Questions on a '71 250 I'm looking at...

[rgp123]

A retired flight attendant here has this car in her garage and is ready to sell it. She ordered it and took delivery in the Mother Country, never spent a night outdoors, never wrecked or painted, carbs converted (probably Webers), Palomino interior, dark brown roof with cream body and not sure of miles since she replaced the speedo. She still has the original speedo so I will add the two and get a total mileage.

What are the areas to be concerned with on such a car? I doubt it has any rust but there could be a little hidden somewhere. I'm wondering about the carbs because all she could tell me was, "they came from CA and they were not cheap!" I figured they were Webers but we'll see.

The ebay crowd gives me the impression this car is worth around $3k; what say ye? Any ideas or suggestions on what to look out for will be appreciated.

RP

[mzsmbs]

rust: rocker pannels, trunk

rotten rubber: everywhere, motor mounts, subframe bushings and all window and door seals.

the carbs you're just going to have to see. a bit of PITA with two but servicable...

everything for this car is somewhat expensive but available...

3k is on the high end of the scale but if it's in the shape it sound like it is then it's probably a good price. does the seller have all the records???

[Tomguy]

You said it's been garaged. This makes me think of a MAJOR issue:

RUBBER. If the tires show any sign of dryrot (probably not, she'll probably put new ones on before she sells it), then you can bet that EVERY bit of suspension rubber is SHOT or WILL BE shot after a month of driving. Anything from subframe mounts, swaybar bushings, engine mounts, and rear trailing arm bushings to caliper dust guards and tie rod dust guards.

In 1989, my parents bought a 4.5 that had been garaged for quite some time (since 1979 or so). The first 3-4 years were spent finding out which part needed to be replaced next. The master cylinder, because the fluid went bad while sitting so long and wore it out completely once we started driving it. MANY rubber suspension pieces (although not the subframe mounts, which is why both lower A-Arms eventually cracked from fatigue). The windshield leaked (leaks) because of the bad seal. The window mechanism on the driver's side went bad because the grease went bad after so many years of disuse. We even had to replace wheel bearings at one point! It spent a LOT of time in the shop. Had we known ahead of time, we (my parents) would have said to subtract $2K from what they paid for it (I think $10k) for replacing all these things.

On the bright side, it does still have the original exhaust, which is showing no signs of going anytime soon But of course, the exhaust rubber donuts were dryrotted, and when they broke, the muffler extension tips got ruined from bottoming out.

EDIT: Of course, unless you buy a FULLY RESTORED (recently) 108/109-chassis car, you can be almost 100% assured that all this would need to be done anyway. I'd offer $2500 knowing that almost all the aforementioned pieces will need to be inspected/replaced - if you look at them yourself and they don't look dry or cracked, offer the $3k. She probably thinks it's worth $20k unless she knows what they actually go for. If she didnt store it properly, even if it seems to run OK now, the carbs will probably need to be cleaned or rebuilt from rotten gas. Assume every fluid in this vehicle is old and needs to be replaced - it's better to be safe than sorry!

[rgp123]

The bad fluids issue is a given. I asked her today when it was last driven and she believed it was 18 months ago. She put in a new battery not long ago and ran it down trying to get the car started. She reminded me that it was not very good on gas. I told her I was aware of that and that nobody really cared in '71! At $2 gal. today it's a way different story.

The rotten rubber syndrome is also expected. Age, not mileage, is the issue on rubber anyway. I plan to crawl in, under and through it on Thursday so we'll see.

I believe she will be realistic about the market value. She has only held on to it because she had the space (until now) and it has sentimental value.

Thanks for your helpful suggestions and reminders. I haven't messed with gassers much, except the 560SL. The 114 chassis is not my ballpark either so any tips are a great help

[mzsmbs]

Originally Posted by rgp123

Thanks for your helpful suggestions and reminders. I haven't messed with gassers much, except the 560SL. The 114 chassis is not my ballpark either so any tips are a great help

snoop around the forum. you'll find lot's of good info here. check sticky!
i'll be doing some work on my car hopefully soon so i'll share and i am sure i'll ask a bit too...

[ctaylor738]

JAM Engineering makes the Weber conversion kit. They are in CA, and not cheap.

You will probably have to boil the tank to get the rust and scale out, clean and blow out the lines, install new filters, and go through the carbs. Brake hoses and calipers may be questionable.

Then when you can drive it, you may find a variety of problems like noisy rear end, transmission issues, suspension, steering etc. IMO, this is where the big risk in buying a car that's been off the road is. If you can, try to work a deal where you get to drive it before you buy it.

Make sure the blower motor works and the heater core doesn't leak. MAJOR jobs to replace!

Also, (sigh) the nicest 250 sedan in the world is not worth more than $2000 on a good day, so bid accordingly.

Sounds like a nice car, though. Good luck.

[Apodman]

Is this a W114 or a W108?

