Red Flag Special!

[kott]

Let's see how many scary phrases can be used in this email.... you guys that know a lot will try to help me see the light, but I will resist. It's concerning a '72 280SE 4.5, LHD automatic. 108.067 12-000717, made in 5/71. Seems to be a low number. Only 7 numbers on the data plate, nothing remarkable listed best I can tell.

Stupid, dangerous phrases
- It's on a used car lot.... the kind frequented by the seriously lower echelon buyer (near the trailer park!), but at least it's on the back row.
- It of course has no service history.

Now, take a moment for the laughter and tears to subside. I'm not looking for a car to restore, although every dollar spent could be just as well spent on a 'known' car as on a mystery mobile, for sure. I'm looking for sort of a street stormer than can be ignored/ casually driven without always pondering the valet and the faraway spot and the wretchedly vandelous. This car seems to be light enough with a strong enough engine to raise a few eyebrows.

The seats are in remarkably nice condition. The body, chrome, bumpers, lights are complete. It has all hubcaps. No broken glass. It even still has the hood ornament. No power seats, but power windows (I'd have preferred roll-up). Power steering that shows some leakage

From reading other posts, I see rust can be an issue (just body, or also the frame?) and that the FI can be persnickety. I'm not really focusing on the heater valve issue also mentioned a few times... maybe the front end will hold up for a while, too.

Here's a bottom line question- what would you like to get for $1300? I'd like it to start and to run. I'd like it to have a key. It has a new battery. Gimme a few ideas on things to check- oil color, noises, chafing wires, etc.

This car seems to be old enough to not have too much electronic mumbo jumbo and pollution stuff- is this car minimally operational regardless of abuse and able to be tended by someone who doesn't speak German and charge $75 an hour?

I know, it's a dumb idea- but $1300... if nothing else, what's worth parting out on it? Good grill, complete driving lights, 4 hubcaps, bumpers, ... clues, input, and jokes welcome. Have a great holiday weekend-

[Tomguy]

For $1300, it should be at least mechanically sound. Brakes straight, no vibrations above 80MPH, and as little smoke from the exhaust as possible (some smoke on cold starts may be a sign of old valve stem seals, nothing major).

Oil pressure should peg quickly after startup. The engine should turn over before one complete revolution. Once it's warm, oil pressure can be as low as 15 at idle, but should peg the gauge at any RPM above about 1500. Fluctuating pressure at highway speeds is a sign of a serious issue.

It only feels light. It's QUITE a heavy machine. It handles like it weighs 2000 lbs less than it does. It's got a lot of spunk. Geared for top-end speed and not off-the-line runs.

Nearly every 108/109 has some PS fluid leak at some point in its life. Nothing major. You can deal with it by topping off the reservior every other week or so. If not, then you'd need to reseal the pump and/or gearbox, a little more work.

Rust, rust, rust... pick up all the mats in the trunk (in the wheelwells especially). use a magnet around every fender and corner to make sure it's not been bondoed. If the jack points (all 4) are still visible and appear to be not rusted, it's probably a good sign.

Fuel injection's weak point are the trigger points. After 32+ years, if they haven't been cleaned by now, they probably need it. Other than that, I personally haven't had issues with the D-Jet. Easy to adjust and maintain, but it runs a bit rich.

Pull the dipstick and check, make sure the oil is clean after a highway run. Pull the filler cap, you can see the cam lobe. Make sure it's not flat, it also shouldn't have any scoring on the lobe or burrs. Spare cams can be had easily enough, cheap enough and are easy enough to do (I have 2 sets personally, not including the ones on my car).

I tweak or fool around with something on my car almost every time I drive it, but I'm that kind of person It's been extremely reliable, with no issues since I revived it. Where are you located? It may give you an idea as to any potential rust.

[cth350]

Good basic car. For 1,300$, it should pass a safety inspection. The only exception I'd make is if the car is rust free.

There is no frame, it's a unibody, so get it on a lift and watch the structure as it makes its way from front to back. Poke the rails with a screw driver somewhat remorselessly. You're looking for holes, some of which will not be immediately visible. The underside usually has a heavy layer of protective rubber undercoat. The metal rusts from the inside out.

The bottoms of the fenders rust. The bottom lip is hidden under a chrome strip so you don't notice the screws. Use a flashlight to peek under the chrome. Make sure you can see something that resembles a flang with a few screws. You might want to use a screwdriver to undo the screw holding the front of that moulding.

