Quality decline is becoming an issue.
 

I was surprised to see the write up a couple of months ago in Consumer Reports about new MB's; they pretty much tell you not to buy them based on the experience of a few thousand owners (number is no clear).
Today the LA Times makes reference to it:

"But maybe not everything. A cautionary note for would-be buyers: Strange things seem to be happening, quality-wise, at Mercedes. Consumer Reports said in its latest auto issue that the C-Class was "well below average" in reliability as reported by owner/subscribers in the magazine's annual survey. (The incredibly expensive S-Class line gets the same crummy rating.)

There's more: Mercedes fell to below average in J.D. Power's last survey of dependability over five years, which was issued in November. The carmaker was below average in customer satisfaction with servicing, according to another Power survey. Mercedes did, however, come in just above average in another more recent Power survey, measuring quality and customer satisfaction in the first three months of ownership. The average number of complaints increased from a year earlier."

It seems that one should look at 10 year old models.

Juan.

Owning the cars listed at the bottom of my post I;m afraid I have to agree. I was not happy with my 99 E300. It was a shop queen. I sold it for a few reasons. 1 its lack of reliability. 2 it was a shop queen. 3 I felt the payment was to much for its reliability. 4. I fly for American Airlines.
I love my 82 300TD and my 560 SL. And will keep those. But yes I have seen a real change in Mercedes in the last 23 years that I have owned them.

Dave

This is really nothing new. This issue has been addressed in the automotive engineering journals for at least a decade. For every new model coming out, Mercedes has been "improving" it's car line by adding goodies (luxury features and perceived safety features) in the form of more electronics, rather than improving the quality and reliability of existing componentry. Word on the street is that if you want a high end car, Lexus is a better buy for the money.

I had a rant on this forum a few months ago about all the goodies on cars. When I bought my used 95 E320 last year I noticed all the things that needed fixing were the convenience features (both electric headrests, mutiple problems with seatbelt presenter, electrohydraulic top, vanity lights, seat vacuum locks, headlight wipers, funky volume control on radio). The car owner not only has to shell out the money on a new car to have these features, but again to repair these features. Where is the "convenience"?? Plus there's a disturbing trend in the industry to design reliability to only meet the warranty period. After warranty you're on your own. It's no wonder that used cars are so incredibly cheap compared with new cars. The price disparity between new and old is considerably wider now than 20 years ago.

Unfortunately, I have to place most of the blame on the buying public. On average they are morons when it comes to auto ownership. They walk into a dealership and ooh and aah over all the goodies on the car they can impress their friends without any thought to the added complexity of the vehicle and repairability when the car is older. Mercedes wouldn't design in these features if the market didn't accept them. Even when my girlfriend was buying a new car I had to talk her out of many features that she felt she needed. (She has since put 100,000 miles on the vehicle with no repairs needed!)

It'll only get worse. The latest automotive engineering journals are now talking about installing sensors in side window tracks to prevent hand pinching by electric window regulators. I can just envision the added trips to the dealer because windows won't close! There's also talk about installing sensors to prevent stupid people from locking their kids in a hot car. This would be a design nightmare! For all you engine rebuilders you'll just love rebuilding engines that have variable compression. This design has an active system with an electronically controlled motor that drives a gear rack attached to the moveable crank main. It just may be on the market soon.

I think I'll hang on to my 71 Cutlass. It'll probably outlive all the cars being built today simply because it's easier to fix.

Going to have to agree and chime in as well...;)

I haven't been plagued with as many problems as some with the ML, and the issues I have with my W124 have too, been mostly electrical issues. Fortunately, it was a common MB platform and parts are relatively inexpensive.

As much as I drool over the R230, I find the R129 complicated enough, and woe to the R230 individual that eventually has to repair the "active" suspension. I believe someone on the forum attested to a bill of a few thousand dollars per wheel!

Stick your hand into the opening while the auto-up window feature on my 1998 C230 is working. The window stops. MB solved that problem with a "resistence" sensor that works very well.

Why I posted the comments from the LA Times.

Uno, this is the best MB forum and these are serious comments from serious sources that deserve some discussion. I, for one, have an 86, 300E with more than 240K approx. (my wife drives it to work) and I think about getting another one eventually. It make me wonder about buying an MB again. This 86 does 60- miles in third gear and if you do not pay attention and shift, you may stay in third as it does not vibrate at all; it requires you to pay attention, a thing of the past.

Dos, the gadget issue: it is like the cell phones today. They are not phones, they are toys or conversation pieces. MB looks at us from Germany and sizes us as a bunch of morons who want gadgets and are willing to pay for them and their repairs.

Three, by discussing these issues, their cost and their headaches, we help those who are not willing or capable to spend 40 K and laugh if we wasted the money. We sort of lay (lie?) it on the table so that they can make a thoughtful decision.

Now, if those expensive, repair prone late used models stay long enough on the dealer's lot, a msg gets through to the idiots who think we are idiots. It takes two three years but that is the way it works.

The so called marriage between the American driver and his car is no longer a marriage; it is an abusive relationship. May my 86 last another three years.

Best to all,

Juan.

I agree with all that have posted here. We are creating complicated peices of equipment. That means more things to break and more money to fix them. I intended to buy the 99 E300 and drive it until I retired in 2014. 15 years times 15,000 = 225,000 miles. Not unreasonable for a Mercedes Diesel. I have 265,000 on the SDL. I had to logically look at the amount of shop time this car was experiencing. Will it be reliable? I was not sure. I was also getting frustrated with how Mercedes was handling all the problems. I have a 82 300TD and its very reliable. My 88 Acura Legend was in the shop once, yes just once in 5 years. It had normal service and a dozen or so things that they had to look at while it was in for its service. But the car was not in the shop like the E300. My SL has not been in the shop like the E300. So I have tried to figure is it the complexity of the E300 or the reduction of quality service and building by Mercedes.
The whole issue was brought to a head with American Airlines almost declaring bankruptsy and the 23% pay cut we had to agree to. The E300 car payment sure did look like my Daughters tuition payment at Texas A & M. So the car is gone. Due to how I was treated at Mercedes I am afraid that the next car will be a Honda or Toyota product. Friends have both and have absolutely no problems with them.
I do intend to keep the 82 300TD and actually since I've been rebuilding it I'm really liking the way it looks and will do more to the car than just making it a daily driver. I waxed it and it came out very nice. Besides the AC system being completely rebuilt, with a parallel flow condensor. I will replace the carpet, A lot of the trim pieces, rebuild the wood trim, new rubber all around, Sheep skin covers. New headlight doors. Bead blast the wheels and repaint them. Over the next couple of years I will go through everthing in the car and enjoy it.
The SL that I will keep forever. And when it needs rebuilding I will consider that.

