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  #16  
Old 07-09-2003, 01:04 PM
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jetforman, you talk about how it looks like owning a Mercedes, and I am talking about road behaviour and reliability, I gave you 2 german cars, both better than the E320. The W124 was a real Mercedes Benz and it was in production for many, many years.

The W210 had a beautiful and unique body design but was plagued since birth, see number of "updates" and/or "upgrades" they did with almost every part of it and it is out and replaced after 7 years.
Every second '96 or '97 had to have an "udated" head gasket replaced, almost every E-class has a vibrating steering wheel, almost every E-class had to have an "updated" AC compressor and switches replaced, the blower motor and the controller were not fitted so one had to replace both with the "updated" version, the coolant sensor and the washer fluid sensor on most of the M and E-class had to be "updated", the air intake is whisteling and on and on.
Why not the S-class, why not the C-class ???
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  #17  
Old 07-09-2003, 01:28 PM
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One thing I am wondering is how these Japanese car makers are able to make a more reliable car AND a cheaper car. I went on the MB website and the Lexus and Infiniti websites, and all comparable models were thousands, sometimes tens of thousands cheaper on the Jap side. Also, many fully optioned Jap models were cheaper than the base model MB counterparts. For example, the GS300 ranges from about 39 to 43 grand. The base E320 (W211) starts at 47 grand.

I agree, these Jap cars are about as exciting as a refridgerator, they're "just a car"...nothing more. I am still intrigued, however, how they can make a more reliable car much much cheaper. On the same token, you can't blame the average Joe for choosing one of these Jap cars for the same reasons.

Anyone care to enlighten me?
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  #18  
Old 07-09-2003, 01:47 PM
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As I was writing my last post, a few more came up and I want to comment on the whole issue of the 124 being a boat. I have a 126, and if the 124 is classified as a boat, mine is sure as hell also a boat.

Here's my point: The majority of MBs, most notably older ones, were not built to fly around skidpads, apexes and hairpins. This is the same as knocking a 911 for it's poor off road abilities or these Hummer H2 owners crying about poor fuel economy....no sh**, right??

When's the last time you heard, "Hey honey, I'm gonna take the ol' S-Class out today and hit a few curves in the canyon, be back in a couple hours."????

There's nothin wrong with throwing a set of springs and shocks on a Benz to tighten things up a little, but please keep in mind what this car (or any other car) was designed and built to do and keep your critisicms within those parameters.
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  #19  
Old 07-09-2003, 02:08 PM
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Point taken...I did however specifiy mostly older ones like the 124 and 126 for example....or most any with traditional coil/shock suspension. These cars with ABC are marvelous....but how many owners of these cars do you think actually make the tires do their work around a corner? I'd say the vast majority of new Benz owners are rich, decrepit old farts that do 55 on the highway as I have seen one too many times.

Best example: Going down the highway and things start slowing down, brake light domino effect going on, people start moving to the left.....get up to the problem: Old fart wearing a visor doing about 10 under the speed limit in a brand new metallic blue R129 SL600 (!) with polished 2 piece AMGs on it. Any idea how badly I wanted to choke this dude??
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  #20  
Old 07-09-2003, 02:32 PM
it leaks, its german
 
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Quote:
Have you driven the W220? In 500 or above form it would take a very serious driver in a 911 to shake the giant sedan.



S55 baby!

I think we set a record from the training center to the airport in one of those.


Personally I think the c220 (202) is the most reliable thing ma benz has bolted wheels in in several years but, I've not seen all these "problems" with the 210 cars ya'll are refering to. Shaking steering wheels and such. 104 engines leak, deal with it, better than rebuilding every 120K cause the thing gummed up and started useing oil like a fiend. (read early 112's and that beautiful v6 of toyotas) As far as 210 handlin' is concerned, which one is more forgiving? The 740i or the e430? I get the feeling recovering a 210 car would be easier than saving the 740 in a slide. (I've driven both, yep the 210 has a lot of body roll but, plenty of grunt in reserve) Ma Benz has a problem, period, if they address it, cool, if they dont, god help us when the 203's and 211's start falling out of warrenty.

My personal favorite benz's are the 124 wagons and the v8 140 cars. Ok, so the 140's eat evaps like tic-tacs, so what, its a small repair bill by percentage of the original cost of the car. Plus if I really hump I can have one in in time for lunch. I've been a dealer tech on Mazda, Toyota, VW, Buick and Benz. Personally I think the problems benz has aren't all that bad compared to the issues of the other manufacters. (lesee, 4 cly 626 autos dropping like flies, just out of warrenty, try swallowing a 3k repair on a 20k car, earlier v6 camrys knocking right off the truck, every ECC V 4 cly 626 with P0421 codes, constantly, 3rd gen RX7's killing motors in 80k, 2nd gen camrys with 30 amp a/c clutch draws, ever put a water pump on a LS400?, 3800 v6 buicks eating alternators like a junkie on crack, and the list goes on....... 4 figure repair bills on cars with MSRP's under 25K! ....rant off)

Comparing a Benz to a lexus is like comparing a Echo to a camry, other than both being cars, there are little to no simularitys. Comparing a BMW to a Lexus is the same deal. Its all about driving what you want and what you can afford! Period, and I've found most people can't afford a benz.




