2003 C230K Woes - What Has Happened to MB Reliability?
 

Monday evening my wife was driving her 2003 C230K (with just under 20,000 miles on the odometer) when all of a sudden all the dash lights lit up and the display read "Stop Engine Now" and then displayed an engine temperature of 120 C. She pulled the vehicle into the nearest area where she could stop and called me. She indicated the car was making some clanking noises but did not know what was wrong. I told her to call 1-800-4mercedes and a tow truck came out in an hour to transport the vehicle to the nearest MB dealer.

Yesterday, the MB service advisor informed me that one of the V-belt pulleys had come apart causing the V-belt to come off. Another pulley was damaged during this event and he indicated that some temperature sensor in front of the radiator would also need to be replaced. They did not have the parts and would need to be overnight shipped from Texas so the car would not be ready until Wednesday afternoon. I am not sure what pulley came apart and the service advisor did not seem to be too experienced or informed. Does this vehicle also have a crankshaft balancer that could come apart? I cannot imagine any pulley, idler pulley or crankshaft balancer failing within 20,000 miles!

The reason I purchase new cars and Mercedes for my wife is for safety and reliability. In the future, it appears as though I will need to look beyond Mercedes in my next purchase decision as I no longer feel confident in driving this vehicle on trips out of town. Some on this forum (and even in corporate Mercedes) feel that the electronic gremlins are what is really hurting Mercedes quality and reliability ratings. If they cannot manufacture reliable pulleys, idler pulleys and crankshaft balancers, how do they expect to get the high-tech electronics right?

As some of you know, I also own a 2000 ML320 where the front wheel bearings, seals on the transfer case, idler pulley, crankshaft balancer, brake light switch, power window switch module, mass air flow meter, catalytic converter and a host of other repairs where needed within the first 40,000 miles on the odometer.

I also have a 1995 C280 that gives me none of these problems. You better believe I will be hanging onto this one for some time to come. Sorry for the long post, but I just needed to do some venting on the lack of quality the current Mercedes Benz products demonstrate.

I feel ya. Electronic gremlins and the usual Mercedes suspects are one thing, but catastrophic hardware failure? Sounds like DaimlerChrysler supplier cost-cutting to me. That's just not Mercedes.

Interestingly, my grandmother informed me last weekend that after another week in the shop, her 2003 E320 still surges and lulls under normal driving. It's been doing this since new with no resolution. Like you, Bob, I have a 202 model (97 c230), and I smiled because mine is more reliable than any of the family's 00-03 models.

Here We Go Again With Crankshaft Balancers!
 

Talked to my MB Service Department today and only half the parts ordered were sent so we will have to wait another day to get the car back.

The 1.8L engine in the C230K employs a crankshaft pulley (harmonic balancer) that looks like a "Hockey Puck" according to the service writer and is made from hard rubber. It has a groove for the serpentine belt to run around it. The service writer indicated that the belt came off of the pulley, got wrapped around it and damaged the pulley along with several other sensors in the engine compartment.

What makes me more concerned is that this failure has occurred with less than 20,000 miles on the odometer and the dealer indicates that they have had several other occurrences like mine. I have lost confidence in this vehicle and overall in Mercedes. You would think they would have learned from the balancers employed on their V-6 engines but instead have come out with even a cheaper design for their 1.8 L four cylinder.

Seems to me that they could spend a little more on quality parts that would be more than offset by the savings in warranty repairs.

Re: Here We Go Again With Crankshaft Balancers!
 

Yikes Bob. I just bought a new 2004. Not very reassuring when the dealer tells you that they've seen this several times. But I still don't understand how the belt came off the pulley. Did the pulley fail or was it the belt? -Norm

I definitely understand your disappointment. In June 2000 I was in Germany and drove a 203 that was just introduced in Europe. In September I bought one of the first to hit the US. A month later the company I worked for hit hard times and started the long slow slide downhill until I finally found myself unemployed late last year.

I struggled through all that and held onto the car and had kept the mileage down because I was afraid that I would have to sell it. Then I started experiencing all sorts of gremlins.

I finally got rid of it about a month ago after some serious electronic gremlins and a broken window riser.

I expect that the pendulum will come back in 6 or 8 years and they will make a good reliable car again.

Best of luck,

Best of luck with the car. At least your wife stayed safe when the engine went; that's what's important.

Is there a way to examine this evil V-belt pulley to see if it's defective and ready to fly apart? Different revisions of this pulley?