Any financial advisor will tell you that the cheapest way to own a car, which is a terrible investment, is to buy a 1 year old car and drive it for 10 years. Ive owned the 300TD for 13 years now. Maybe I'll drive the 300TD until I retire in 2014. It should have 400,000 miles by that time.

Are we as American consumers foolish car buyers. Hell yes. A car is an expresion of our ego. Many of us want that star on the hood. I live in a section of the DFW area the is loaded with Mercedes, BMW's, Lexus, Acura's and any and all kinds of SUV's. Those vehicle are purchased for the ego not the logical side of the brain. And that is what Mercedes is moving towards. They have lost the goal of a quality, finely engineered car to one of
" the latest" style. And I think the quality reports reflect this.
What a shame.
The car I now drool over is a 71 280SE cabriolet. I know I can work on it and it was built during the days of quality.

Now don't get me wrong. I love new technology especially in the airline business. An old Braniff pilot, Len Morgan, who wrote for Flying Magazine once had an article talking about the "good old days of aviation". Would you like them back? His answer was "hell no". And I have to agree. The glory days of DC3 Flying. But back then the engines failed quite often. No radar for thunderstorm avoidance. They actually strapped them selves in tight and flew through them. Something we would never think of today. A lot of people died back then because of the old technology.
Well when you look at modern cars of today they really do a great job. People are surviving crashes today that you would not 20 year ago. This is a technology that Mercedes and Volvo pioneered. So why isn't Mercedes the number one car in the Insurance Institute for Highwy Safetys test results or in the DOT's crash test program. Maybe they have lost sight as to what made them one of the best car manufactures. The modern technology has made cars where engines last longer, we travel faster and in more comfort. Think of the S class of the 60's and 70's. A Kia has more luxury extras today then those cars did. Not as solid but all the bells and whistles. But with all of this I still expect reliability in a car. And this is where I personally feel Mercedes has lost it. Market forces will cause Mercedes to correct this or they will fail as a auto manufacture. Time will tell.

Dave

It's the cup holders! Mercedes started downhill when they put cupholders in their cars.

At this point, I wouldn't own a new Benz. I'll wait another 8-10 years and let some other unsuspecting poor slob replace all the hi-tech crap that's going to fail. Then I may snag one.

Mercedes used to run a body style 9-10 years, now it's 5-6. Mercedes also had a uniqe look to them. You wouldn't mistake one for any other make. The new C coupe looks like a Honda Civic and last years E class looked like a Geo from the rear and the new one ain't much better, IMO.

I think Mercedes big mistake was forgetting who and what they were and tried to out Japaneese the Japaneese.

Blame it all on Chrysler, i noticed that now Chrysler is sharing Benz-bin parts, and the whole Chrysler mentality is spreading. It's a pity that Mercedes is now beaten in its own game.

"Blame it all on Chrysler" I disagree. This all started long before Chrysler came into the picture. It really started when Mercedes had a serious challenge from Lexus. When they first came out, the LS 400 was a fresh design that was smoother, quieter and required less maintainance. The real kicker was the LS 400 was $5-$7K less than a 300E and had a V-8 vs. a straight 6. After that, Mercedes had to find a way to be competetive. They strayed from their strengths, thus the slide.

IT is sad to read all these comments about MB, I was always convinced you could buy no finer automobile! I always said when I was a kid I was going to buy a NEW Mercedes some day when I could afford it. Well, that day finally came in 1999 and I bought a C280 Sport, actullay to replace my wife's car. (never buy a car for your wife that YOU like!) She HATED that C280, I thought it was a great car, untill the whole climate control system went out, thank God it was under warranty. She always said "it looks like a Honda to me!" Iwound up trading it in with only 7000mis. on it on new Pontiac Grand Am that she loved to death(her previous car was also a Grand Am)

Now, I have a 95 S420 I use as my driver and really love this car, but now it looks as though I have the dreaded A/C evaporator failure (another thread posted on board.) I have owned an 86 300E (3.0 liter) 81 380Sl, the C280 and S420. Looking back, the 380 was by far the better of the lot.

If or when I buy another driver, I will probably go back to a Ford product (Lincoln, Jaguar S-Type, etc.) My wife now has one of the new Thunderbirds, 2002 built on the Lincoln LS chassis, is a fine automobile.

From what I have been reading, BMW can't give away 740 and 750s that are out of warranty. The resale values are garbage because of the electrical problems BMWs develope. I think society is in too much of a rush and can't wait the 10+ years to fully appreciate the way a Benz was built. They want immediate "flash". Nothing these days is designed to be rebuilt, just out right replaced. I tend to agree with the statement that things seem to be design to last as long as the warranty, very much the way American cars are made. It seems the car companies are trying to out gizmo each other. Even if I were to win the lottery, I wouldn't buy anything newer than mid 90's. The solid feel and the heft of the doors and switches etc. is long gone. The weight of MB cars hasn't changed, they all still weight in the 3800+ lbs. range, but the cars themselves are lighter, hence the lost solid feel. What keeps the cars weighing as much as the past is all the electronic boxes and relays, which doesn't contribute anything to the solid feel of a car. You could take all the GPS/Nav sys. equipment, the ESP system, electronic this and electronic that, and stick it all in a Chevy Cavalier, but that doesn't make the car any better. I really wish there was a way to have MB read all these real world complaints versus controlled customer "focus groups".

