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  #31  
Old 07-10-2003, 12:42 AM
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Re: Good discussion.

Quote:
Originally posted by AWS
According to Auto Spies, MB may have actually heard the grumblings. Some of you may have already seen this, but this is what AS has reported:
Can you post the URL for Auto Spies?
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2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".
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  #32  
Old 07-10-2003, 01:22 AM
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http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/
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  #33  
Old 07-10-2003, 02:55 AM
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MBTJC, the reason for the difference in price of cars that you mentioned could be due to the possibility that Toyota has a higher production volume. The more examples of something that are produced the cheaper it becomes to produce therefore passing the savings down to the consumer.

TKAMIYA, you mentioned that toyota doesn't sell a mid-size sedan for around th 50 grand mark. Lexus is owned by toyota. Th es 300 is camry that has just a few more goodies than a camry. Correct me if I am wrong but the Toyota Avalon looks alot llike an LS430 in size and design aspects how much is an Avalon how much is the LS. The only reason I gave these examples to bring up the fact, or at least in my opinion if you share the chasis and many other parts of a car between two nameplates(Toyota and Lexus) and there is a considerable in price doesn't that mean you might be overpaying for a Lexus when all you might be getting is a over priced toyota. I am no way saying that the Lexus is a bad car. In my opinion my 2002 S430 with AMG kit and wheels is the best car ever, I love it.



Also on 7-7-03 my first child was born at 6:01 p.m.
Now my Wife and I have a wonderful baby boy.

For everyone that thinks an S-class is plowing pig of a car, my 430 has bitten many sportscar drivers in th rear bumper and left them eating my dust. And no not everyone is a Mercedes enthusiast, but we must remeber they have a right to have the newest car with all the gadgets. And for everybody who thinks it is stupid of these people to dump their cars every three years, just remember they were the ones who felt that losing all that money to depreciaction was worth it to them, because they made themselves content with having what they wanted. If those guys didn't get rid of those cars and take that hit then those people who buy used wouldn't save all that money. OK I have been up for 3 days straight now and I am no longer making any sense to myself with what I am typing. I go sleep now.
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  #34  
Old 07-10-2003, 08:17 AM
LarryBible
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ede,

You make a great point. For those who drive a car 3 to 5 years and do not exceed 100,000 miles there's a totally different set of parameters than for the person who drives it 12 years and 300,000 miles plus.

tkamiya,

Toyota DOES build $50,000 cars, they even build them more expensive than that. You can find them easily. Look in your Yellow Pages for your Lexus dealer.

Have a great day,
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  #35  
Old 07-10-2003, 10:28 AM
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Just a minor disagreement.....I'd say the ES compares to the C, the GS to the E. Engines and prices are much closer and I have seen the E and GS tested together in comparos in C&D and MT.
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  #36  
Old 07-10-2003, 11:31 AM
LarryBible
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tkamiya,

400,000km is only about 250,000 miles. With absolutely minimal maintenance 250,000 miles is a cake walk for any MB I've ever seen, even a carbureted one. For that matter most of the mainstream Toyotas of today will do this. Toyota IMHO is the best Jap car for long term durability and reliability. My wifes 4Runner is running up on to 150,000 miles with an absolute minimum of trouble along the way. In fact the only problem that I can lay off on Toyota is that the expansion valve closed up. It cost about $40, plus some 134, some oil and about an hour and a half to replace in the driveway. Now that is minimal corrective maintenance for 150,000 miles. Even with that track record, however, it doesn't approach a 240D.

Even with the current models, most any MB's will go 250,000 miles albeit with some failures of the gadgetry. The Lexus gadgetry will be no difference.

Have a great day,
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  #37  
Old 07-10-2003, 12:11 PM
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Someone commented the 'maybe we benz owners are just too picky...'

I HAVE put a lot more time and money into our 190E than the Accord, and much of it has been stuff other than just to keep it running down the road. Fact is, the Accord needs new motor mounts, the injectors are probably not well balanced anymore, steering is a bit notchy, and the driver's door seal is noisier than it used to be. I'm fine with all that, because the difference in this car due to those shortcomings is not that much.

I replaced lots of stuff like that in the Benz, because it makes a real difference. At its best, this is a much more refined and pleasant car than the Accord, and there is the incentive. As a bonus - whatever you think about design issues - function for function the parts for this Benz have been much cheaper than those for the Honda. Double incentive.

Now, this may only peripherally apply to the original concern about new Benzes. Sorry, I'm not one who spends $60k+ on cars - my priorities are different. Still, ten years down the line, if I can pick up an '02 E320 for about the same price as an '04 Accord V6 (thank YOU depreciation), I know whatever I put into it will compensate me with an enjoyable car to drive for another decade or so.