Based upon what the service advisor told me he indicated the belt came off the pulley. When that happened, the engine pulley kept turning and the belt wrapped itself around the engine pulley damaging the hard rubber "hockey puck" pulley and also damaging several electrical sensors. I am not sure if any other damage has resulted since until we get replacement parts installed they have not tried restarting the engine. Based upon the dash display, we know the engine temperature hit and went beyond 120 C. This was probably due to no coolant flow due to the water pump not turning.

I told the service advisor that if Mercedes would spend a few more cents on the parts it would be more cost effective than paying for all the warranty repairs not to mention customer satisfaction with their product. He agreed and indicated that he sees many older Mercedes products coming into the dealership for regular service with 150,000 to 200,000 miles with very few problems while he has new Mercedes products with 10,000 miles on them that have tons of problems.

Up till now everyone has been complaining about the crankshaft balancers that are on Mercedes V-6 engines and could not understand why this part was not made to last. At least this part has a metal inner and outer cylinder with a rubber vibration damper in between. The part on the 1.8 L 4-cylinder is even cheaper, being a hard rubber hockey-puck design. The V-6 damper lasts around 50,000 miles while this part does not even make it to 20,000 miles!

From what I see, Mercedes quality and reliability started declining around model year 1998 and has been declining ever since. I do not see it getting better yet with their problems being both electrical and mechanical. When a vehicle with less than 20,000 miles breaks down and leaves you by the side of the road, I put that brands quality/reliability on the bottom of the barrel. Even American cars have better reliability through 60,000 miles.

When you see Toyota's, Honda's, Nissan's and Subaru's going to 200,000 miles and beyond with few major problems you wonder why Mercedes cannot even make one that is reliable in the first few years of ownership. Actually, I do not wonder because if they wanted to do that they could by appropriating the proper resources. It all starts with the corporate leadership and until that changes their quality/reliability will continue to decline.

There is a "new family" of MB products. The ML gave us downgraded switchgear, interior materials (though later ones were greatly improved) and a new customer base for Mercedes of "Japanese car buyers."

Between about 98-99 and 00-01, all the cars began to get laden with gadgets. All sorts of computer systems were piled on, including COMAND, ASR/ESP, etc. Fibre-optics were loaded in and replaced more and more wiring parts.

Drivelines were changed radically. Inline sixes, a main-stay of Mercedes for decades, was gone. But, it seemed like a good move. The new family of engines was smooth and allowed sleeker packaging. Different constuction looked to finally solve haed gasket problems.

However, after talking to techs, here's what I've compiled in my head...

1. The M112/113 engines are great engines until you have to work on them. Steve Brotherton talked about some parts that don't have the ability to be repaired, and that's bothersome for those of us that keep cars long term.

2. The "group" of M119, M104 and M111 engines had some various problems with head gaskets, oil tubes, and whatever, but those problems were easily solved by a mechanic and engines were VERY long lived. Engine "related" parts were built VERY well, and by 95-98, all those engines were workhorses of the finest order.

3. The 97-99 run of 722.6 trannies was not great. Mercedes won a design award for the tranny, but obviously didn't take long term prospects into consideration. Mercedes has taken steps to replace many of those units, but they're still having problems. So, they start to get the 722.6 fully sorted out, and then what do they do? Begin phasing it out! The NEW (or cripes, here we go again...) seven speed transmission is about to become model-line wide. Deja Vu?

Mercedes seems to have joined the "new for new sake" club. Why the new M111 1.8L engine? The older iron-block M111 was a terrific engine, probably the most reliable in the MB gasoline stable.

There was some encouraging news that MB is going to strip gadgets by the truckload out, but they need to get to it, and fast. Not sure about US sales, but Mercedes is down about 13% in Canada. ML sales are actually up a bit, but that's thanks to some seriously subvented leases.

reliability by MBZ?
 

In the last 15 years, MBZ has lost its way big time. From the 'flagship' of the 560SEL to the crap since then. Much of the damage is in the 'systems integration' area and caused by different subcontractors/suppliers of each individual control system--one supplier for the ABS, another for the HVAC, still another for the ASR/ETA/???--and never any thought on how to simplify things or standardize the boxes. And then there are the horrible engineerig/fabrication mistakes like the harmonic balancers (Chevy and Ford , much less any Japanese Co don't have that kind of problem) Go get in a Lexus or Infiniti and take a drive. They will even come pick up you car for service, leaving you a clean fresh 'loaner, and reutrn yours serviced, fixed, washed and cleaned.

