108 Front end questions

[68_Mercedes]

The 1967 250S w108 I just purchased, is sagging a little in the front end. I know nothing about what needs to be done to fix this. Can someone walk me through this? What do I need to look for? I appreciate your help

[Tomguy]

Dunno how much the 350 V8 weighs but I assume it's heavier than the 4.5, which has heavier duty springs than a 250S to support the heavier engine I believe.

However, it's VERY LIKELY to be subframe mounts. http://www.peachparts.com/diy_108_subframe.htm -> Very good article written by Mike Tangas, a member here

[68_Mercedes]

I don't know the actual weight of either motor, but seems like when we pulled the original straight 6, it was a heavy SOB. However, interestingly enough, whoever had this thing welded in leaf springs in the front end. Considering my '68 has coil springs, I'm pretty certain the leaf springs on the '67 are NOT original, although I don't know jack about the '67's.

So, it may take some investigating to figure out what the heck to do to fix the sag. May just be a case of needing to add an extra leaf, or replace the existing with stronger ones. I still don't understand why they would switch to leaf springs though... if weight was an issue, you can get however heavy duty of a coil spring that you need. Really bizarre.....

Thanks for the reply and the help!

[230/8]

While the subframe mounts could be a problem, the place I'd begin looking is the Chevy V8. Check your hot rod how-to books and you'll find the 350 Chevy V8 and a 350 automatic transmission (I assume that's what has been swapped in) weighs about 675#, maybe a bit more if all the cast iron manifolds are still on and not replaced by lighter aluminum parts. Add in the extra weight of a HD radiator and its coolant and you've added maybe a couple of hundred extra pounds to the front end. I think that's why some folks choose the Ford 289/302 for a swap. They are longer than a Chevy but about 150# lighter at the start.

You may need to install springs for a 280SE 4.5 to carry the extra weight. Also, make sure the shocks are still Bilsteins or other OEM high pressure gas equivalent all around. They add a bit of spring rate to the suspension and if one end (rear) is gas and the other is not, you'll get a rake to the car's stance. Happened to me on my old 230/8 back when I was real new to MBs and did not understand their high quality parts. Put on standard Monroe shocks up front to save $$ and got a slight hot rod rake for no extra charge.

Good luck,

230/8

edit: Just read your post which came up as I was composing mine...if you have leaf springs then you will need to do some serious work to get it back to something resembling original. Good luck, indeed. You'll need it methinks.

230/8

[68_Mercedes]

Originally Posted by 230/8

edit: Just read your post which came up as I was composing mine...if you have leaf springs then you will need to do some serious work to get it back to something resembling original. Good luck, indeed. You'll need it methinks.

230/8

Yeah, I dunno why they didn't go to a custom spring shop and have a set of heavier springs custom made for the car. Sure seems like the easier plan to me. But, considering it has leafs, I'll just dela with it, and either replace and/or add as needed.

As far as the shocks... yeah, I have heard about using that cheap crap on MB's. I hear they don't work too well at all. I will definitely have to look and see what they have installed.

[psfred]

Leaf springs? You no longer have an MB front suspension if that is the case. All W108 suspensions are pretty much idential except for the springs.

Don't confuse the strap spring for the subframe for a weigh bearing spring, the coils are between the lower control arm and the subframe, behind the shock.

If someone DID put leaf springs in there, you are on your own, alas.

A chevy 350 normaly has a rear sump, and even the front sump pan has a rather deep pan, so someone may have either installed a custom made front suspension, bastardized the Benz one, or substituted a complete suspension from another vehicle for clearance.

That's the other reason for using a Ford engine, front sump, no suspension modifications needed. Ditto for a Chrysler 318, if you can find one these days. With the Ford, you can even use one of the newer OHC ones.

Peter

[68_Mercedes]

It looks to be the original mercedes front end, but with leaf springs attached... I didn't get a good look at it tho. Hope to look at it a little closer this evening.......

Leaf springs certainly wouldn't have been my first choice.... or second, or third for that matter..... I just don't understand their logic in making such a decision..........

The oil pan does not appear to have been modified, nor does the crossmember... so it actually looks to have fit quite nicely.

As far as ford and dodge motors.... ford is no where near the top of my favorites list, and Dodge, ugh, I hate Dodge. Personal preference, mainly because of my experiences with them.....

[Tomguy]

Well, I can't bash the Jeep engine I have, it runs strong at 150k. Ford... had 2 die with 131k and 129k, which is abysmally low, and had a Nissan blow a head gasket at 160k (my dad drove it a bit too much with a busted water pump - he didn't know, I replaced it, but the head gasket went about 2 weeks later... was easy to fix though).

You sure you arent mistaking the "springs" that hold the subframe and keep it from swaying with these "coil springs"? Although looking at what you did with your other 108, you probably would know (I'd hope) - as Peter said, other than spring strength, all 108's have the same front suspension (FYI: All 108, 109, 111 and 112 chassis are quite similar up front). I would look to see if someone actually replaced the front subframe suspension with some half-assed "custom" design which would be out of our area for help (if it does, in fact, have front leaf springs, then that's a HUGE problem - leaf springs were discontinued in the fronts LONG ago because the engine weight would cause RAPID sagging).

If it DOES have the coils still in there, I'm sure you can EASILY grab ones from a 4.5 which will DEFINETLY help with the sag AND ride quality. I bet SOMEONE here has a spare set (I saw a member with a sig that says he has a 108 4.5 parts car and 6-cyl drivers, so those 4.5 springs would be useless to him). If not, someone here can easily grab you a pair on their next junkyard trip, you can call tristar pete, etc etc!