Steve
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  #38  
Old 07-10-2003, 01:02 PM
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Tkamiya: E class is more along the lines in category of the GS models. Now my next point I am noty completely sure of but I have a friend that sold Lexus cars for a few years, now he sells benz even he told me that benz is a longer lasting carand that people in many cases spent more money on service of a lexus than mercedes when compared to how much the car cost. I would like to know if we compare a standard S430 to a Ls 430, how much a price difference would there be. I am sorry to hear that so many of your friends are unsatisfied with their benzes. Just out of curiosity how many of them had personal experience with an MB prior to the current vehicle. Personally, I have noticed that the car market has changed dramatically. Back in the day you could find a car you liked and could accomodate your needs in almost any price range, now days it seems that if you want a car to accomodate your needs either you are coming out pocket like crazy, or your buying an SUV. The funny thing is I have three vehicles all which serve a specific need. Out of all three one is a true necessity, because my oldest vehicle which is 18 yrs old pays for both of my vehicles which were bought this year . BTW the old timer is a dodge cargo van, go figure.

Let us all remember that everyone here is entitled to their opinion. Can't we all just get along! Remember we don't have to like someones opinion, but they still have aright to it!
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  #39  
Old 07-10-2003, 01:25 PM
LarryBible
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I don't think that anyone here is disrespecting the other persons opinion, they are only responding to that opinion with their own.

By and large I think we get along quite well here at mshop.

Have a great day,
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  #40  
Old 07-10-2003, 05:16 PM
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My 94 E320 has required more unscheduled maintenance than vehicles I have owned from other manufactures.

My 2000 Nissan Maxima from 232 to 29000 miles required no unscheduled maintenance except rotors. My 1989 Mitsubishi Galant required minor unscheduled maintenance from 86000 to 156000 miles. Even my 98 Pontiac Montana did not require any critical unscheduled maintenance in 20000 miles.

In 10,000 miles of driving, I have concluded that MB is an overpriced, overrated car with mediocre engineering.

From the placement of the AC Evaporator to the obsessive use of vacuum, MB engineers do not seem to be aware of design for manufacturing and ease of maintenance. To replace the Aux fans, the radiator has to be removed!

Interior volume compared to car size leaves a lot to be desired. In over hundred years of automotive experience, they were unable to figure out engine cooling system and alternator capacities. MB states that in loaded cars, in hilly areas and high temperatures, with AC, the engine cooling system will exceed its design limits. Unacceptable for a car that calims "Engineered like no other", but Ford's "Quality is Job one" is not any more accurate.

They failed to learn that Testing and Development has to be done before components are put into production, like head gaskets and wiring harnesses.

The single wiper arm has a hard time keeping water off the windshield and transmission leaves a little to be desired.

A slightly different perspective!

I will add that I like the E320's ride, its straight line stability, 50/50 weight distribution, comfortable seats (very well designed), inline 6 engine and NVH control except for some roadnoise in rainy condition form the rear wheel wells. Low wind noise levels. So MB engineers did get somethings right during the 100 years!!

One final coment in defence of German and US automakers, the Japanese consumer is extremely picky, they actually look the vehicle over, from body gaps to seals, they demand perfection, some even take their shoes off when sitting in the car, unlike US and German consumers who just start the car, move the shifter to D and drive. So maybe the US and German automakers never felt the need to pay too much attention to details, especially MB, where 70% of the consumers do not keep their cars for more than 50000 miles and get all the service done at the dealerships. Ironically, the Japanese consumer does not keep his/her car for more than a few years, although the cars are designed for a far longer life.

tkamiya,

In Japan (many years back) I noticed that cars had side rear view mirrors on the hood, is it beacuse of the narrow streets or just a trend?
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Last edited by zafarhayatkhan; 07-13-2003 at 10:21 PM.
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  #41  
Old 07-10-2003, 07:52 PM
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I wish my W124 approached Technical perfection; I would have kept it for many years to come.

Technical Perfection would include perfection in design and manufacturing. It follows that a technically perfect car would also have ease of ownership, along with anything else you may think of like ride, handling, comfort, durability, reliability etc. Well designed components do not fail easily!!

I am a mechanical engineer and one can design anything but unless it is manufactured to the design specifications, it will not function like it is supposed to. I always thought that MB's were designed like no other car. With fewer budgetary constraints, it would have been easier for MB design teams to avoid compromises and strive towards perfection and excellence.

Toyota builds economical, reliable and dependable cars. US manufacturers build large inexpensive car, loaded with features. MB is a status symbol around the world and many world leaders use it as the official car but as far as engineering excellence is concerned, MB has not achieved it.