Point is as these age grease gets hard, alignment chages tracks become less slick then it thinks a hand is in there when there is none and refuses to close

The 140 chassis S class has this anti-pinch protection as well. As a matter of fact ALL cars with an auto up feature for the windows has anti-pinch of some kind there are several different approaches to having this feature. Same thing with auto-close sunroofs. Not automatic open roofs or windows, just for the closing feature. In the case of 140 chassis, usually the window regulator will break long before the grease will harden up.


" Mercedes used to run a body style 9-10 years, now it's 5-6. "

Lots of manufacturers are able to turn out new models faster due to cad-cam, "virtual" crash testing, etc. The manufacturers realize that when a new model comes out, assuming it's not ugly as an Aztek, or a 7 series, etc, that sales will increase. Not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing. Good for them I guess.

As far as the "content" of the cars, the amount of "toys" present on them, what I believe has the most impact on this is not Daimler-Chrysler, but the tiny little division of Daimler-Chrysler called "MBUSA", heard of them? They spec out what they want to market in the US, and Daimler-Chrysler MAY have something to say about it, but by and large they will go along with what MBUSA wants produced. Obviously Daimler Chrysler does all the development work/ engineering on the cars. But say for example they (MBUSA) wanted brought to the US what amounts to a US legal E class taxi like in Europe (no power windows, no power door locks, MBTex seats, etc etc, just a bare bones E class), I bet they'd get it.
Probably still have a full set of airbags and a smartkey, becuase they consider some of this stuff as a "core" component, but it's MBUSA that really calls the shots on the "level" the cars are built to.

Gilly

A tepid review by the NY Times
 

The Times does not have outstanding auto reviewers but it carries weight when it come to influencing people with their evaluations.


"The C320 had the Comand system, an unimpressive trip computer that cost $2,125 and did away with what would have been a standard cassette player. It did not include a navigation system. I never did figure out all that the Comand system could do, nor did I need to.

Competitive all-wheel-drive wagons are the Audi A4 quattro, BMW 325xi Sports Wagon, the Volkswagen Passat 4Motion and two Volvos, the V70AWD and V70 XC. The fanciest Subaru wagon, the Outback L. L. Bean edition, is also competitive in features and price. Prices of well-equipped versions generally range from $33,000 to $38,000, though they can creep higher. The Mercedes C240 4Matic wagon can be sensibly optioned to about $38,000; the C320 is typically well over $40,000.

The Mercedes wagons are solidly built, nicely styled and perform as well as any car in their class. Still, they tend to be more expensive than competitors that do the same thing about as well." [end of the article]

BUSINESS | June 15, 2003
2003 Mercedes-Benz C-Class: New 4Matic in Mercedes Wagons

Rick, the real feedback Mercedes gets is at the dealerships where people buy the new products and where Mercedes makes its money from sales. Any questionaire I received from an auto manufacturer had to do with cars that were at most two years old. How can anybody possibly assess the quality of a car that is only two years old? It's rediculous. Even a Yugo can receive good marks after two years! To me the real assessment of a car's quality is after five or ten years.

I don't think the average new Mercedes buyer wrinkles his nose at all the gizmos because of the car's complexity and lack of easy repairability. I also wonder how long the average new Mercedes buyer hangs onto his car before trading (or selling). It would be interesting to take a poll, but I believe a lot of posters here are used car buyers such as myself. The sad fact is that we're a distinct group, and there's no incentive for Mercedes to cater to us. It sucks, but that's reality.

I hate to see so much Mercedes bashing in this thread - though much of it is deserved. After all, this problem pervades across all car lines today.

Kestas is right. MBUSA doesn't care about the guy who is dying for the company to build another 240D. They are after the yuppies in silicon valley who think they need a 350hp ML.


Now, the problem is not DBAG! It is the people who buy MB's in the US. You can still buy stripped E class diesels from Mercedes in most other countries, just not here. American car buyers just dont want that. They are image conscious. They want toys. They want luxury, not utility. They aren't true Mercedes enthusiasts, like most of us. MBUSA knows this and brings the appropriate cars over the pond.


THIS, is the problem. You dont believe me, just check out the options list on a german spec E class.

You still can buy the modern equivelant of the 240D! Just not here!

IF mercedes imported stripped E220 CDi E classes, we would all be happy with our non-gizmo new Mercedes.

Things are VERY different in Europe when it comes to MBZ. From color combinations to engine choices, it is almost as if they are a different car company in many respects. 6 speed manual 5 Cylinder CDi engine in a w211 car that gets 40mpg? With a red exterior and blue interior? You can order it in Germany. But not here!

Great, now I am all fired up.

Mike:D

A few comments, observations and some ramblings .....
 

With the “average” new car price above $26,000 that has over 3 miles of wiring, today’s cars are not the same as ten years ago. $26,000 is not even “near luxury” any more. As we all know, each year the “average complexity” of a car increases. The new 7 series BMWs have over 35 computers or more accurately, microprocessors that are networked. Fiber optic networks with data bus backbones are the only way to manage the volume of information contained within some new cars. It is the only way to support the abundance of functions and features that are provided.

As they say, in a previous life, I work for a German manufacturer. It is true that the importing countries determine the model mixes and options content, but it is the manufacturer that says what they are going to build.

The competition in the auto industry has broadened by more makes, brands, classes and features. It is almost impossible to find a car without AC. The features, functions and complexity must coexist.

The German auto industry has pioneered many of the systems and features commonly found on most cars today. Often their origins were mechanical with electronic assistance. Porsche’s 959 comes to mind.

