E420 Oil Tubes/Power Loss - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JimF · #16 06-12-2003, 11:18 AM

my experience with the 'tubes'. These are some things that I have observed in my car and the one other at my tech's shop.

1) the 'immediate' indication is the loss of oil pressure after the engine is warm: when cold, the pressure reads 3 bar; when warm (80C or greater), the pressure reads about 1.25 bar. Of course, this is stil close to Mercedes min spec, so you may not notice it. This drop is immediate whereas the following is not.

2) It appears that when a tube 'blows', it takes a few weeks before the lifter ticking starts. Also, you can 'stop' the ticking temporarily by forcing the car into high revs: use first gear at a stop and take to 4-5K rpm before shifting into 2 gear. Do that a couple times, and no more ticking for a day or so. Also taking it on the 'road' at 65-90 mph will quiet the ticking. This is not necessarily recommended!!!

Caps: I would think that they drain out during an oil change. Never personally seen one but since they are smaller than the drain oil, it seems logical.

-fad: look at my web page, Menu #19 and you can see that the 'caps' are pressed-in. After time, heat and oil pressure those tubes can (and do) blow out. Saw tubes on a '92 500SL and these are METAL with spring-loaded ball-bearing ends. NEVER fail. I'll bet they don't make those anymore. But they would fit??

PS: EMB had ALL tubes replaced with the METAL version described above. Definitely worth the price and good move.

Price: The wholesale price of the 'plastic' tube is apx $9.83. Mercedes of SD charges $13.94 over-the-counter.

Power: I never noticed any power loss but didn't have seven (7) blown tubes. Surprised that your car didn't exhibit multiple ticks.

I don't believe I commented on the power loss. But I do believe that with seven (7) tubes blown, it DEFINITELY could be the directly related to the tubes.

placo1: BION, my tech's car does the same thing: first start cold in the morning, it ticks for 5 seconds or so. Don't think it's tubes.

placo1 · #17 06-12-2003, 11:35 AM

Thank you Jim, your insight is truly appreciated.

I wasn't sure if it was the tubes either, I'm wondering if my oil check valve has a small leak which allows the top end to dry up. Something I will have to check into.

EMB

Please keep us posted with your results. I eventually want to replace all the oil tubes (Hopefully under warranty) and upgrade to the aluminum which makes much more sense. Nothing like a bulletproof M119

DR.DIESEL · #18 06-12-2003, 04:19 PM

The metal (good) tubes were used up until m.y. 95' I think.
96' and newer used the cheezy plastic ones. Their end plugs pop out for no good reason. I have done new 99's with less than 10k
and 96's with over 150k. There seems to be no consistant failure
time or miles. However, when I do one, I do them all. I doesn't
make sense to chance a second failure when you allready have the engine apart.
As far as ticking and rattling on start up, there was a bullitin back in 9/92 for leaking drain-back valves on 119.970,971,972,974,and 975. This caused the oil gallies to the cam-adjusters to leak down and have to re-prime on start up. I have seen mostly 500E's with
this issue but also 400E's, 500SL's, 400SE/L and 500SE/L's have popped up from time to time. These were primarily 1992 and 1993 cars.
The valve is in the oil filter housing and requires removing the filter housing to replace.
The repair kit is PN #119 184 01 30.
you will also need a filter housing gasket and a filter.
The oil bridges (connector tubes) are PN #119 180 02 66.

Hope this helps.
DR.DIESEL

P.s. If your V-8 rattles really bad on start-up, your chain is probably streched and slapping around in the timing case until the tensioner gets full oil pressure or you have a broken rail.
Either of these is a time-bomb. Get it checked out before it turns
into a $10,000.00 min repair job for a broken / jumped chain.

placo1 · #19 06-12-2003, 04:41 PM

DR. DIESEL,

Appreciate you taking the time to post this info, I wish I had learned this alot earlier, it would have saved me alot of worrying.

The diagnosis your giving for the leaky check valve sounds identical to what I'm hearing. Is this a DIY job that I can do in the middle of an oil change? Can you give me any tips on how to change the valve?

The first time I noticed the ticking I brought it to my mechanic. Timing chain was checked (no problem) and since the lifter noise is only heard on startup after the car has sat over a 1 week no noise was evident.

My car has 62K miles so I assume it doesn't need guides/rails or a chain yet.

