It begins with... - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

arootbeer · #1 02-10-2007, 04:52 PM

a 1968 230S, and a 1978 280SE 2.8 (Euro). Assuming it keeps going as well as it began, it will end with a 1968 230S 2.8 and a bunch of big smiles.

Larry Delor · #2 02-10-2007, 04:56 PM

Thank goodness the 2.8 is injected and not carbed.

arootbeer · #3 02-10-2007, 05:00 PM

That's the main reason I picked it up...I'm going to go megasquirt after I get the car running, and I didn't want to have to source manifolds, etc.

Other features of the 280:

arootbeer · #4 02-10-2007, 11:45 PM

This is what we ended up with tonight: the engine is hanging from the hoist, suspended underneath something that it needs to go around. What is the linkage in the second picture? I can't tell from the front whether it's part of the steering box, or just something sitting behind it.

The main problem I ran into today is that the exhaust pipes seem to be fused to the manifold header; I haven't been able to pry them apart, even with the engine free to turn relative to the pipes. The connection looks like a simple flare/flange connection; is there any trickery that I should know about? About the best I could do was to put a short pry bar in there; the monster I've got wouldn't physically fit between the flange and the pressure plate. Luckily most of the fluids were gone in the engine; we captured about 4 oz. between the power steering fluid that came out of the return line and the coolant connection from the block to the heater core.

I know I'm not going to be so lucky with the next car...the radiator is full, and presumably everything else too, since it was driven within the last year or so.

cth350 · #5 02-11-2007, 08:01 AM

The trick is to raise the car on jack stands a bit and use a floor jack to hold up the transmission at the tail (put a block of wood between the jack and the tranny.

Grab the motor from a point where it comes up at a steep angle and use the jack at the rear to change the angle as you get past things.

As for the exhaust system, I don't think the header pipes are going to be useful to you. The down pipes in the donor don't look like the recipent's do they? If not, a saws-all is a handy way to make them go away. But do this last unless you really don't care about them.

There is a simple flang on the front of the pipe and an asbestos filled metal ring acting as a crush seal. All of that rusts together. You need to apply heat and hit the pipe (not the manifold) with a hammer. A MAPP torch is one good source of heat. Propane isn't hot enough.

Another useful technique, once the car is up on jack stands is to grab the tail of the exhaust and move it from side to side and up and down.

Is the 280e running "right now"? If not, take a breather and get it running in place. That way you know what you're transferring is going to work. Have you noticed the difference in the drive shaft couplings yet? You might get luckty and find that the center support bearing on the 280E (W116) is in the right place to swap the shaft to the 230S (w108), but I doubt it.

David Frada in Australia did precisely the same swap a few years ago. I have long forgotten the details he described.

-CTH

arootbeer · #6 02-11-2007, 10:27 AM

Thank you for all the information. That explains the stubbornness of the pipes...I've never encountered a joint like that. The headers on the 2.8 actually look very similar in position to those on the 2.3, so in the interest of cost savings I'll have to do some measuring before I break out the cutter. It will eventually get a full exhaust, but I'd prefer not to have that be the first thing I buy, or to do it piecemeal.

The 230 didn't have a transmission in it when I bought it (although it came with 2 spares and all the parts from the original one

) It's kinda funny that you mention pulling it up at an extreme angle...I've got a brace chain on there that I hooked up to keep it level. Since it doesn't have the transmission on there, I have the option of turning it in the bay enough to clear any obstacles on the way out.

The 280 was sold to me as "capable of running", with the fuel pump out; the PO said the car had fried (IIRC) 2 fuel pumps while he owned it. I know the first thing I need to do is turn the motor a couple of times by hand, but the cams and chains both look good. Anyway, since I'm planning on rewiring the 230 completely anyway, I wasn't going to spend time trying to troubleshoot any electrical issues in the 280.

arootbeer · #7 02-11-2007, 10:31 AM

The other question I've got is what are the ancillaries on the car worth?