In the wheel well, you'll find a metal plate that covers the fender opening. In spectacularly bad body jobs, they cover that plate with bondo. You should see screws holding it in. Remove them and remove the plate. The result will be a cavity that's got a power window antenna on one side and a plastic vacuum resevoir on the other. Also, you should see upper half of the rocker panel. That's the steel tube that runs under the door running from front to back. I can't describe what a good one looks like. Certainly, it doesn't have a big hole in it.

If you get that far without finding rot, buy the car. If you find rot and holes, offer the guy 750$ for the car.

-CTH

[kott]

The car is in Georgia... it has been repainted, although it seems to be a pretty good job. So one never knows what might have been covered up... What to look for in the front end- slop, wear, loose fittings, etc? Rust may suck, but as long as the car looks passable and doesn't flap at high speed.... but I will check, nevertheless.

And what will the car do/not do that tells me that it's "just" the points that are worn, as opposed to something worse? (like how many times it spins before starting...) Yes, I'm looking for specific info from a 5 cent tech check... probably not a good idea. But is a full-on PPI inspection worth it..... and what are those going for these days, anyway? And nobody mentioned its value as a parted- out vehicle, so it must be negligible.... which might also hopefully mean that parts availability is not an issue.

Yes, I saw the lobe when I opened the oil cap- looked shiny and unscored. I forgot about the oil pressure readings- thanks for the reminder. The weight issue was compared to a 560SEL, my last rig. Not concerned about heft/safety, just the sense of bulkiness.

Now, if/as I get into this, what will frustrate me? Are the shocks just shocks, and not some hydro-fluid megamatic type $y$tem? Are the points just points, even though there are 3 sets? I forget whether there's A/C..... what's the quirky item on this rig that will make me long for the time when I was not owning an MB. Is anything on this car 'sensitive', prone to trouble, or something that everyone has issues with? If I replace something, I'd like it to be "for good".... and I'd rather not be replacing dorky little stuff while some huge 'sometime down the road' mystery megabuck project looms. (420's and 560's have the chain rail/timing belt issue at 100k miles.... what's 'the universal issue' with 4.5's?)

I like the classic sense of this car with the wood details and the hooded headlights and the squarish body. The vaguely tan/salmon color is at least a slight upgrade from 'wedding white'..... I'm rambling- thanks for any more input.

[kott]

I was just reviewing some other threads from you 2 guys..... tell me how many carbs my car has . I was just reading the 250c thread, and the last hassle I need (recently had twin SU's on a '57 Bentley) is extra carbs that require mystical incantations!

(I'm just going to look at the car again, so I will definitely check the number of carbs .... but that's one of those pain-in-the-a$$ issues I was asking about in the previous thread. I just want a "regular" car..... although no MB person would ever fess up to such a thing

[kott]

there's no wheel shake or groaning noises when the tires are rocked back and forth by hand. The car has a good 'stance'- no apparent frame collapse (like on the Bentley), so the front is just a tad lower than the back. There is a rust area (hole) under the right seat mount on the passenger side.... so the seat rocks and you can see the ground from the inside. But the four jack points still exist. Perhaps bondo under one area, but not sure (no magnet). The vacuum and/or lock will not release the right rear door, and no one was around to open the trunk....The left rear lens has a small crack in the amber section, but the rest of the rear seems okay- the bumpers were sturdy, with no wiggle or squeaks. Interesting item- when trying to zero the trip odometer, I actually advanced the car's regular odometer by 2 miles.... hmm.
Anyway- it was as much fun to read the 250C thread as to actually get into buying this POS.... brought back memories of fru$tration$ and whatnot from before. But if there's reason to be shared, then I certainly have to listen....

[kott]

Whatya know.... no carbs on a FI car... what a neat idea.
I believe Sahara beige is the color- there's one on EBay right now.
I guess this car would be more 'of interest' if it had a sunroof.

[leenart]

You knows guy, its not about how much the car costs; its about how much your willing to spend. $1300 means NOTHING. Its a reference. The cost of the car is what is it going to cost to keep it on the road and I don't hear anybody asking it? Look the base cost is $1300; but if you need a new EFI ($1300), AC pump and conversion ($1500), choke and or cold start ($1000) we are now up to $5k and we haven't touched the engine. Oh yeah theres another $5k and that don't cover incedentals.
The cost of this car is $10,000. Thats what he needs to have on the side. If he doesn't have that money your just fooling him and yourselves.
Me:
1965 220 se coupe. $5000 with 40K engine, tranny, chrome, paint, suspension and brakes. After 8 months I have $7k in it for new leather, wheels, lights, distributor, cold start, etc, etc
Leonard

[kott]

As I said, it's just as easy to spend money on a good car as on a bad car.... everything will need attention eventually. The Bentley exercise was just such a case- get it running, then make it stop, then make it dependable. And this car has many parallels. So, the question is: will it run and be fun/ useful enough before the big hassles set in. It's all a game....