In answer to when Mercedes (and other high-end luxury car owners) replace their vehicles, typically before the warranty is over OR before the lease term is over. A little over 50% of new Mercedes owners fall into this category. The higher the average price of a car the more often this is true. It is simply a function of disposable income and the inconvenience of a higher mileage/ potentially increasingly unreliable car. From the last information I read by the way, Mercedes and BMW owners do keep their cars longer than other luxury makes …. Part of the remaining 50% of owners.

Leasing has enabled more buyers into luxury cars than ever before. Leasing also has created a bloated used luxury market. Never before have their been so many off-lease vehicles in dealer’s lots. These inventories are expanding as well. It is uncommon for a used luxury car being sold by a new car dealership to not have both special financing AND warranties.

The luxury car market is driven by features enabled by a price point. Drive by wire, brake by wire, adaptive suspensions, anti-roll over devices, multi-zoned climate controls and GPS all can be supplied because of a supplier enabled industry. That industry is electronics. Microprocessors, semiconductors, sensors etc have all been supplied by the electronics industry at price points that enable these additional features to be offered by carmakers at an affordable combined price.

There is a limit, rationally; to how many different features any car can offer. Short of flying, cars are not going to get all THAT much faster, brake that much better, cool, entertain or coddle the passengers much more than is already provided. Yes, there will always be improvements to systems with smart and clever devices or attributes, but there is a limit. There will be a new interior, a thoughtfully implemented drive system, a clever suspension adaptation, but we are talking incremental refinements to a finite set of performance.

In my opinion, especially with Mercedes, for each model year, the finalization of the model run brings about the “best” of that series. We have all seen this discussed many times. The bugs have been worked out and corrected and the car seems perfected just as it is discontinued. This leaves owners with an incredibly strong perceived value. Don’t under estimate this, it is very important, in my opinion, to Mercedes. It must be since it is repeated over and over again, model series by model series.

I think a lot of us on this forum are psychologically imprinted with the concept of “the way they were made” and justifiably so. I remember the first Mercedes I drove extensively was a 1967 200. Four-cylinder, no AC or power windows, four doors and four speed. I drove the hell out of it and get this- I just serviced it….. I just serviced it. No problems ever. None. Tires, brake pads, one set of rotors. No shocks, no radiators, no alternators etc. Just serviced it.

My wish for Mercedes is to simplify. They are not going to de-content the cars, they have to stay feature competitive. My dream is for every system that is created and designed by Mercedes, that the engineers go back and re-design it again to reduce complexity and improve reliability. That this becomes their new corporate culture. My wish is that this becomes their obsession. That each part, which is a member of a system that provides a feature, is over analyzed to reduce complexity while providing outstanding reliability. If this were the engineering culture within Mercedes, they could charge whatever they want for a new car.

Historically, Mercedes were always sold at a premium but in return the buyer received a car that was “Engineered like no other car”:

-I would gladly trade a GPS system for an AC evaporator that didn’t fail, ever.
-I would quickly give up a multi-zoned climate control system for a radiator whose neck didn’t crack and fail.
-I would trade the self-closing doors for ones that have insulated sound deadening mats between the plastic vapor covers and the door panels.
-I would quickly surrender a complex anti-roll/dive electronic suspension system for the 5-link where the rubber components and shock absorbers have a minimum life of 200k miles.
-I’d love to exchange the brake by wire system for pads and rotors that last commonly over 100k miles.
-Hey, I will even take a dipstick over an electronic oil level sensor any day.

Sorry this is too long - My point is the value proposition: Mercedes historically has always prospered when there was a strong value.

Haasman

Keep it simple
 

haasman,

You are so right about "simplify". Part of the reason I love my 1995 E320 is that it seems simple compared to the newer cars and it is even missing some of the options that were available at the time my car was made. No heated seats, headlight washers, or remote door locks. I use my key to lock the car and I can open my trunk by just pressing the push-button release on the trunk. With my wife’s car, I have to go look inside the car to find out how to open the trunk or go ask her for the keys to push some button on the remote. Why did they make it hard to open the trunk? Certainly some of the electronics are OK. I like that the car lets me know when my brakes are worn or when things are out of whack with the engine, but I don’t need a computer to try to make it 2 degrees colder on the passenger side of the car. Some of the new stuff is just ridiculous. Sure enough my air conditioning broke, so I would love more effort devoted to making things that don’t break instead of adding more gadgets that will certainly break in the long run.

I am fixing the air conditioning and I will continue to fix things as they break in my marvelous automobile. I can’t imagine giving up my car for one of the newer models. In my mind, there is just no comparison.

I am all on board with the quality comments. Just a few points to make:

In 1995, my E320 cab stickered for $79,000. Today, the closest car is the CLK 320 convertible. I think they start around $50, 000 according to Car and Driver, July 2003. With MB at least, though we see diminished quality, we also see diminished price. This makes more cars available to the masses and increases the volume of sales for the dealers and manufacturer. The money is in the volume. For this I "blame?" DaimlerChrysler.

I don't know where I learned the term "planned obsolesence", but I see it around me every day. A light bulb can be made to last for years. I have 5000 hour bulbs all around the house that I bought from the blind industries. They cost more than regular bulbs, but last much longer and don't therefore have to be changed as often. But there is no sale at the grocery store. The bulb on my vent-a-hood is original equipment - 44 years!

So this quality issue is planned, not accidental. Lowering the quality lowers the price, thereby making the cars more accessible to the masses. More market share. More EPS for shareholders. More shareholders. Planned obsolesence gets you (them) back to the dealer more often for repairs, and eventually for the next car. New MBs are just as durable as any other "new" car now. They used to be much more so.

Actually, if you follow the pricing trend of MB cars over the years you'll find a couple of interesting trends. Prices started coming down when more luxury cars were entering the market - most notably the Lexus - providing competitive pressure. Also, back in 95 I believe the US Dollar was rather weak against the German Mark, requiring more dollars to buy German cars. It would be interesting to dig up the prices in German Marks for those examples you gave.