The car has 15" bundts in great condition, with a spare bundt that's in good condition except some of the middle lip (the part that holds the cap) is broken.

The seats are vinyl and cloth, and are in very good condition, with a small amount of wear on the driver's seat bottom. The door panels and other interior panels are also in great condition, with the exception of one small and one large crack on the top of the dashboard.

The center console has fully manual climate controls on it, although the clear on the wood is cracked.

cth350 · #8 02-11-2007, 10:54 AM

15" bunts are worth more than just about anything. You sure they're not 14"?

CIS has virtually no electrical system at all, other than what's needed to run the pump. You can run a wire straight from the battery, through a fuse, to energize the pump. I went through the trouble of building a nifty box with 15 feet of wire sticking out from each end. One side has battery clips and the other side has the metal eyes needed for the pump. The box is nothing more than a switch and a fuse. It's the kind of tool that gets reused every time you find yet another car that needs a fuel pump.

The reason for getting it running first, is to make sure that the seller didn't lie or wasn't seriously confused as to why things failed. If the pump is bad, you need to buy another one anyway. Any CIS fuel pump will do.

Over the years, CIS systems changed mounting hardware and accumulator positions. They even went to a double pump for some cars. They're all the same basically. Since none of them are exactly right for your car, any of them will do. There's a post on another site about how to mount a CIS pump on an older car. For now, jury rig the thing. That reminds me. You need to replace the hard metal line from the fuel tank to the engine compartment, it's too small on a carb'ed car. You might be able to rebend the one on the 280E to meet your needs. A fuel injected 108 chassis car can also donate one.

Other things to invest in "real soon" are a CIS fuel pressure guage (about 100$) and a spare WUR (warmup/enrichment compensator). It's a box on the side of the block that controls how well the motor responds to touching the gas pedal. It also happens to handle warmup tasks, so many people don't consider it important. However, it makes a huge difference in performance and drivability. More than likely, yours needs a good cleaning or outright replacement. More than likely a used one off of ebay needs the same. Working on a spare one is better than wacking your only one.

-CTH

arootbeer · #9 02-11-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cth350

15" bunts are worth more than just about anything. You sure they're not 14"?

Yep...I just double-checked. All 5 are 15". That's good to know....I'm sure it'll help fund the project.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cth350

CIS has virtually no electrical system at all, other than what's needed to run the pump. You can run a wire straight from the battery, through a fuse, to energize the pump. I went through the trouble of building a nifty box with 15 feet of wire sticking out from each end. One side has battery clips and the other side has the metal eyes needed for the pump. The box is nothing more than a switch and a fuse. It's the kind of tool that gets reused every time you find yet another car that needs a fuel pump.

The reason for getting it running first, is to make sure that the seller didn't lie or wasn't seriously confused as to why things failed. If the pump is bad, you need to buy another one anyway. Any CIS fuel pump will do.

Over the years, CIS systems changed mounting hardware and accumulator positions. They even went to a double pump for some cars. They're all the same basically. Since none of them are exactly right for your car, any of them will do. There's a post on another site about how to mount a CIS pump on an older car. For now, jury rig the thing. That reminds me. You need to replace the hard metal line from the fuel tank to the engine compartment, it's too small on a carb'ed car. You might be able to rebend the one on the 280E to meet your needs. A fuel injected 108 chassis car can also donate one.

Other things to invest in "real soon" are a CIS fuel pressure guage (about 100$) and a spare WUR (warmup/enrichment compensator). It's a box on the side of the block that controls how well the motor responds to touching the gas pedal. It also happens to handle warmup tasks, so many people don't consider it important. However, it makes a huge difference in performance and drivability. More than likely, yours needs a good cleaning or outright replacement. More than likely a used one off of ebay needs the same. Working on a spare one is better than wacking your only one.

-CTH

Thanks for the additional info. The car is a 111, not a 108, and the seller told me it was a '68 (which I'm sure is the source of your confusion, but according to the heckflosse.nl page there were something like 80 111s made in 1968). I haven't checked the vin, there's not a manufacturer's plate on the door jamb, and the plate on the engine compartment doesn't have a date of manufacture on it (at least not one that's not encoded somehow), but it is definitely a finny.

