What is this car ???

[68_Mercedes]

Ok, while this car might actually be a fake, I found something interesting... A picture of yet another 2-door like this one, which was originally a hard top, which someone had cut the top off of. It was on a Ponton sight, and even the people on THAT sight couldn't identify the car, but suggested that perhaps it is a Binz variant. Binz being a company that Mercedes Benz allowed to build custom "Mercedes" from an original Mercedes chassis, which is how you ended up with Mercedes pickups, ambulances, and hearses.

Apparently, Mercedes supplied Binz with the following chassis and Binz made their "custom Mercedes" from that.



While the sight didn't mention any 2-door hard-tops being made as a variant, perhaps there were a few made, and this guy is the "lucky" owner of one of them????? (Although he isn't so lucky if that's what it really is, since someone butchered the poor thing and it is no longer anywhere near original and there is no way to restore it to original).

Here is a picture of that particular Ponton. Obviously, it isn't restored, nor is it a "kit car" or a hybrid...



Here is what the caption said that was with this picture:

This Type 180b/c or 190b "chop-top" (the roof was removed by the owner) was spotted in Izmir, Turkey on October 26, 2003 by Craig Semple. It appears to have only two doors. This may indicate that it is a Binz body variant (a "Bakkie" or pick-up) originally destined for the South African market. How did it find its way to Turkey? It would have had to travel north over the length of the African continent and then across the Mediterranean Sea to get to the port city of Izmir. Or, perhaps it made its way through eastern Europe and then ended up here. There were approximately 400 units of this Binz variant style (2 door pick-up) built.

interesting????

While the author of that caption suggests that it MIGHT be a bakkie, I don't believe it is. After looking at the bakkies thorougly, it just doesn't look right to be one.... what do you think???? Click the following link to take a good gander at some bakkies....

http://www.mbzponton.org/pax058/people/photogalleryvariants.htm

Look how close the rear of the door is in relation to the rear fender well in the pic of the Ponton above, vs how far it appears to be in the pictures of the bakkies. To me, the car in the photo above appears more like the car that originated this thread....

Now obviously, the "Ponton" in this thread has several "un-original" details, such as the hood hinges, the mislocated turn signals, etc., but by looking at the pic above, it looks as though it MAY not be a fake.... who knows? After-all, both of my 108's have American Motors in them, which doesn't mean they are fake, it just means someone did some conversions....

[nachi11744]

Hello,
Just open the hood and look at the engine, or better yet, post a picture of the front/rear suspension and engine bay. If it is a 4 cylinder ponton, that will be the way to ID the thing. No need to ask for chassis/engine#s.
Too many questions, no answers at all...............
From the grainy pic, it looks like the front jacking point is in the right place.
Have a good week

[yasserbarkoki]

WOW this is like the first time I post anything on the net and did not emagine that my post would stir so much interest.

I am lovin the fact that this car has introduced me into a net community of similar interests and so much expertise and resorces of info.

The Car is now in the city of Cairo, Egypt.

The chassis number is 27364, engine number is27523.

The registration says its a 1959 Mercedes 190.

It has a 4 cylinder engine (dont know if its the original one)?but it is a MB

I paid the equivilant of US $ 7,000.

Its a great ride and it handles very well

and here are some more photos

On the question of it being a fake or not, I dont think the previous owner had the resources or the money to invest in such a project.

I probably paid him 10 times what he paid for it years ago, but he went through a lot of effort to partially restore it to be able to sell it.

Here are some more photos of it.

I will post some more later, but I am traveling and just happen to have these on my laptop.

Cheers all

[Mark DiSilvestro]

Just dragged out my copy of 'Schrader-Motor-Chronik MERCEDES-BENZ Ponton- und Heckflossen-Modelle 1953-1965'. It's in German but the photos work in any language. There's pictures of hearse/ambulance/estate variants by Binz, in Lorch/Wurttemberg, and Miesen, in Bonn. One picture shows a Binz 2-door hearse.