Blackmercedes

which engine number applies to he '90 300 E streitht 6. That was a good post U did.

getting back to the guy with the new MB woe's. I just dropped $4800 in my '90 300-e. I normally would not do that on a car with 122K on it but I just like the car and the way I look at it is that I will never see another Bremin Factory All German Car again. Of at least a Car made by the Mercedes I grew up with. They are now dead, and makes me cling to my old guy. My brother is the same with his '92 300-E with 146K. When my 300 dies, I don't think I'll come back and buy a M.B assembled in Tenn. and a outsourced engine from Tiwain.

103 engine which in my opinion is probably one of the best six cylinder gasoline engine built by MB. Probably the reason is it's ease to work on/repair.

Repair Update
 

For all of you who are following the repair of my wife's 2003 C230K Kompressor, I picked up the vehicle on Friday...finally. It took them 4 days with no loaner provided (I asked!). It turns out the failure started with the bolts that hold the pulley to the water pump. Three out of four of them broke off. They had to tap out the three broken bolts and then replaced all four. The serpentine belt came off when the water pump pulley bolts broke and all other damage happened after that. Have you ever heard of this failure on any car brand before? I can't believe how this could have happened other than the bolts were backing out and the pulley was sliding back and forth on the pulley and finally wore through the bolt. Either that or the bolts they are using are so cheap that the metal is not strong enough.

Did not see the bill that was sent to Mercedes for the warranty repair, but I sure would not want to pay for it. Even the Mercedes techs admit there are too many problems with the newer Mercedes and prefer the quality of the older ones to what we are currently seeing. If Mercedes quality continues down this route they will have to start offering 10 year, 100,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranties to get people to but their products. Personally, even with a warranty, I do not care to be bothered with the continual problems.

BenzBob

when you consider the size of a pulley bolt, let alone 4 of them, I would say this is a bad sign. If the bolts were backing out I think you would have heard clanking, ticking, squeeling or something would sound off as the pulley started to back out from the allignment of the rest of the pulleys. The other issue is the force on the four bolts is a lateral force which is easy to keep in check.

You are like me, I want to keep my wife safe because she can't figure out if she is out of gas or not. I would get her a Honda or Toyota. They are not, chic, they have simple engineering, nothing hi tec, but they run. The only thing on your side is that the MB might crash better.

Regardless, I hear wiring harness burn outs on the new MB's (unheard of with the old one's) tranny issues and of course electrical gee gaa breakdowns everywhere. It may be time to go Jap until MB truns around, if they turn.

While I agree that MB's reliability has declined in the last 5-10 years I have to ask what you expect. All car manufacturers have problems like this. This is what happens when you mass-produce things. As well as the M271 motor being brand spanking new and put into the C230K lineup in 2003 I find it to be a good motor. Hopefully one that will last as long as the M102 motor I have. But I do not expect perfection from any car company so I guess that this would irritate me if it happened, but it would not piss me off. MB is just a car like all the rest, a mode of transport. Albeit a more expensive and comfortable mode of transport it is still a mass-produced car. Not all can be perfect and sometime **** happens and they get a bad bin of parts. Mine has had very few problems and I do not baby it or anything. I drive it like it was built to be driven and that is at its absolute limits at times. But I do expect it to break once in a while, maybe not the motor but some things do break and when you put this many electronic devices and pieces in a car you will have issues and gremlins.

Oh and I was not even irritated when I needed a new tranny at 16,000 miles because I screwed up the reverse synchro when pissed and shifting. Pulled up to hard downshifting to first and broke the plane and right to the R synchro. Dealer replaced tranny no questions asked and new one was just as good as the old. Of course it had to break in again but oh well. I learned not to downshift while pissed and cornering as you may screw up. But no worries, as I expect **** to happen. This one was due to a piss poor design on how to get to reverse and of course the fact that reverse is next to second, why not first is beyond me and why a push down to get past the plane is also beyond me..... Should have stuck it next to sixth so if I miss I really screw the tranny up.... Oh well, at least you got it back and hopefully this will be the last issue you have with it. I have some small **** but nothing really big and worrysome.

Re: Re: Repair Update
 

So because one out of a few hundred thousand has a problem you will not buy the car. Good luck finding any car that has no problems what so ever. Go to any forum for any car make and model and you will see the same story. Cars break, none are perfect and they make millions a year. Nothing can be perfect in life and if you expect it to be then you live in a dream world. Sorry it does not matter to me but for every story of something bad there is a story of one that is perfect.