I can rig up a switch box like you mentioned without any problem (I think the "EVRY" mod I've got from my VW TDI days will probably work, I'll need to add a fuse) and I'll make sure the engine still runs. I haven't been under the back end yet, but does the 111 have an external fuel pump like the 116? (The seller was kind enough to supply a replacement pump that hasn't been installed yet.)

I'll look into the hard-pipe situation, as well. I believe the fuel supply line is 1/4" on the 230, which I assume is the one you're talking about being too small? Would it be possible to supplement the volume by pressure, using an inline pump like a Walbro (and possibly depressurizing inside the engine compartment), or would that cause problems with the CIS equipment?

I'll also look into the WUR situation. Is there a good way to diagnose the condition of that part?

I'm glad to hear that the CIS system is as simple as I suspected it was. The less wiring I have to recreate, the happier I'll be. When I'm wiring for MS, that's a different matter, because then I'm starting from the front with "Okay, I need this, this, this, and this wire". But when I'm trying to make sure all the necessary systems are accounted for in someone else's wiring, it can get more frustrating.

Out of curiosity, when I was looking for the date of manufacture info in the trunk, I noticed that the entire inside of the trunk is painted black, not light tan like the rest of the car. Is that standard for these cars?

t walgamuth · #10 02-11-2007, 06:05 PM

yes.

i agree it is better to check out the motor before putting it in and hooking everything up. at least try to run a compression test. a battery and some jumper cables should be enough to crank it over.

i once put a motor in a 64 Lincoln without checking it out and had to take it right back out.

it was a bitc& too!

tom w

Mark DiSilvestro · #11 02-11-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

yes.

i agree it is better to check out the motor before putting it in and hooking everything up. at least try to run a compression test. a battery and some jumper cables should be enough to crank it over.

i once put a motor in a 64 Lincoln without checking it out and had to take it right back out.

it was a bitc& too!

tom w

Was that one of those suicide-door Lincolns with the power-steering pump built on to the engine crank-pulley?

Happy Motoring, Mark

cth350 · #12 02-11-2007, 10:33 PM

that's the second error I made today. At least on this thread it was just a typo from moving too fast this morning. Yes, a 230S is definitely not a 108. I only threw the chassis numbers in for the benefit of somebody doing a search later that they can find the thread with a chassis number. -CTH

arootbeer · #13 02-12-2007, 09:59 AM

Haha...not a problem at all. I just wanted to make sure (even with as many similiarities as there are) that I didn't get any 108-specific advice that would frustrate me later.

t walgamuth · #14 02-12-2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark DiSilvestro

Was that one of those suicide-door Lincolns with the power-steering pump built on to the engine crank-pulley?

Happy Motoring, Mark

maybe. i have slept since then.

tom w

arootbeer · #15 02-26-2007, 11:04 PM

Picked myself up a Ridgid reciprocating saw at the Home Depot, and some 14 TPI metal blades. It took me about 10 minutes to get all the way through the front exhaust pipe, between the flange and the keeper, but as soon as I'd cut through that both pipes dropped away (the sealing ring came out with the rear pipe).

So now I've got an M180 with dual Solex carbs AND a fuel injected head if anybody's interested

Next steps: get the 2.8 running in place, then get it out, remove the tranny, replace with the 2.3 tranny, and get it mounted in the 230.

I did measure the fuel supply and return hardlines on the 230, and they are 1/4". Will that volume be sufficient to supply the 2.8? If I connect the fuel pump to a circuit that's separate from the key in the 280, and turn it on, it will just circulate fuel until the injection system needs it, right?

Can anybody tell me what the two vertical pipes in the 3rd picture are for?

I've also included a (somewhat blurry, autofocus didn't like it) picture of the placard on the radiator support, in case anyone's curious about the car itself.