<<I don't know where I learned the term "planned obsolesence", but I see it around me every day. A light bulb can be made to last for years. >>

Actually, Planned Obsolesence is the act of a manufacturer making a product knowing full well that it will need replacement well before the quality/longevity factor due to technical advances or system/parts changes..
This happen regularly in the Electronics Industry..
Some of this stuff is obsolete on the drawing board, but they still make and sell it ..

Internet is amazing. The dollar would buy 1.40998 DM on 11/16/95. On Thursday last week, a dollar would buy 1.67473 DM. So rounding to the nearest thousand, $79,000 in '95 would equal 111,000 DM. Today it buys 132,000 DM.

Is this right? Is this interesting? Does this support or refute your post. Numbers I get, global economics are a little over my head.

Here's the link to the tables:

http://www.xe.com/ict/

95E320CAB and Kestas are on the right track. I looked at the window sticker from my '91 E300. It was a "base" model meaning the only add on was the paint. Sticker price, $47200. I looked up the MSRP on a '03 and it's $47670. Then I pulled ot the sticker for the '85 300D I used to have, MSRP, $34680. Mercedes had a 50% increase from '85-'91, but a 1% increase from '91-'03? Granted there is a significant difference between a 124 and a 123, but I think it shows a major shift in thinking.

Meanwhile, a Lexus LS 400 went from $42000 (est) in '91 to $55700 in '03. It appears Mercedes did make a decision to sell to the masses. The problem I see is they are no longer the value they once were.

I say that because my definition of value is, "when reality exceeds expectations". I think the majority of first time buyers think they are getting the fabled Mercedes reliability. They are not, therefore, they don't meet my definition.

To blame this on Chrysler is incorrect. This change in philosophy happerned years before Chrysler entered the picture. I do think however, Chrysler has benefitted greatly from their hooking up with MB. I own a PT Crusier and the build quality is outstanding. It's the first new car I've ever owned that hasn't had a single problem. It is interesting to note that PT's are built in Mexico. I'm told those jobs are so coveted that the employees know if they don't do good work, there's a long line outside of folks who'd love to take their place.

Hmm, sounds like the USA 70-80 years ago.

95E320CAB, thanks for digging up those numbers! Global economics isn't my strong point either. If I look at those numbers correctly, it supports my post and what my german friend told me about trade back then. But it doesn't account for the entire difference. The rest of the difference must be either increased competition in the luxury market or cost cutting by Mercedes.

It is much simpler than that. The E320 Cab is built on a much more expensive platform than the C-based CLK Cab. The 124 was one of the best built cars in the world and in crash tests performed better than the new 210.

It was much more competitive to develop a C-based Coupe and Cab than from the E-platform.

But; In Auto, Motor & Sport they just revealed a new E-Coupé with four doors(!), it will not be cheap I think. Coming up Dec 04.

Meanwhile we should stick to our well built 124 machines, even the design is coming back in fashion when all the bubble shaped cars disappears. If it wasn´t for the exhaust emission rules we could easely put in good old engines without all the electronics and run them forever...

L.

My '83 TD cost $34,612 in 1983. In today's dollars that is something like $65,000. I have a copy of the original invoice, thanks to MB. At the bottom of the invoice it shows what the dealer paid for the car, $27,606. That is a $7,000 profit for the dealer. One of the other ways MB has trimmed their prices is cutting this enormous profit margin the dealers were making. My '87 TD cost something in the neighborhood of $42,000. Just comparing the price of my '83 to '87, the price jumped $8,000 in just 4 years . Shortly after Acura, Lexus and Infinity came out, MB admitted that they were on their way to pricing themselves out of the market. It's another way of saying they were charging way too much for their cars. So they had to quickly back pedal to match the prices of the Japaneese cars. I think that Mercedes is now going down the same road that Jaguar did, selling cars based on a reputation from the past. People would get lured into a Jaguar based on the company's racing history and the elegant interiors. Over time people who knew the real story wouldn't tough a Jag with a ten foot poll. I am afraid MB may be going down the same road.

The intial W210 chassis cars performed as well as the W124, and were tested using more stringent methods. The 2000- W210 cars are some of the safest cars ever to roll down a road. The W203 C-Class is easily one of the safest cars EVER built, regardless of manufacturer.

It is a misnomer that older somehow means safer. Technology has been the driver behind safety, not the "strength" of the structure. People believe falsely that cars that don't show signs of damage in collisions are safe, and ones that crumple up are not. Completely the opposite.

In it's day, the W123 was one of the safest cars built. The same was true for the W124, and now the W211. Time has marched on, and technology has brought us safer cars. Crumple technology, better materials, and airbag/seatbelt tech have all worked to make cars safer.

It's pointless to compare the W220 to the W126 or the W140 or the W116. Why? We're not going to start building those old cars again. Mercedes' contemporary models should be compared to cars like BMW, Lexus, Acura, Infinity, and so on. That is the key! How do they stack up in relation to the alternatives?

BMW? Well, except for the aging 5-series, their product quality has been dropping in relation to non-German models, and word is also out.

Audi? Great looking cars with incredible interiors, but like Mercedes, they are beginning to earn a reputation for being service-seeking garage queens.

Lexus? Boring in my book, but people buy them. They have built a reputation for building high quality cars that deliver years of flawless service. Sales have been flat, thanks to:

Infinity? Idiotic product line and homely cars meant years and years of slow Infinity sales. The Q45 was the fastest depreciating car in the world, and people knew it. Somehow, they've come back in a big way. FWD is being phased out, and performance and value are the Infinity traits everyone is talking about. Style and value, baby.

Acura? The funny "not quite there" luxury car player. The RL never offered a V-8 or the panache of an E-Class or LS Lexus, but was lots less dough, too. Un-interesting "low end" Civic based products that are out of line for a "top line" brand. However, they also reinvented themselves after having Lexus hand them their hat, and the new TL is a raging sales success. The Acura quality rep seems intact despite some initial problems with the TL.