This Ponton 'Cabrio' looks like a shortened and lowered Binz 'truck' body/chassis. Customised 'chopped' versions of American cars were/are popular here and probably in other countries too. I'm sure labor costs in Cairo are cheaper than in the US. Just hope that Cabrio chassis was suitably reinforced for 'topless' duty.

Happy Motoring, Mark

[Douglas Broome]

As the owner of a 1959 cabrio 220S that happens also to be yellow outside and red inside, I looked that the pictures carefully. I can say with certainty that the car under discussion is not an original Mercedes ponton cabrio. The body is also clearly not that of a 220S/SE or 219 in sedan form that was later converted.

Just for starters, note the soft top. It begins its curve well behind the end of the door. That is incorrect for original ponton cabrios.

Also, note the wide front grille. That came only on very late versions of the 180 and 190 sedans that overlapped in production with the fintail 190c. All grilles on all 220S/SE sedans, coupes, and cabrios were narrower as were the grilles on all 219 sedans.

There are many other anomolies, as noted already.

[68_Mercedes]

Note for all viewers of this thread.... I managed to run into another Mercedes "Ponton Buff" (Jeff at www.mbzponton.org really nic guy, check out his site) who has original Mercedes drawings of a "proposed" Merceds 180/190 4 cyl 2 door.... whether or not it was ever actually built, is hard to say... the project itself was scrapped, but that's not to say a few prototypes didn't make it out the door before shutting down the project......


(scratching head)

[nachi11744]

Hello,
I agree with Mark, this is probably an ambulance that has been *cut and shut*, a fair number did serve in Lebanon and presumably other Middle Eastern countries as well.
Still not a *factory* car, perhaps best described as a *customized Ponton*
BTW, I have not been eating carrots lately, so cannot see anything in the nighttime pictures that were posted
Have a good week.

[300SDog]

Yasser, I hope you're not offended at me calling your car a fake.... but those first 2 pics made the car look bogus to me. Am now concurring with Mark and 68's opinion that it's probably a custom version which slipped through the cracks with convertible roof.

No doubt there are millions of Mercedes variations at places like North Africa which are less well-known to the rest of the world.

Welcome to the forum..... We have people from Southeast Asia, Philipines, Australia, Britain, Brazil, Sweden and Portugal here - but we do not get alot of forum contributors and visitors from Africa - so spread the word and i hope to learn more of Vintage MB's put into daily service across the globe.

[68_Mercedes]

Without further info, it's STILL a total guess as to what the hell this thing is.


yasserbarkoki The numbers you gave us are incomplete. Those are not normal engine and chassis numbers. It looks as though maybe you took the final numbers off of the chassis and engine number sequence which gives us what amounts to the SERIAL numbers of each one, but those numbers mean nothing as far as identifying the vehicle. We need the COMPLETE number sequence to be able to properly identify the vehicle. See below:

A good 190 ponton chassis number would look like:
121.011-7512770

A good 180 ponton chassis number would look like:
120.011-7512770


Can you better clarify?

Thanks......

[68_Mercedes]

Here is what my buddy had to say about this car:

Originally Posted by Jeff the "Ponton Emperor" at [url

www.mbzponton.org][/url]
Note the air intakes on either side of the grille.* Not quite the standard design for either 4 or 6 cylinder Pontons.* Non standard hood hinges too.* The narrow fender mounted amber driving lights are standard issue for the 6 cylinder Ponton models such as the W105 219 sedan, the W180 220S and W128 220SE sedan, coupé and cabriolet.* These could have been added to 4 cylinder models per the owner's request after the car left the Daimler-Benz factory grounds. The grille is "b" style (after mid-1959).* The "b" Pontons did not usually have front bumper guards.* The bumper photos are not very clear.* The rear view mirrors are not standard.