By the way (and this may go with the story about the HVAC system concerns to look for), I believe someone has managed to break off/remove the ears from the defrost/heat adjustment levers on the dash board.... typical from someone trying to force something open/closed?

But the A/C system seems to be intact.....

[leenart]

The heating/fresh air levers were really pretty flimsy on the later 108's. You can get aftermarket inserts, but my favorite is use the levers out of a 1966/67 108. They are hard plastic and come in clear, red and blue plastic. The nighttime look is way superior and they last forever, bit of a job putting them in but only a one time deal.
However before buying this car, I would have it seriously looked at. My rule of thumb is $10,000. Either the car costs $10,000 or you will need to put in $10,000, or any combination of that. And that number is if you do the work.
I have restored 5 of these types of cars and $10,000 is a typical number.

My current project is a W111 coupe and its up to $10,500 and I did the leather interior myself. I got the car for $5,000 and I blow through the next $5000 in about 4 months.

For a full restor, your going to need $20,000. Doesn't seem to matter what kind of car the numbers just seem to stay the same. Just to get the car up to daily driver status make sure you have $10,000 available. You'll have a great car and its hard to find another car as nice for around $10000.
There is a reason why its $1300. Trust me
Leonard

[kott]

That's exactly what the guy will say that's selling it!

Thanks for the reality check- 5 projects puts you on the front row in the 'price estimation dept.' And I'm probably not in the mood for 10k, regardless of the benefit.

Now, there's another reeeeaallllly nice one out there that's an SEL model with a sunroof and overrider front bumper, blue on blue.... said to only have 35k original miles. Asking 17 or so..... probably a less frustrating buy, but then comes the hassle of having too nice a car. Nevertheless, tell me what will need attention on this type car, having not been driven much. Fluids of course, dry rot on some hoses, probably fuel...... FI contact points? Other specific possibilities? Boy, this is fun....

[kott]

I see a '72 with floor mount automatic, and I see a '72 and a '73 with column shift. Are these all automatics? (Surely there's no column shift manuals at this late date... ?) If both automatic, is there a cut-off date between the two types?

[leenart]

I really have no experience with floor shift models. As for cut over date, I don't know if there was one. The floor shift automatics are bit rarer and maybe a bit harder to work on. Don't know of any column stick shifts.
A 30 year old car with 35,000 miles. What I have heard from people who have had these is they tend to be show cars as the seals tend to get shot. That includes, main bearings, valve seals, hydropneumatic compensator (the size of the word is a function of the cost of the parts) and transmission seals.
One thing I heard was that a pampered car that is suddenly subjected to less pampering tends to have higher system failures. Its like this, if you have an original car that is 30 years old, all those parts are 30 years old and have aged. If you suddenly upgrade the fuel injection to like-new specs, the other systems can not handle the increased demands now placed on them and then they tend to fail in succession.

How true that is I can't say, but I do tend to agree with the logic of it.
My experience has been to buy a car that needs an entire drive line; from engine to rear end and pay nothing up front. Or buy a car that has had all the systems gone through and pay a reasonable price.
A w108 six or eight cylinder with full documentation of repairs could be got for $5,000 to 10,000. I could go $5000 for a 280se six with rebuilt engine, tranny, MFI, suspension with 30,000 to 40,000 miles on the rebuild.
The resale is low on these
leonard

[Tomguy]

The 4.5 is a bulletproof engine on the bottom end. "Typical" issues are:

EFI trigger points can wear, get dirty and foul, etc.
Cams tend to wear if the camshaft oilers were ever neglected (including oil changes forgotten)
Ignition box failure (solved by most people by switching to petronix or crane ignition systems)
Then the typical 108/109 issue: Rust

If you want to restore it, forget about it. The market value of 4.5's, at least as of now, doesn't justify restoration. However, the value of show-quality 4.5's is really increasing exponentially, and may be $20k in short order...

Column vs Console shift autos: It was an option to get either, not done by year. I believe column is more common. Heater levers are a common 108/109 issue. When the valves get hard to move, forcing the levers that are brittle with age makes them snap. It's a simple fix.

[boneheaddoctor]

personally I walk at the first questionible comment....