Right now, Mercedes has a very broad product line and many models. Rightly or not, their reputation for quality is flagging, and no one knows why. Is it picky consumers that take every flaw as a major manufacturing error? Is it products rushed to market? Is it shorter product life-cycles? Maybe even Mercedes execs don't know.

"It is a misnomer that older somehow means safer. Technology has been the driver behind safety, not the "strength" of the structure. People believe falsely that cars that don't show signs of damage in collisions are safe, and ones that crumple up are not. Completely the opposite."

Hmm, true but, a truck is always a truck...

The issue on W124 versus W210 was a hot one back then, because the factory statement was that the W210 was a lot safer than required in the German tests. But the press revealed that in the same test the W124 was even safer. Not stronger, but on average safer for the "dummie" inside.

Another testimony to the quality of W124 is that Taxi drivers in many European citys kept their cars for many years after W210 arrived. Some are actually still driving these old reliable cars!

This is what happens when you produce too good cars, so I doubt that the manufacturers want their cars to last forever...

A friend of mine was involved in a very serious collision involving his 1997 E320 and a fuller-than-full-size Dodge pick up. Carmen, his wife, and his two teen sons walked away from a severly crumpled E-Class Mercedes. The Dodge pick-up driver was severely injured, as the firewall in the footwell severed his leg. The rear seat passengers in the truck were also injured severely thanks to poor seatbelt design and lack of energy absorbtion.

The pick-up looked to be in much better condition that the Mercedes, as the Benz was folded all up around the passenger compartment. However, none of the passenger cell in the MB was compromised. In the truck, key areas of protection were lacking. The footwell gave way and the A-pillar and roof folded enough to cause intrusion in the passenger compartment. The truck had at least 2000lbs on the car, higher bumpers, and so on. It lost. Design and proper use of HSLA (high strength low alloy) steel won the day.

In the event of a rear-end collision, the Mercedes' have strong seatbacks designed to keep the occupants in the car. Most makes do not do this. The seatback gives way, and you go flying out the back window.

Ever take a close look at a Mercedes head rest? Adjustable fore/aft and up and down? Lots of padding? Notice many other cars flimsy POS headrests? That makes a HUGE difference! If you don't have your headrest adjusted properly, you're missing out on using one of the most effective pieces of protection in your car.

Take a look at MB's starting with the 201/124 cars. The huge pillars that run from the A into C pillars? Integrated roll bar system.

How about side impact protection? Legislation mandates that side-impact-beams be built into the passenger side onlt, as it receives a disproportionate number of side impacts. Mercedes? ALL doors. Did you know that MB added side impact beams years and years before they were required by law? Only Volvo and BMW did likewise.

On safety, Mercedes has not stood still. ABS, BAS, ESP, front/side/window airbags, better materials, better interiors, and so on. No matter about rattley sunroofs on CL230 cars, I still believe that Mercedes makes the safest cars made, period. There is no better combination of passive and active safety.

BLACKMERCEDES- You stated some poinant insight as to some of the other luxury cars, but I really wonder if we have to go with one of the "foreign" autos to get the what we want in an automobile. I would welcome your input (or anyone else who wishes to comment) on the following domestic product:

Lincoln LS
Lincoln Town Car
Jaguar S series (LS platform)
Cadillac
Audi A8 (oops!)
Ford Crown Victoria/Merc Grand marquis

All I really want in a car is a smooth ride, air and power assists, with lots of metal around me for protection.

With all the negative "press" the new Mercedes seem to be getting, what are you going to get if you lay out $300,000+ for the new Maybach?

Just want to make a point that the Town Car and Crown Vic's have exactly the same gas tanks as the Fords that have been involved in disasterous fires of police cars. Of course, Ford products have been noted for doing that all the way back to the Pinto.

As for reliability, we might be *****ing about new Mercedes but we're comparing them to other Mercedes, not American cars. In almost any long term reliability survey, American cars are consistantly at the bottom.

The guy that currently runs Chrysler said that the only way American cars can improve their resale value is to improve their quality.

OK,
In a collision there are so many parameters that we can agree on sitting in a Mercedes is one of the best options. And in America you are even safer in most cars than elsewhere since the reinforcements you mention are not always in place on other markets. And recalls in the US are not always mirrored on other markets either. Your aggressive and costly lawsuits keep the manufacturers perform better and earlier in the US than elsewhere!

On the quality decline I think the problems are transfered to the repair shops that has to be qualified and equipped in a pace they can not always live up to. And that is why we now trust our problems to our fellow MB-owners before we talk to the garage...

Many thanks for the best site at our service!!

L.

With all the negative "press" the new Mercedes seem to be getting, what are you going to get if you lay out $300,000+ for the new Maybach?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
What your are going to "get" is an owner who has way too much money and wants everyone to know it. The Maybach ranks right up there IMHO as one of the worst looking cars since the infamous Chevvy Caprice, the queen of all police departments' parking lots.

Quote"It would be interesting to dig up the prices in German Marks for those examples you gave."

The price of a E320 Cabriolet beginning August 1994 was 104,132.50 DM, starting in May 1995 it cost 106,720.00 DM.


Quote"Another testimony to the quality of W124 is that Taxi drivers in many European citys kept their cars for many years after W210 arrived. Some are actually still driving these old reliable cars!"

I think alot of taxi companies are like this. I know there are examples of taxi companies in the US and in other countries where new or "newish" vehicles are used, but by and large most taxi companies use older cars, such as here in the US where most taxis are former police crown vics and caprices. So I wouldn't be surprised to see German taxi drivers using 124's and 123's, and by now maybe early 210's.

Gilly

A spelling (or typing) mea culpa..
 

I posted the original msg about quality and MB.

Now I realize that I typed the main word in the subject wrong (left the 'a' out).

The punishment is long and persistent ; the damn typo repeats itself in my e-mail everytime the system notifies me that a new msg has been posted.

Can we correct that?