True, mine has just been good to me. Other than the tranny issue but that was my fault not MB's so I can not blame them for anything other than there choice of where to put R. Oh well though. Also there are certain things I expect from an engine that is brand spanking new and really untested in real life experiences. But mine has actuall been very good and the dealer takes care of me. Maybe that is why I am not bothered, since I do get MB loaners and do not have to worry about getting a loaner. They also pick up my car and drop off the loaner and then come do the swap when done so I do not have to go out of my way for it. Now with the current new designs seen of the C-Class W204 and the fact that the little coupey may not make it back to the states, I may have to reconsider if my next vehicle will be a Benz. Of course I may get a CLK next time but that all depends on what it has for features and all that jazz. I did not buy mine because it said Mercedes Benz on it, I bought it because I liked how it looked, the price, the comfort and of course the features I chose. If the TSX had been out or the new TL things could be diferent today.

I think i'll keep my W124. Yeah it rides like crap compared to the new cars, it sucks in snow, slow off the line and things in the engine bay look so old the metal looks like stuff you see in an archeological dig, but I think I can live with that thank you very much and I can probably save and do some of the work in my driveway. I have had two MAJOR expenses, head gasket and tranny rebuild after b2 band failure. Catastrophic failures are just not my cup of tea, I almost got rid of it after the tranny thing but I am so glad I did not.

What happens when these things go out of warranty? :eek: :confused:
I hope people arent buying Benzes because they see my ole gal going down the road:mad:

Re: Re: Re: Repair Update
 

Yeah but catastrophic engine failure???? On a mercedes???Come on:rolleyes: I'm sorry but this is one area I expect some perfection for at least 100k dream world be damned!

I would like to clarify a few points:

1) Mercedes is safer that other makes. FALSE

Crash ratings for a Lexus LS 430 are better than an E320.
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summary_lglux.htm

Earlier models are poor in some area's.
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summary_lglux_earlier.htm

2) Mercedes cars before the 1990's were more reliable than other makes. FALSE
Toyota has been more reliable since the 80's.

3) The only thing wrong with the new Mercedes cars is the electronics. False
Mechanical componets have a high failure rate as well.


According to JD Powers, an 8 year old Lexus is more reliable than a new BMW.

My 94 E320 will probably be my first and last MB. Toyota or Lexus will be my next purchase.

I wish I had found this forum before I bought my E320. The preceived MB quality myth is so widespread, that people believe, all MB cars excel in all area's, including reliability.

Uptill mid 90's, MB were far behind the competition in feature content like electronics (compare a 95 E320 to a 95 Lexus LS400). Then MB over compensated and now they are back tracking again to reduce the non-value added electronics.

Having said that, the failures on my 94 E320 have been items that MB outsourced like Aux Fans, wiring harness, headgasket, ECM, ACC Control Unit etc.

MB built engine and transmission are in like new conditon.

One last item, if MB made 400,000 E320's per year, like Toyota makes Camry's, either MB quality would improve or they would go out of buisness.

Mercedes' strong suite has never been Camry-like reliability. Since the mid 1980's when Toyota and Honda really got it together, pretty much all other brands have been behind in pure reliability.

Where Mercedes shone is in the area of long term "life" of the car as a whole. The most expensive parts of the car were designed to last nearly forever. Even here in the salt-winter belt of the world, W124's are rarely seen with rust. The body looks like it'll last another decade, or more! Engine bottom ends are built to last 500K-miles, maybe more.

Take the example of our 88 626 and our 90 190E. The 626 has a working sunroof and power windows. Heck, the car is in pretty good shape, EXCEPT that the engine is getting a little soft and the tranny is on it's way out. The body is beginning to show some serious signs of rust and will begin to rot away soon. The 190E has a broken antenna, non-working power window (passenger door, driver's side) and other maladies the 626 never has had. Overall, the 626 has required far fewer repairs than the 190E, but the 190E will last many years to come while the 626 is now a lost cause.

Why? Because the M103 in the 190E is still tight and strong. The body is in good condition and various other major parts are in good shape with lots of life left. Heck, even at nearly 400K-km's, the 2.6 has only been opened for a timing chain, and only for peace of mind as it was still well within spec.

So, which one is the "better" car? Well, the 626 has been a loyal servant for nearly 17 years. That's a good run for a car that was about $17,000 back in the fall of 1987. The 190E other the other hand was nearly $50,000 back in 1990! For value, the 626 is miles ahead even considering it's shorter overall life. But, the 626 is an awful (in my opinion) car to drive. The 2.6 is not. IT's still reasonably quick and handles very well considering it's "old" strut suspension. The body structure is incredible and it's still nearly rattle free.