Alex

[230/8]

The rubber items mentioned should be suspect as should the other fluids. You may be surprised at the gas, it will last quite a long time before degrading to a problem. If there was a small amount of water in the tank it will have separated and settled to the bottom and you might have rust. So add a bottle of alcohol dryer to re-suspend it and change the fuel filter after you get it home. Cut it apart to see what is inside and that will guide you on what is needed in the fuel system. If you have the ability to drain the tank and fill with fresh fuel, do it before running the engine. When you try to start it, the carbs will be dry and dried out inside. Turn over the engine enough to get fuel to them and then let it sit an hour as fuel soaks into the gaskets and loosens the varnish inside the bowls. Starting may be a challenge, or not. One area not mentioned yet is the cooling system. If the antifreeze additives are shot then the radiator and heater cores are suspect. The heater core is the bugger and if it is leaking you may not want to buy the car because they are expensive to replace. Change the brake fluid ASAP if you do buy it along with the other vital fluids in the engine and trans. The 114s are classic little work horses that will last forever if cared for.

For what it's worth, and good luck.

230/8

[rgp123]

As I begin my inspection in the morning I may return to the computer with more questions. The owner and her husband will not be there when I go but she has given me access to the garage and of course the car.

I think the idea about giving the fuel time to re-saturate the carb bowls and gaskets is great. I had thought about pulling the fuel line off before the filters and drawing some right out of my gas can to avoid what's in the tank until I can drain it. I'm in no hurry to get it started. I was planning to pull the plugs and squirt a little oil in each cylinder and turn it by hand prior to trying to start it; plenty for one morning.

Someone else suggested starting it before attempting to buy it. That was my plan all along. I also don't want to contaminate something someone here might be interested in should I have to pass on it for any reason.

Thanks again. I'll keep you posted.

RP

[rgp123]

This 250 is VERY solid. The only rust I could find was the battery tray and it is not that bad. The paint is perfect with one scratch on the roof. Interior has cracks in the door panels but only one on the dash. A previous compression test I found in the glove box showed all at about 100, or middle 90's.

With plugs out and a little oil in the cylinders I hooked my battery up and spun the motor a few times. After drawing clean fuel into the carbs from a line break at the fuel pump, I had one small leak on the front accel. pump. Tightened it down and no drip. Got two new fuel filters in anticipation of the crub flow. The carbs are Webers by the way.

AC has a new dryer so it probably was charged last time out. I'm headed back over to put the plugs back in and give it a try, drawing the gas from my 5 gal. can. The tank sounded empty but the gauge said 1/4; probably no big deal to drain it.

The rubber underneath looks good. Flex disks are new, tie rods are new and all other rubber components look good except one inner axle boot that tore when I jacked up the rear . All the exhaust donut hangers were shot. The tires were flat spotted so bad they almost didn't turn loose from the concrete when I raised them up.

More to come.

RP

[ctaylor738]

"A previous compression test I found in the glove box showed all at about 100, or middle 90's. "

That's really low. Something is seriously wrong if those numbers are right.

[Arthur Dalton]

Check your valve timing alignment marks.
Low comp across the board can be a jumped/worn chain..

[rgp123]

I found a note, looked like an estimate but written on notebook paper, and it said r&r head, valve guides and a number of other valve related issues, brakes and a few other estimates. Sounds like a valve job and/or other work was recommended by someone "outside" of regular business hours?

What should the compression test reflect? The note said, "leak down." Is there more than one type of compression check?

It started right up with very little smoke, ran smooth when it reached operating temp. It was a beautiful 63 degrees here today so the radiator wasn't working very hard.

I'm appreciative of the education you're giving me.

RP

[Tomguy]

Remove + Rebuild (Replace?) head. With those compression test results and that diagnosis, that significantly lessens the value of the car.

As suggested, you definetly should check the valve clearances. These aren't hydraulic lifters like modern autos, you have to manually adjust clearances. Chances are pretty good that, with those low numbers, your valve clearances are too low causing valves to stay open too long. You'll need a crow's foot (17mm on an m117, dunno about this engine) and a feeler gauge set. The clearances SHOULD be listed on the emissions plate on the frame rail in front of the radiator.

The leakdown test is to find out if bad compression results from rings or valves. The method is to move each piston to TDC and fill the cyl with compressed air. If the air comes out of the oil filler cap opening, you need new rings. Out the intake, bad intake valves/seats/guides. Exhause, burnt/bad valves, bad seats and/or guides. As you can guess, if you want it to leak, you want it to be from the valves, as that's much easier and less expensive to fix.

[Arthur Dalton]

A compression test simply tells you the capable pressure in each jug..
If these findings are low , than a Leak Down test is perfomed to tell which part is causing the low compression [ leak]
Ring/valves/gaskets.
You pressurize the cylinder to see where the leak is comng from.