Juan

Last year we got addicted to "Amazing Race." I noticed that in Germany and Spain most of the taxi's they took (that were MB's) were W210's with diesel engines and roll up windows, cloth interiors, and manual HVAC controls.

Juan

Did yo try editing your original message? Clicking on the edit button?

Haasman

Either the forum moderator (Donnie) or the Webmaster will need to change that. You can go in and change it with the "edit" feature but it won't affect the actual name of the thread, just the first post. So when you are looking at the list of all the threads in the forum, it will still be wrong. Strange but true.
The moderator or webmaster will need to go into the "admin options" and select "edit thread" to change the name of the thread. I'm sure either one will be happy to change it.
I noticed the typo too, had to laugh. A typo in a quality concern thread, ha ha.
I'd do it myself, but I can only do that in my forum (The ML/GWagen/UNIMOG forum).

Gilly

i run a number of elderly benzes. 1986 560sel with 250k miles. a 1987 560sec with 80k miles. a 1979 6.9 with 50k miles. an e320cab with 10k miles. and recently added a 1997 s500c with 20k miles.

these cars live in a country county seat in the metropolitan houston area. they are rarely driven in start and stop fashion. they are always driven as fast as possible. driving them this way, i care that they be kept in virtually perfect mechanical condition. i do not stint on maintaining them mechanically as well as cosmetically.

had i not found a good independent mechanic and garage, i would have abandoned the benzes for more disposable vehicles. principally because the benz dealers began to lose interest in maintaining older benzes about 1995. the service directors explained it by saying that his shop was so overwhelmed by the newer models that the older cars just didn't get the attention.

my independent garage gives them attention. i consult on some technical issues where i ask him to do something he has not done before.

the560sec began to run funny over the last six months. sometimes rough idling. sometimes an inexplicable hesitation after cold starting in both drive or reverse. it was as if the car did not want to take the throttle. long and the short of it was tht the service records indicated the the car was still running the o.e. spark plugs, ignition leads, rotor, distributor cap.

a straightahead maintenance proposition. no peculiar electronics. simply the replacement of parts that were 16 years old.

that is what i like about these older cars. and besides, i think they look better than the new ones.

i think that the comments are correct about options available in the european market that are not available here. when i routinely traveled into europe, i marveled at the fact that mbusa forced its us customers to accept options that some percentage of the customers might have preffered to delete.

on the other hand, obviously there is a reliability factor that has been lowered at d-b since the chrysler acquisition. my two w126 cars were state of the art at the time: cruise control, climate control, suitably versatile seat controls, central locking, etc. i have never had a problem with any of these electrical functions.

the vickers power steering pump is a maintenance area that could have been ameliorated.

but by and large, these have been bullet proof vehicles that have caused me no maintenance mysteries.

in the 2 months that i have been driving the s500c, i have concluded that it is a more fragile vehicle. i love the way it runs. its suspension is superior to the w126's. but it has some weaknesses that i consider inexcusable for a vehicle of that original price tag and benz'es desire for excellence vis a vis lexus.

and even though this was a starmarked car, it may never see the dealer.evenfor a starmark problem. i just have no respect for the dealers and their service departments. they are negligent. probably because they are overwhelmed by the servicing of new cars under warranty. that is my friendly theory. it could be that they are just incompetent.

lastly, someone mentioned the current line of benz diesels. boy do i wish i could have one of them to euro specs. i rented a e270cdi in france last year. ran through many mountainous twisty bits. the compression braking and the slap shift tranny made it a great deal of fun. i especially enjoyed outrunning a new maserati whose brakes gave up shortly after he started trying to push me.

Albert Champion I have a question why would someon buy a Starmarked car which cost more because of the warranty and then not take advantage of the warranty? I'm sure you could have bought the same car for less without it from the dealer.
I would personally take advantage of every bit of the program.

Quote
"and even though this was a starmarked car, it may never see the dealer.evenfor a starmark problem"

My air conditioning is fixed, but wow!
 

Wow, the bill from the dealership was $879 to fix my air conditioning by replacing my expansion valve and my receiver dryer. Oh yes, I also had the oil changed. The valve was $47, the dryer was $136 and the R134 was $48, but there were a number of seals $22, the new charcoal filter $43, "switch seat" $39, "switch liqui" ? $42, and now they charge $90/hour for labor. Wow$$$, but I did get cold while driving home. Can you imagine how much it will cost if my evaporator goes bad?

My car looked so awesome when I went to pick up my car. The dealer has a brand new facility with 3 story ceilings and an automatic door that opens as you drive in to drop off your car or return the loaner vehicle. It is a spectacular new building with soaring ceilings, stone walls, tile floors, Starbucks coffee, and of course they have many millions of dollars worth of new cars lined up inside the building’s new show room. My car was just sitting there all shiny and clean and it was so perfect. My car truly is a match for those new machines and it may actually be a representative of cars that were made at the pinnacle of what Mercedes cars are known for. I was so happy to get my car back after driving that 2003 ML for 5 days. My car is magnificent!

No matter what breaks on my car, I will fix it because it will be worth it to be able to drive this amazing machine.

For what it's worth, this is from my local Star newsletter...

Best First-Quarter Ever

May/June 2003

Mercedes-Benz USA reported the best first-quarter in company history as sales of 19,837 new vehicles sold in March bround the first-quarter total to 51,577 - a 2.7 percent increase over last year.

I don't like the dealer attitude and am scared of the lack of quality, but it seems like they're doing something right. I personally would not buy a new MB, but lots of folks are.

