Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum > Technical Information and Support > Tech Help

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 05-30-2003, 05:45 PM
Bud
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Let me make something clear! GM, Ford and others are recommending lightweight oils because they have to. There is a law called the Moss/Magnesun Act that requires automakers to achieve a certain EPA gas mileage figure for the vehicles they manufacture. It's called Corporate Fuel Economy Averages.

Very large companies like GM play all kinds of games trying to keep their EPA mileage figures below a certain threshold in order to avoid gas guzzler taxes.

One thing they do is recommend very low visosity oil so that they can claim a few tenth's better mileage for the millions of cars they produce. These lightweight oils will not show much of a change in real world situations but they make a difference in the games these companies play with their CAFE averages.

As for GM engineers or Ford engineers or any other American car manufacturer's engineers, their goal isn't to produce world class products, their goal is to CUT COSTS!

Mercedes is pretty clear about what they recommend. Check this URL out:

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/oil.html

If you have a Mercedes with the FSS system, look for oil that meets MB specification 229.3. If you have an older car, use 229.3 or one that meets MB specification 229.1.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 05-30-2003, 06:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 1,006
Zafar,

MB and BMW still specify thicker oils than many manufacturers. BMW even formulated a special 10w-60 for their high performance M engines. MB current service literature supercedes all owner's manual and previous viscosity charts and oil specifications.

MB's highest rated oil currently is 229.5 (e.g. Mobil 1 SuperSyn 0w-40) for both gas and diesels. Other current specs are 229.3 and 229.1 (Mobil 1 SuperSyn 15w-50). If one cannot find an oil meeting MB specs, then MB recommends ACEA A3/B3 specs and failing that, the use of API Sx/CH-4 spec of an approved viscosity as a last resort.

I believe my 1987 owners manual allowed 5w-20 or 0w-20 - but only in arctic conditions. The current standards specifies higher viscosity oils such as 0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40, 15w-40, 15w-50. Where the 0w-40 and 5w-40 are "all season" oils.

I won't second guess the MB engineers as to their reasons for these viscosities. If you want to follow GM engineers, then drive a GM car.

Lube in peace,
__________________
Brian Toscano
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05-30-2003, 11:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 320
Bud,

Thanks for the info and md21722, you are right about the cost cutting. It is going on across the board in the automotive industry and even MB is not immune from it. Just look at the ML320, that's why I like my W124 over the majority of new vehicle offerings.
This is a timeless design when MB did not have much competition and just concentrated on making the best cars in the world.

I would like to add that I do have a GM vehicle, a 99 Pontiac Montana, it rattles and shakes, fit and finish is very poor, has a lot of design issues, but, it's ride is pretty smooth on the highway and quiet, engine has plenty of low end torque, gives good fuel economy and the transmission is not bad either. Has 100K major maint. and 150K on the coolant.

To satisfy my curiosity as an engineer, I will have to do more research on oil grades, maybe even talk to engineers at MB and/or some other automakers/suppliers.
__________________
Zafar
94 E320 58000 Miles

Last edited by zafarhayatkhan; 06-02-2003 at 01:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05-31-2003, 03:23 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 132
Some of you guys need to get with the times. High performance engine builders and race engineers all use 30wt or lower viscosity oils. Not to save money, but to win races and races can only be won if you finish.

So they are not going to risk there multi-million dollar budgets on a few bucks of oil. But these low viscosity oils due protect engine bearings and parts and due allow for decreased friction and more Hp.

So if Mercedes wants to spec 40wt oil great you old timers stick to it, spend more money on gas and feel good, but you are not doing any good for your engine, except maybe harm as the high viscosity oils take minutes to warm up and your engine parts are rubbing and creating high temps and increased wear.

Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 05-31-2003, 04:11 AM
haasman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,097
Wait ... yes the 40 and 50 weights are thicker, but they are also low temperature rated .... like the 30 weights ... thus the 0W or the 10W, the 15W .... this is all for cold starts.

Cold starting is not where the differences are. It is at high temperature applications.
__________________
'03 E320 Wagon-Sold
'95 E320 Wagon-Went to Ex
'93 190E 2.6-Wrecked
'91 300E-Went to Ex
'65 911 Coupe (#302580)

Last edited by haasman; 06-01-2003 at 01:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 06-01-2003, 01:09 AM
slowlane
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 198
Has anybody tried, or used an engine pre-luber? A few years ago I received info on one, I thought I would try it, but never got around to it. There is no question it would reduce greatly engine start-up wear, always wondered why they were never introduced on or used on the car engines by mfg.?
enjoy your drive, timreid
__________________
timreid
1992 400E
euro lights
500E sway bars
210 16in wheels
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 06-01-2003, 01:33 AM
1991300SEL's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 545
0W40, 5W20 - how much longer before we have 0W0 ?
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 08-08-2003, 03:44 PM
brookspw's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 551
Quote:
Originally posted by Jackd
I've been reading this tread for a few days now and as a retired tribologist, I admit having had a few laughters reading some of the posts.
''from christmas to easter i ran a valvoline 30 wt racing grade, for the rest of the year a valvoline 40 wt racing grade.''
Racing type engine is not suitable for normal road use. A racing oil is designed to be replaced after only a few hundred mile of racing and does bot contain the additive package necessary for normal street application. It has no or very little anti-acid additive, lots of anti-foaming additive and again very little ant-oxidation additive. Luckily, the engine survived, only proving the Mercedes engines are built Strong and certainly not because of the racing type oil.
After a change to synthetic oil, this comment: ''Remarkable difference. Engine is much smoother''. this is pure imagination. Synthetic had no built-in smoothness. Dyno or synthetic has nothing to do with engine smoothness.
''the chain tensioner probably got pumped up or cleaned out and the engine timing being improved.''
A timing problem has never been built into the capabilities of any oil. Again, pure imagination.
My best advise: Stick to the latest engine manufacturer's recommendations. Don't try to reinvent the wheel. The engine manufacturer, parts builders and oil companies have spent considerable amount of money, time and efforts to come up with their recommendations. Not too many people here (I included) have the knowledge and capacity to second guess them.
JackD
Proof that God does indeed own a Benz!



Just kidding.

Kind of
__________________
1994 C280, dark green metallic
105k miles

1991 190E 2.6, Black
191,500 miles
(sold to another forum member)

2003 Chevy Tahoe LT, Redfire Metallic
105k miles

1989 Mustang GT Cobra Convertible
43k miles
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-18-2003, 03:28 AM
Strider's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Washington
Posts: 83
Unhappy Don't think so

Quote:
Originally posted by speedybenz
Some of you guys need to get with the times. High performance engine builders and race engineers all use 30wt or lower viscosity oils. Not to save money, but to win races and races can only be won if you finish.

So they are not going to risk there multi-million dollar budgets on a few bucks of oil. But these low viscosity oils due protect engine bearings and parts and due allow for decreased friction and more Hp.

So if Mercedes wants to spec 40wt oil great you old timers stick to it, spend more money on gas and feel good, but you are not doing any good for your engine, except maybe harm as the high viscosity oils take minutes to warm up and your engine parts are rubbing and creating high temps and increased wear.

Jeff
Firstly, they also completely tear down and rebuild those engines after each and every race, sometimes after every couple of laps during qualification, and they go what, 500 miles in a race? (except the LaMons of course)

Higher viscosity oils will actually take the load in a journal bearing FASTER than a lower viscosity oil, and thus reduce the metal to metal contact time. In a journal bearing, such as cam bearings and mains, it is only the oil that takes the load, and there is no metal to metal contact anywhere....follow so far? The reason for this is due to the relative velocity between the two surfaces, bearing journal and bearing, and the viscosity (or resistance to shear loads) creating a normal force due to a pressure differential. Believe it or not, the very thin, microscopic layer of oil directly in contact with each surface, journal and bearing, has zero relative velocity to that surface, in other words, it is 'sticking' to that surface, so lets say the bearing is rotating at 900 rpm, the microscopic layer of oil in contact with the bearing is also moving at that 900 rpm rate, and the oil in contact with the journal has zero velocity. The relative velocity differential across the layer of oil (from 0 to 900 rpm, in a nearly linear rate), creates pressure that focuses inward away from the journal, which keeps the bearing centered within that journal always. The bearing diameter is ALWAYS smaller than the journal inner diameter right? That difference is called clearance.

That clearance is a "highly engineered" value, (read a couple of calcs performed to find an optimum value based on several inputs, mostly of fluid drag vs. wear) True, higher viscosity oils have more friction, but this friction is in the form of fluid drag, like the difference between swimming in water vs. molasses. So, you want the highest performance, use an air bearing. Pretty easy to design, and filtered air is always readily available and has an order of magnitude less drag right? The problem is starts and stops when the bearing surfaces contact.

Yes, you can design motor journal bearings with tighter clearances to use lower viscosity oils for less friction loss and thus some improved economy. The problem is that you sacrifice bearing life to do so. Through in some contamination and you really have decreased reliability.

The bearing clearances on the M103 engine in my 300E were not engineered for the 0W-40 type ultra low viscosity oils. I'll stick with the MB recommended viscosity oils for the temperature range I'm expecting to drive in, which right now is 30F to 85F, so I'm going to use some 10W-40 for my next oil change coming up in 500 miles. If you want to run your motor with these ultra low viscosity oils, be my guest, but I'd like to see your calculations first (I did DOZENS of these bearing calcs in my machine design and dynamics of machinery classes in college). Personally, I'd rather stick with the MB recommendations and get 300K + miles out of my engine. (Am I setting my standard too low? 500K?)

Mineral oil vs. Synthetic....hmm, normally I wouldn't touch this with a 20' pole due to the political ramifications

However....the two largest contributors to enginer wear are viscosity breakdown effects at cold starts (oil viscosity broken down, lower viscosity, therefore longer time of metal to metal contact during initial startup), and from contamination. Bulk contamination is trapped by the oil filter, but no filter can capture the other contamination, chemical. Combustion gases in the crankcase mix in the oil and create carbonic acids which eventually etch the metal surfaces...no oil, mineral or synthetic are immune to this, although some oil additives in both types are better at bufferring these acids. My personal choice is to use mineral oil and change it more often. The cost to benifit ratio doesn't play out with the double cost of synthetic for this reason.

HOWEVER...on my motorcycle (Kawasaki GPZ1100 with 11:1 compression and 120 HP, very fast) I have noticed a large improvement in shifting when using synthetic. Bear in mind that on most motorcycles the engine and transmission share the same oil. Motorcycle engines for this reason break down oil viscosities quicker than car engines do, and the synthetics definately hold up better....I still haven't bought into the motorcycle specific synthetic arguement though. (the claim being that car formulated oils contain friction modifiers that can contaminate wet clutch disks and cause clutch slippage....I haven't noticed any clutch slippage and tend to think that those riders who do probably either had a marginal clutch to begin with or are the type to fry their clutch trying to ride wheelies... )

BTW, my background? Mechanical engineer working at a nuclear power plant who's ridden motorcyles for 20 years now, and has been turning wrenches for about 25 years. Whew, long post.

Thanks,
J
__________________
On the plains of hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who at the dawn of victory, sat down to wait, and waiting -- died

Last edited by Strider; 10-18-2003 at 03:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-18-2003, 10:34 AM
Bud
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by speedybenz
Some of you guys need to get with the times. High performance engine builders and race engineers all use 30wt or lower viscosity oils. Not to save money, but to win races and races can only be won if you finish.

So they are not going to risk there multi-million dollar budgets on a few bucks of oil. But these low viscosity oils due protect engine bearings and parts and due allow for decreased friction and more Hp.

So if Mercedes wants to spec 40wt oil great you old timers stick to it, spend more money on gas and feel good, but you are not doing any good for your engine, except maybe harm as the high viscosity oils take minutes to warm up and your engine parts are rubbing and creating high temps and increased wear.

Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 10-18-2003, 12:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: PA
Posts: 5,440
Hassman,

Since the chain tensioner is on the back side of the cam gear, it doesn't affect cam timing except to keep it from jumping in multiples of 14 degrees.

P E H
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2011 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page