Ok, sorry about the rant but, god it chaps my ass when people make these lame comparisons.


Joe
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  #21  
Old 07-09-2003, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mbtjc
When's the last time you heard, "Hey honey, I'm gonna take the ol' S-Class out today and hit a few curves in the canyon, be back in a couple hours."????
Have you driven the W220? In 500 or above form it would take a very serious driver in a 911 to shake the giant sedan.
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  #22  
Old 07-09-2003, 03:38 PM
LarryBible
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mbtjc,

How the Japanese are able to make them more reliable and cheaper? Get a life!

When the Japs make a car that will go over a half million miles with one engine rebuild, a few clutches and normal maintenance items, call me. My 240D has done just that. The Japs can only dream of building such a car.

Have a great day,
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  #23  
Old 07-09-2003, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by joe p

Comparing a Benz to a lexus is like comparing a Echo to a camry, other than both being cars, there are little to no simularitys. Comparing a BMW to a Lexus is the same deal. Its all about driving what you want and what you can afford! Period, and I've found most people can't afford a benz.




Ok, sorry about the rant but, god it chaps my ass when people make these lame comparisons.
Joe
Oooookay but going back to the study, BMW does remarkably well in it. Explain that? Also the study is based on 3 year old cars no W124's, no 93 Camry's, no 240D's etc would make the study. That era has passed and Mercedes won it hands down. Its the current era I'm worried about.
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  #24  
Old 07-09-2003, 04:27 PM
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Lebenz,

Good point. I think we should compare a 386 with Desqview and QEMM to the latest and greatest Zillion GHz PC with XP.

Have a great day,
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  #25  
Old 07-09-2003, 04:35 PM
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These surveys always spark controversy.

Mercedes models always have problems early in the production runs.

Mercedes needs to change their corporate culture to fascination with reliability WITH increased simplicity. Right now it is business as usual: Add complexity each year to meet the escalating demands of luxury car contents and hope that the problems will be resolved through refinements through the life of the model.

Chrysler has told its suppliers they must have world prices . This on a cost only basis is a exercise in futility.

If Chrysler and MBZ do have superior design and manufacturing know how, then to make a better parts less costly can only be brought about through new and innovative design and manufacturing means. It means change: The vision to demonstrate how to do such conflicting criteria.
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  #26  
Old 07-09-2003, 06:00 PM
ede
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I must say this:this study is only for a 3 year period.Let's see what happens to the gmc and others in say 12years.That's when you begin to see the true genius in the benzes.Mercedes cars in germany do not have these problems as the US cars(I know this for a fact).The simple reason is that some of these new mercedes are made in the US,for the U.S market,e.g the ML.To balance out the price war in light of the new computer components experimental(but cheaper) materials are used off the factory floor in the U.S.As you replace these components your car will eventually outlast most others.It is ridiculous to think that other chrysler cars will rate higer than a mercedes in the long run just b/cos of a 3yr study.The truth is that when mercedes merged with chrysler ,mercedes cars built in the U.S had to be built using American auto manufacturing proccedures already in place which was a wide variance from the proccess in Germany.This was done b/cos of complicated bussiness guidlines of the merger.
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  #27  
Old 07-09-2003, 08:19 PM
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Just this afternoon I had coffee with a friend with a 1997 Lexus ES300 with 166,000 kilometers (103K-miles). He just got it back from the dealer after spending $3000 on "routine" work that consisted of replacing leaking cam seals, two struts that were totally shot, various other seals, a service (filters/fluids) and some $1300 for sludge problems. If you go through his time with the car, he's spent WAY more than I have on my 1998 C230 in both $$ and time keeping the car in perfect shape.

Now, he won't say a bad thing about the car. If you were to "survey" him, he'd tell you that his Lexus is the paragon of reliability and perfection. He simply pays the service tab at the end of the day and drives off in his seven year old "perfect" car.

Maybe we MB owners are just too picky?
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  #28  
Old 07-09-2003, 08:28 PM
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Or us MB owners, or enthusiasts, know what we are talking about. I
am convinced that the average "premium brand" Japanese car (ie Lexus) owner doesn't know an engine from a transmission.

Leaking cam seals....problem? what problem?
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  #29  
Old 07-09-2003, 10:22 PM
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Personally, I like to make my purchase decisions based on input from good mechanics, rather then some yuppie nimrod that has to drive the latest trend-machine & doesn't know how to check the oil on it.
Who is J.D. Powers anyway ? Any relation to Austin Powers ?
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  #30  
Old 07-09-2003, 11:31 PM
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Good discussion.

According to Auto Spies, MB may have actually heard the grumblings. Some of you may have already seen this, but this is what AS has reported:


"On a positive note, this will be the last Mercedes Benz car [CLK] designed to a budget. In order to achieve a fixed cost, corners were cut (current C and S classes are a prime example). Cheap materials in the area all drivers see the most - inside the car. From the forthcoming replacement S-Class, and on all subsequent models, the focus will be on quality, refinement and engineering."


Sounds good, but I will have to see it to believe it.
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