The C230 and the E320 each have about five more years to depreciate, then I'll see about leasing a Toyota.

boy, do i think that i have a starmark story. long and the short of it is that a 12 month starmark warranty was included in the price. and the price was more than fair for the condition and the mileage of the car.

and i suppose that if i have a major problem, i might take it to the dealer. but so far, i have had so much waffling from the dealers and mbusa as to what is warranted that i am forced to say "to hell with them".

for instance, when i inspected the car when i first put a deposit down on it from m-b sanantonio[not where i live] it had been selected for starmarking but had yet to have been starmark examined.

several weeks later when i flew into sa so as to pick up the car, i found that the rear view mirror was floppy, would not hold its position. dealer had my money, it was 3pm on a friday, dealer said get it repaired and we shall reimburse you.

i assumed 35-100 adjustment. perhaps the sales personnel did as well.

much to my surprise, when i stopped into houston benz store, i learned that no adjustment was possible - the mirror would have to be replaced[approx $1000].

now the sa dealer pretended that they didn't know me.

coincidentally, i discovered that my mirror had a homelink system that did not support rolling codes. since i was anticipating a mirror replacement, i went to the local benz store to ask them if the pre-rolling code mirror could be replaced with its rolling code supersession. they didn't know but said that they would check with mbusa. for over 2 months, i have been stopping in every week for an answer - still no answer. no phone calls of mine returned by dealer service personnel.

and i knew this dealer from its origins. in fact, when bill pennel opened intercontinental motors, i was one of this first customers. and his people worked on my cars for 20 years. but then i discovered the conscientious independent garage. bye bye intercontinental motors.

sometime in the midst of all this, i received a letter from a mr paul juron, the director of the mbusa customer assistance center. it was a form letter with a form. but it said that if there were any special issues that required their prompt attention, to telephone or email. and i did that an sent a crr letter to mr juron.

no response.

no one would tell me if the mirror was entitled to a warrantee replacement.

to this day, no one has answered that question. however, today i did receive a free mirror from m-b sa. but only because they want to sell m-b parts to my independent garageman and he held their feet to the fire[i.e., you owe my client a mirror. furnish it and i shall continue to buy parts from you].

but other questions go unanswered from mbusa and their dealers concerning warranty questions[they go unanswered on this forum as well]. for instance, after i arrived home after picking up this car, none of the seatbacks would fold forward.

then the next day they would. then the passenger seat would and the driver's wouldn't. then vice versa. today, neither will fold forward.

is that a warranted repair? i cannot get an answer from m-b sa. nor from m-b nor th houston. nor mbusa cac. does that give me a warm and fuzzy feeling? no, it does not.

if m-b is not going to tell me if they are going to honor a warranty in advance of performing the work, then why would i drive 40 miles to have the work performed which may end up at my expense? aren't i better off to just write off the benz warranty and have the problem solved by a real pro? my independent garageman.

i would love to hear your answer. i think you know what mine is. m-b has become a rip-off operation. my mechanic is better and more honest than any of theirs.

I have a '98 E320 and 2001 SLK320. Both have been very good cars with few problems. The SLK's has never had a problem, although it has less than 7K miles.

However, I would not buy another Mercedes given the decreasing quality of these cars. When I look at the '03 E320, I see little styling distinction from other new MB models as well as other manufacturers. The interior looks and feels cheap. MBs are no longer are a good value. I would be upset if I were a new S class owner and people would mistake my car for an E Class. And the same for E Class owners vs. C Class owners. Again, little styling distinction. BMW may be way out there in styling lately, but at least their models have a distict personality.

However, a friend of mine is taking delivery of his '03 E320 this week. This is his second E320. He knows that quality has been going downhill, but doesn't care. He still wants the prestigous name, and if there are problems, the dealer will fix it under warranty. He replaces his cars every 3-4 years.

I can only keep my fingers crossed that my MBs continue to offer good service to me.

I have a '91 300E that is about as close to new condition as possible. I've just returned from a 4K trip driving long grades in 100+ heat. The car never missed a beat and used just slightly more than a quart of Mobil 1 15W-50 on the trip. I wish the car had more torque, a better HVAC system and different styling forward of the A Pillar. Other than that, I wished it handled like the last BMW 3-Series I owned.

I"ve been looking for a new car for months and simply cannot find anything that is significantly better than the 300E, not to mention that would justify spending 10's of thousands of dollars for.

The only car that really excites me is the BMW 5 Series but after doing some serious investigating, I've concluded that BMW's are no more reliable now than they were when I owned them in the past.

The LS-430 can be had for about the cost of a new E320 but they are too darned big and unexciting.

Mercedes quality may have fallen off but so have Lexus and other makes. I may simply keep on driving the 300E and pick up something like a RAV-4 as a daily driver.

I just did a head job/valve job myself on my 300e!
 

One of the reasons I did it was because I already decided to keep driving this vehicle a little bit longer and NOT to buy a newer Mercedes.
My 300e is relatively easy to work on to the point that I, as a DIY'er, can do a lot of the repairs needed myself. When I first got the vehicle, I took it to the stealership for repairs once or twice. They were BAD experiences. They were the last time they touched my car. Let's just say, they treat you different when you have an older MB...
On the other hand, I would not dream to do any major work on the new very complex MB's (or any new vehicle) that are in the market now.
When I get a new(er) vehicle, safety and reliability are major concerns.
Well, safety has improved on all vehicles, some even better than MB's, and based on current reliability and my experience with my local Stealership, my next vehicle will not be a MB.
My wife wants a ML but, with all the problems people had with these vehicles...NO way! Sadly, I am trying to talk her into a different brand of vehicle.

My W126 and W116 are looking better...
 

...every day!

It only takes a couple threads like this to make one realize why older MB's seem to appeal more to people who really love cars than to the swarm of mindless little e-consumers the educational system is putting out, in droves...

I don't have an options list in front of me but what do you think it costs to just put a sunroof and a navigation system on a new E-Class (Over $40 large and which doesn't come with a sunroof as standard equipment)?

Back-up protection, active suspension, cruise with collision avoidance, I-DRIVE on a BMW, ON-STAR, etc. Stuff I DON'T WANT AND DON'T EVER WANT TO PAY TO REPAIR when it goes bad, which it probably will. THOUSAND DOLLAR KEYS!:eek: