of the shops have machines that flush the entire system, but I know nothing about them or their use.

Typically flushing is done by disconnecting everything and flushing each hose and component individually, then ensuring that the flush is completely blown out of each piece. Then the compressor is removed and as much refrigerant as possible is poured out, then the correct amount of Ester oil is poured in the compressor and reinstalled. Once the system is reassembled, you turn the compressor several turns by hand to see that it is not liquid bound at startup.

Given all this falderol, you would be better served to simply repair your leak and recharge with R12. This, in most cases, is cheaper and the result will be an a/c with maximum cooling capacity.

Have a great day,

fyi...
 

After calling almost every shop in town, i found one who does r12 and they gave me the following qoute, so I decided I will try the pressure test with these folks and then based on what they say go from there.

Pressure test : $24.95
Charge : $39.95
R12 per pound : $35

They say I may need up to 2 pounds.

This is more in the ball park of what I was looking to pay, however I just hope there is not a large cost involved if they find a leak.

I have heard so many stories of bad outcomes with 134a conversions (even by 'pros'). I'm not saying it can't work, just that doing it right is often more complicated than advertised.
It would seem that many outfits are trading on a false public perception that has created something of a 'conversion industry'. Large amounts of money are changing hands, often for the wrong reasons.

Let's face it. There is more money to be made from expensive conversions, and the r12 they reclaim from your system has a market value, so they win twice. If the converted system melts down in a year or two, not their problem...

The cost/benefit analysis is out of whack when expensive retrofitting is done to save $80 on refrigerant. Sure, it will leak over time, but will a topoff every, say, 3-4 years break the bank?

I think part of the perception problem dates back to when the price for r12 was dramatically higher for a time, which may have been partly driven by speculators. Anyways, demand is predictibly down now. 10 years has elapsed, and there are fewer vehicles is operation that use r12. Many of the remainder have been converted. Appliance and industial users have converted.

Fed taxes are around $9 per pound now, and will climb $.45 every year forever, but hopefully the recycled supply will meet the smaller demand, and keep inflation fairly low for years to come, or at least until a better cooling technology is invented...

I used to buy 2 pounds of r12 for a dollar on sale in the '80s. Can you imagine?

Bottomline with any older Benz is the a/c is mediocre, so you have to keep it up if you live in a warm climate. I have had my 85 380se evacuated and charged once in the last three years and it still doesn't blow ice cold. The first guy I took it to said it leaked and wanted $400 minimum to repair. Second guy, who I trust a lot more said it didn't leak and evacuated and charged it for $120. It's still not ice cold. Luckily, there is an a/c shop in NYC all the taxis use that does the test for free and will do the charge on spec. If the system doesn't hold the charge and blow ice cold, it's free. Wish I knew that last year. When it comes to the remaining r-12, you're at their mercy for the price they charge.

My kingdom for the name/phone # for the NYC shop. Summer's comin' & a have an '87 & '91 300e with a/c that's worthless. Please...& Thanks.
Rich

System Charged
 

Good news and bad news?.....

I went to that shop this morning and they did the pressure test and found no leaks. But the system was almost a pound low. So he said he filled and the air was flowing at around 45 F. He said it would blow colder when on the road. Good news is it only cost me $60.

Bad news? ...I said great and then asked some questions about the r12. He told me he uses freeze 12. He says this is compatible with r12 and 134a. I wanted to just stay with the R12, thats what i thought I would be getting.

Two questions:

1. Does anyone know what i should expect from this "freeze 12" stuff? Good cooling? Failing System?

2. Is 45 degrees normal for air conditioning, with vehicle parked?


Thanks,

Josh

That is very unfortunate.

It is illegal to topoff an r-12 system with Freeze-12 (or anything other than r-12, for that matter). The system must be labeled as converted, and fit with the special SNAP Freeze-12 fittings. What you got was probably a full evacuation and recharge with Freeze-12, though $60 sounds low, even for that.

Freeze 12 is an r-134a blend with 80% r-134a, and it is said to be compatible with R-12 mineral oils due to additives. This compatibility is widely disputed, however, and may only really work well with specific types of mineral oil. Many who advocate the stuff still suggest a taking all of the steps one would for a r-134a conversion, including POE oil.

The other big 'claim to fame' is that Freeze-12 provides cooling characteristics more similar to r-12 (superior to r-134a), such that retrofitted systems will not lose their efficiency. This is also widely disputed.

It is said that the cutout pressure should be lower for Freeze-12 as well. The more you dig, the less of a 'drop in' it becomes...

While it is "EPA approved", the EPA SNAP approval process only considers environmental and health factors, not technical performance.

What you needed was a simple 1 pound topoff of r-12, perhaps $30-40 worth of gas.
I would be very unhappy if this happened to me.

Another problem with Freeze-12 is most A/C shops have Freon Identifiers to make sure the system is actually charged with either R12 or R134A. If impurities are found, most will either refues to service the system, or charge very high prices for the disposal of the contaminated freon. It can not be recycled in either a R12 or R134 equipment.
If one of these impurities is found, I will cost you 200 to 300 just to get the system cleaned out and then the repair and recharge.
My advice is DON'T let anyone put anything in your system except the real thing.

By the way, I get arguments about this, but just to convert a system, I evacuate, replace the dryer (not really necessary for the conversion, only a good practice), Hook up vacuum pump for 1 1/2 to 2 hours, turn off pump for 30 min, check for a leak of the vacuum and if all is OK turn the pump back on for 30 min, and charge with 134 using 85% of the R12 charge and add 2 oz of Ester oil and UV dye.
Did my 84 500 SEL this way 2 years ago, and get plenty of cold air hear NC. Did a friends 87 420 SEL 3 years ago with the same results. Have done many more cars and truck with equel sucess.
There are some GM and Fords which need the pressure cycling switch changed or adjusted, but any car with a real expansion valve doesn't need anything changed. I have had some Chrysler mini vans that cooled to good and I had to over charge them a little to raise the evaporator temperature.
I still believe, if the job is done correctly, almost any system will work just as well on R134 as it will on R12.

Just my $.01

Thanks again
 

Thanks again everyone for all the help and insight. It is unfortunate that my system is now contaminated. I will label it as such, so no recycling centers will be contaminated. I will also update this thread once we get a really good hot day, and let you all know how the system is holding up.

Thanks everyone.

Best Regards,

Josh