Note the treatment of the vent window track.* The originals were chromed and the way it meets the windshield "a-pillar" looks awkward.* Note the high window tracks where the "b-pillar" would be located on a vehicle with an enclosed cabin.* The wheelbase appears to be shortened (see the "prototype" photo and sketches, above) because there is not enough room for a rear door.* If this is a "bakkie" conversion, the trunk (boot) would have been added where the "load box" was previously located.* That amounts to a lot of sheet metal modifications for such a modest vehicle.

The seats appear to be original style.

Top in the raised position.* Trunk handle seems to be missing, unless the license plate lamps are the early (pre mid-1959) type which double as trunk handles.* Also note the pre mid-1959 style tail lights.* The "b" models had longer lights with reflectors at the bottom.* There are some real mysteries here.

Dash area and instrument cluster seems to be standard 4 cylinder Ponton.* Steering
wheel is "b" type for the W120 and W121 sedans.* Note roof latches at the top of the windshield.

Many thanks to Jeff and all his help on trying to figure out what the heck this thing is!! For more useful Ponton info, and for all Ponton enthusiasts, visit www.mbzponton.org

[atombaum]

This is a good thread and I hope we can do several things: Figure out what the full chassis number and engine number is and get some better daylight photos. Another thing is I'd like Craig Semple to get back to Turkey and take more photos of that red "bakkie" or cabrio conversion!

[Gilly]

I'm guessing a W180 4 cyl partial 2 door chassis converted into a convertible. Has some 6 cylinder trim, like the lights on top of the fender, which are mounted farther back than where the factory would put them. I agree on the trunk having the early style license lights and I also don't see a handle. The door and windshield area looks quite strange, the vent window looks incorrect, perfect angles, should curve at the top, even on a partial chassis.
So many things look correct, but a few things look wrong, but this may all be explained in that it's a partial chassis and things get changed. No way is it a 220S or 220SE, lines are all wrong for that. Based on some of the trim I'd assume it's 54 to 56. Too much there to tell me it's a 59, may have been retitled later as a 59. Also if it's a W180, where did the vents on the side of the hood go? Almost looks like a W115 hood, and why would the hood hinges be changed to external?
Gilly

[atombaum]

The W180 chassis prefix is the 220a or 220S 6 cyl. model. The 180 4 cylinder model has a chassis number prefix of W120.

ponton chassis prefixes and associated models:

W120:
180/180a/180D/180b/180Db/180c/180Dc

W121:
190/190D/190b/190Db

W121:
190SL/190SLR

W105:
219

W180:
220a/220S

W128:
220SE

more detail with production dates here:
http://www.mbzponton.org/valueadded/other/overview.htm

[autozen]

I'm voting with Warren on this one. I also think it is a 180 or 190 and especially after seeing the dash. I owned several 180s and 190s in yester year. I used to commute in a 56 180D. Talk about slow. We salvaged pistons from a dumpster at Safeway Stores. They used to use the MB diesel engines to run their refrigeration at cold storage facilities. Up until about 15 years ago, it wasn't uncommon to go into the engine room on a new sail boat and find one of these old turkies loking brand new. I"M VOTING 180 OR 190.

Peter

[yasserbarkoki]

Now, The more info I am seeing comming on that car, the more confused I actually got.
It seems that there are two options that are more likely scenarios for this car.
The first on is that its actually on of the prototypes that were made by MB in 1953. see the link http://www.mbzponton.org/pax058/people/photogalleryvariants.htm
The second option is that some one really went through the effort of converting a ponton truck into that car.
However both options are still very unlikely as I dont think the car's value was ever worth the trouble to convert it. Nor have I ever seen a ponton truck in the streets of Egypt.

So you see why I am now even more confused.
I am still traveling so I will not be able to get a second look on Chassis numbers.

but I sent an email to my cousin Dana and she sent me these day light pictures if they are worth it to any one.

:p Thanks to all of you people out there for the inetrest and help and sorry for the confusion.
But if any one of you are ever in Egypt please do pay us a visit and see this car first hand.

Take care all

Yasser