DR.DIESEL · #20 06-12-2003, 06:05 PM

Well, any MB that sits over a week will tick a bit on start-up.
It is daily drivers that tick every day loudly or do it on a re-start after sitting for a few hours. That is not a normal condition of this
engine.
Ticking coming from cars that only come out on the weekend are pretty normal. Synthetic seems to make it worse.
I think synthetic bleeds by the check valve in the filter housing
after a few days.
I wouldn't worry unless your car does it every day.
Pulling the filter housing on a 500E is at least a 2 Advil job.
It is best done on a hoist but, ramps would work if you feel so inclined.
There are 3 long 6mm allen head bolts holding the housing on.
you also have to disconnect the line to the oil pressure sensor.
The valve and spring are in the back of the housing and held in by a spring clip.
Pretty basic stuff and should be ok for a D.I.Y.er.
Good luck.
DR.D

placo1 · #21 06-12-2003, 06:21 PM

Thanks Doc!

Hmmm I could just imagine the four letter words spewing out of my mouth and I try to fit my hands into that tight area!

I do use synthetic and noticed it got slightly worse when I changed to a lower viscosity oil (20W50 before, 10W40 Now) my mechanic said I worry too much and by the sounds of your reply I think he's right

.

Still it might be a worthy DIY when I have some free time to kill, parts are cheap enough.

Thanks again.

-fad · #22 06-13-2003, 11:56 AM

Thanks for the reference JimF

fyi-

'94 E500 (42.9k) sits in the garage .....regularly over 4 week periods of non use= no ticking on start-up. Oil? Penzoil LongLife 15w-40 (since new)/ 1500 mile change intervals

'02 C320 Sport Wagon (15k/ daily driver)= knocking/ticking noise every morning on start-up!

-fad

DR.DIESEL · #23 06-14-2003, 12:59 AM

All the new modular motors make some kind of noise on start up.
They don't have that spiffy cast iron block to conceal internal noises.

Like i said, the nosiy V-8's tended to be 90 to 93' series.
By 94' the updated parts were phased into production.
Penz 15-40 is good oil too! We use it in older hi-mile motors
and they seem to operate quieter.
DR.D

#24 06-15-2003, 09:37 PM

Well the results are in: My Benz is Back!! I've been driving it all weekend and it's like a brand new car. Not only has the ticking gone away, but it has MUCH more power than before. It's almost too responsive, if you can believe that. With first-gear start (S mode) the thing jumps off the line like a jackrabbit. I took a highway drive and got lots of tingly feelings in my groin as I jumped from 60 to 120 in a matter of a few seconds. What a machine...

An update on the cost. I have the paperwork right here.

Parts:
Valve Cover Gaskets: $80.00
Oil Tubes (Aluminum): $240.00 ($15 ea.)
Upper Rails (4): $30.00
Injection Cleaner: $70.00

Total Parts: $420.00

Labor:
Replace Connectors: $300.00
Injection Cleaning: $75

Total Labor: $375.00

Job total: $795.00

I also had the trans. serviced for $183.00 which seems reasonable. I think the power loss was definitely a result of the lack of oil pressure, but I was curious if anyone knows about a product called BG 44K. The mechanics left a tag saying that I needed to fill the tank immediately and that over the next 400 miles I would notice an improvement in power and fuel economy. Just wondering what this might be.

JimF · #25 06-16-2003, 10:33 AM

stuff also. When my 'tick-tick' started, I used it to see if it would 'fix' it. This is before I knew what was worng.

Here's a link: http://www.bgprod.com/bgconsumer/bgservices/44k.html

#26 06-16-2003, 06:43 PM

So this is just a fuel treatment? On the invoice for the repairs there was $75 in parts and $70 in labor for 'clean injection.' I was assuming that there was more to it than just a gas treatment. I'll have to ask the tech what that's about. I can't see paying someone $70 to pour a can of gas treatment in my tank!!

In any case, the car runs amazing. Drove it from L.A. to San Diego today and had a smile on my face the entire time!

Welp, I just called my tech. He said the treatment was a three part process that takes an hour of shop time and should be done once a year. Apparently the $70 'kit' includes a treatment that gets poured into the throttle body, a treatment that gets sucked in through a vacuum hose, and a treatment that goes in the gas tank. The gas treatment cleans the injectors and the catalyst, the vacuum hose treatment cleans carbon from the cylinders and valves, and the throttle body treatment cleans the intake and the catalyst.

JimF · #27 06-16-2003, 07:57 PM

Didn't mean to mislead you. I've used some of that 'stuff' in a tank of gas. Personally, I find TECHRON just as good.

If you poke around that link, you'll see that they have an injection cleaning 'machine' that cleans from the complete fuel injection system. My tech charges about the same.