This is actually the BG pic of that page with the subframe mount directions - I changed the colors to make it a little easier to read, and circled the subframe, pointed to the sub mount, and show where the spring and shock SHOULD be in the front hub assembly.

edit: forgot pic (silly me), and wanted to say: If it isn't stock (exactly like this picture) then post a pic or 2 (or more) of the custom "chop" job... I bet they had to cut the subframe (if not remove it altogether) to accomidate the chevy engine, which will really muck up your handling and make it... well, NOT handle like the road king it is!

[Arthur Dalton]

You are more likely looking at the castor adjusting straps/links .. From the front , they look like a leaf spring with the eye mount, but they are not.
Take a better look...

[wbain5280]

Originally Posted by 68_Mercedes

The 1967 250S w108 I just purchased, is sagging a little in the front end. I know nothing about what needs to be done to fix this. Can someone walk me through this? What do I need to look for? I appreciate your help

Please take a pic and post it so we can tell what's up with this car.

[68_Mercedes]

I didn't have a lot of time to mess with the car yesterday evening... I got in late and by the time I got to it, it was already dark, and naturally my dead battery holder (flashlight) was no where to be found.

I'm just almost 100% certain that what I am looking at tho is leaf springs. I'm going to have to throw a jack under the car to really be able to tell tho. It's barely visible with the car sitting down... so I'll grab a flashlight tonight and crawl under the car to see what I can see.....

From what I can see of the crossmember, it IS the original Mercedes crossmember,,,, but I can't tell how they might have gone about attaching leaf springs to it. I can think of several quick and easy ways to do it, without butchering the crossmember.....

Either way, whether I'm right or totally nuts, I would like to find a set of the 4.5 springs, and try to get back to the original configuration I think. So if anyone knows where a set is, I would appreciate the info.... I could also use an additional set for my '68, since I have done a similar conversion on it.... would appreciate the help in locating these....

Thanks!

[psfred]

Funny, I've always had exactly the opposite experience -- Ford and Chrysler "old" V8s run forever, GM (especially Chevy) V8's toss rods, burn holes in pistons, etc. I can always get a Ford to run better than a Chevy 350.

A note -- you will not be able to see the spring unless you crank the steering all the way to one side, it's burried pretty deep in there, on top of the lower control arm.

I don't know why someone would have put leaf springs in there anyway, the 350 is somewhat smaller than the M117, and the coils are pretty far out of the way.

Who knows though -- when it comes to custom stuff, there are no rules....

Peter

[68_Mercedes]

PHEW! OK.... I got under the car last night, and here's what I found... the previous owner had tack welded in some sort of temporary brackets, for what reason, I don't know cuz they weren't connected to anything at all... but from the side of the car as well as from inside the motor compartment, they looked like leaf springs. But anyway, after we crawled under the car, we could tell they were just useless bs, and with a few hits from a grinder, they were gone.........

Now then, with that said, yes, the original springs are still installed. However, they obviously aren't enough to do the job, so I really really need a set of the 4.5 springs as suggested. Does anyone have a set or know where we can get a set? There's no one here where I live that deals with older model used MB parts. Moreover, we're wanting to take this thing to a car show next weekend, but I HAVE to get the springs replaced to be able to do that. The passenger front tire is hitting the outer fender when we turn the wheels to the right thanks to the sagging. Also, how can you tell if the bushings are in good shape, or if they need to be replaced?

[300SDog]

Here's what I suggest before you go any further - actually get the car on a lift and check for a cracked subframe - an uncommon problem, yet one that has been known to occur.

[68_Mercedes]

OK, now then, with my begging and pleading for a set of springs for my car out of the way, I'll discuss the chevy/ford/doge motor thing.

With Dodge, I've had nothing but purely bad luck.... blowin out freeze plugs drivin down the road was one bad instance (stranded out on a highway in the middle of nowhere) Then had a Charger with only 70,000 miles on it, and kaboom, blew the motor (was just cruising along). Then there are the infamous Dodge transmission horror stories, of which I have been so unlucky to be a part of as well... such as my Dodge Dakota.... It just turned 100,000 miles a few months back, and already I have gone through 5, yes FIVE,COUNT THEM: 1,2,3,4,5 TRANSMISSIONS and now the 5th one is slipping so I am now in need of a 6th!!!!!! Pretty bad average... less than 20,000 miles per transmission!!!!! Ain't no way in hell I would put a Dodge anything in a project car!!!!! DODGE SUCKS.

Now with Ford, it's been some good, some bad....... but in Ford's credit, I will say the last ford F150 truck I retired made it to 297,000 miles on the original straight 6 motor, and still ran well when we sold it (although it was starting to get a little "loose" and was leaking oil like hell out of the rear main seal). I also have an F250 right now that is at 179,000 miles on its original motor. The only problem is that I had to replace the transmission a couple of years ago.

Now to Chevy's credit, I actually have several shirts from being a member of their "200,000 mile plus" club, because the last three chevy's I had all went beyond 300,000 miles before I retired them. The last one was a 1978 Chevy Cheyenne BIG 10 that had been in the family since new.... I retired it at 315,000 miles, and the motor was all original, and was still turn-key and didn't smoke. I had rebuilt the transmission in it though. The other two chevy's were a monte carlo, and believe it or not, a chevy S-10.

So I have had very great luck with Chevy, and was raised in a "chevy home". And I have had some very good luck with Ford as well along with some very bad luck too. But overall, I'm a chevy nut, so I went that way with it.....