Maybe my expectations were too high, but I have not found MB to be technically too different from other cars. I see the same design compromises to make the product more economical as the other manufacturers. MB does seem to introduce new technologies, without extensive testing which is not a good engineering practice.
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  #42  
Old 07-10-2003, 09:10 PM
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I'm glad that people don't get offended easily here on the shop forum. I have had a bad experience on another forum where I stated that I was extremely satisfied with my MB and it became a real ugly ordeal. I have actually been reading posts for a few months now and I really like the fact everyone is helpful. It honestly feels like a real car club in a way. I am a member of a benz club, and honestly I have gone to one function in the last year and a half. The reason being the overall feel wasn't that of a club, it felt more like an excuse for a bunch of uptight people to get together, very little talk regarding the cars at all. Also it looks as though I am one of the youngest members in that organization in this chapter. On top of all that I was trying to be polite and introduce myself and my wife and people were not to friendly. So thank you to everyone on the shop.

I kinda think that the overall build quality of all manufacturers has suffered. I had a new Jeep grand Cherokee loved it until it when into service within the first few weeks, and it seemed many times it was something really stupid that went wrong. Anyway got to go baby is crying, and gotta take out the trash and go to the drug store
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  #43  
Old 07-11-2003, 10:28 AM
Manya
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Quote:
Originally posted by dkarp
The W210 had a beautiful and unique body design but was plagued since birth, see number of "updates" and/or "upgrades" they did with almost every part of it and it is out and replaced after 7 years.
Every second '96 or '97 had to have an "udated" head gasket replaced, almost every E-class has a vibrating steering wheel, almost every E-class had to have an "updated" AC compressor and switches replaced, the blower motor and the controller were not fitted so one had to replace both with the "updated" version, the coolant sensor and the washer fluid sensor on most of the M and E-class had to be "updated", the air intake is whisteling and on and on.
Why not the S-class, why not the C-class ???
Holy crap. that's not owning a car, that's owning a computer with wheels!

A friend of mines 1988 holden commodore (australian car, nissian engine) is sitting outside my house right now cause we can't get the bastard to start. No bloody spark and we've replaced half of the ignition componets. Only thing I mutter is "why did they put computers in cars"

Last edited by Manya; 07-11-2003 at 10:45 AM.
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  #44  
Old 07-11-2003, 10:45 AM
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J. D. Powers Surveys Questionable

Every time I see a survey result such as J D Powers, I really question its legitimacy. You may say I am skeptical, but I look at this one and see only 55,000 surveys were recorded for ALL vehicle brands and models. Is this a legitimate statistical survey?

You also must consider the types of people that respond to such surveys. They typically are people who are fanatic about their vehicles, do not look at them at just transportation, and also have become irritated about some problem they have had. The more expensive the vehicle, the more irritated they become over some very minor squeak, rattle or imperfection.

Those of us who own Mercedes Benz automobiles know we buy them for the way they drive, their safety (both passive and active), their prestige (even when they are 20 years old) and the ability to get replacement parts over the counter when they are 25 years old (try that with an asian make).

Talk to a technician about the repairs on some of these trouble-free models and you will find that they are not as trouble-free as these surveys seem to reflect. I love those bright and beautiful instrument displays on the Lexus but they are prone to burn-out at $1.000 repair/replacement per instrument control. This compares to replacing a instrument cluster light bulb on a Mercedes. Try replacing the spark plugs along the firewall of a Lexus RX300 - you have to loosen the engine mounts and tip the engine forward. The list goes on.

One way I judge a brand is how a vehicle looks and stands up long term. I do not mean 3 years but 10, 15 even 20 years down the road. Look at some of those Lexus and Infiniti brands after that time period and you will see what I mean (if you can even find a Lexus or Infiniti after 15 years).

Well it is time to get off my soap-box and say sorry for the long post. Once you have driven a Mercedes it is hard to drive another brand -- it is that kind of driving experience. My wife says she would rather drive a used Mercedes that a new anything else. For those who need and apprecriate Mercedes lifetime roadside assistance program (even if you are not the original owner) that provides help in changing a tire, jump-starts and gas if you run out on a sign-and-drive basis, no other brand comes close.

When you look and consider the "total package" that a Merdedes Benz provides there is no reason to be driving anything else.

BenzBob
You can drive a car or you can drive a Benz, a car for a few years - a Benz for a lifetime.

1995 C280 - 78.000 miles
2000 ML320 - 37,000 miles
2003 C230K Coupe - 6,500 miles
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  #45  
Old 07-11-2003, 11:21 AM
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Preach on brotha! Great post!
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Dad bought it new, now I own it.

"A Mercedes-Benz is like a fine wine, it only gets better with age."
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