Apples to Oranges...

Hence why I said they are like any other car. Although some other cars are of course better or worse than others. Myself I could care less what a survey says, I go by personal experience.

I would not call a few bolts breaking catastrophic. I mean they fixed it and did not need a new engine. I call catastrophic what happened to the 1989 Mercury Cougar XR-7 that had 6000 miles and threw a rod through the cylinder wall catastrophic as Ford sent a full crate motor to replace it. Car was a Demo none the less and not a customers and my mom was driving it and she does not exactly drive like a maniac as I would. Like I said I hammer mine pretty good and think I was the first to tell my Service Writer that I heard a noise from the rear suspension when sliding the rear around left hand corners as well as when hammering it off the line. He told the techy I heard a thumping from the rear when driving spiritedly and the techy had some strange look of what was I talking about on his face. The Advisor told him when I was tossing the rear out. It turned out to be the damn ESP Psuedo LSD crap, the brakes were activating to sping the other tire due to loss of traction with ESP in the off position via the dash button. Stupid MB can't put an LSD rear in and has to do it with electronics and brakes..... Like LSD is that expensive of an option to add.

McTwin2k man

No one is saying MB don't run into **** at times. Just saying my '90 300-E has 122k on it. It needed a water pump, a thermostate, signal light bulbs twice, break master cylinder,Serpentine belt and tensoner, muffler,coming up to it's second set of front rotors, dist. cap, third cam seal, 2nd set of plug wires- Basicly it needed nothing and coming up on 15 years. This will not be your experience. Granted, you may not want to hold on to a car for that long. Keep in mind the Bremin Germany Factory made something I don't want to get rid off. If the car was made in Tenn. with a Taiwan Engine and the Work Force you get down there, then beleive me, I would be looking at the picture the same way as you and I would be using your words too-, "a mass produced car", "what do you expect."

I just suggesting an era has come and gone, and what you get today is kid stuff out of Mercedes. At least with a Honda or Toyota, you get there and back, although not in the same comfort.

Yeah although I have had to do a lot of work to my 190 since I bought it, the parts and engine have held up for 18 years and 160,000 miles. All I have done is normal maint to get it to where it should have been if the previous owner actually maintained it. As for my C class, the wife wants to keep it til it dies but I am not that optimistic. It is an SC'ed engine so I will get rid of it before it hits 100,000 miles or sooner if I start having problems while still under warranty. On a side note, my family used to own a Dodge Dealership so maybe I am just used to cars breaking!!!! Also had Lincoln Mercury back in the day and AMC/Eagle. So as you may figure there was a lot of broke down cars that I saw. Even Toyota's and Honda's.

McTwin2Kman

I'm in the same boat, bought a 2001 VW Turbo Diesel. I'm in the oil business, so I saw the gas situation we have todaystarting back in '01 and wanted a high milage diesel. Back then they discounted the diesel, now it's a premium. Well, the air mass sensor or a bad ground or something kept robbing the car of power. 0 to 60 went to 34 seconds instead of 12.5. Gave VW 5 tries to fix it, they never did and gave me a 2002. I know I'm on borrowed time and will off that car before the 4 yr warrenty is up. Oddly enough I went to thinking my 98 chevy pickup was junk to now thinking it is an easy truck to maintain. The Chevy is still junk but any second rate mechanic in his sleep can fix it. You can't fix a VW. You can't even find room to work on it. It's in the shop now with a burnt out altenator after 32,000 miles of gentle care. This truck does not work, it does not plow, it's just a toy for going to Home Depot and back. In reality I want another diesel but everyting seems to be breaking. I may try a Mercedes Diesel and Drive trane in a Jeep Liberty, but the Jeep side of the equation has me nervous. The other choice is the Honda Accord coming out with its first Diesel. I hate first year cars, but Honda's down side usually is limited to being too low to the ground, eating mufflers and being tinny. Other than those three, they usually run for years. Oh, I forgot Honda uses yerterdays technology. That makes them not to desirable for driving, but reliable. It's amazing , but 15 years ago there were many reliable cars in both economy and hight end. Now the high end cars will bury you at the dealer service center and the reliable cars are just a few of the simple economy models like Toyota Camery, Honda and Suburu. Not very exciting choices for a car you can stick your wife in, have her go 300 miles in to visit reatives and get back without an incident.

One thing you must realize is that an automobile has over 5,000 parts. Even if you have 99% reliability, that means that 1% (or 50 parts) will be problematic.

Hopefully, the parts that will go bad won't let you standing by the side of the road.