1977 280SE valve tap?

[mabryt]

Hi all-

I'm thinking of buying a 1977 280se with 115k miles.

There is a slight valve tap when the car is starting and warming up, but it almost disappears when driving. Is this serious?

The cosmetics are great. Would you buy this car? For how much?

Many thanks for any and all comments...

[kalpol]

Originally Posted by mabryt@mac.com

Hi all-

I'm thinking of buying a 1977 280se with 115k miles.

There is a slight valve tap when the car is starting and warming up, but it almost disappears when driving. Is this serious?

The cosmetics are great. Would you buy this car? For how much?

Many thanks for any and all comments...

If it's a European model, those are pretty good cars, but also fairly worthless in terms of price...I paid $1500 for mine, I'd say for a nice one maybe 2500-3500. The American ones about about 45 less horsepower and are pretty slow, i wouldn't bother.

Also, the mileage may (probably) is not correct if it's a european car since they had to swap out the speedometer when they brought it over here.

The valve tapping may just be an adjustment...the valves should be adjusted every 15-20k miles. The engines are pretty noisy anyway, compared to modern cars though.

If it is NOT RUSTY, has the manual AC controls, runs well, shifts well, drives well, looks good, and doesn't have any other major issues, I'd get it. I like mine a lot. Unless you have documents for the mileage, assume it's got a lot more than it says. You'll spend a grand or two on it right away fixing the suspension (bushing, shocks, etc), probably the AC, and getting it tuned and the valves adjusted.

[mbdoc]

Valve noise rarely changes on a M110 engine..they are almost always noisy.

Possibly the timing chain is making the noise.

Have had several "twin-cams" & IF you keep oil in them they are very reliable!

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by kalpol

If it's a European model, those are pretty good cars, but also fairly worthless in terms of price...I paid $1500 for mine, I'd say for a nice one maybe 2500-3500. The American ones about about 45 less horsepower and are pretty slow, i wouldn't bother.

Also, the mileage may (probably) is not correct if it's a european car since they had to swap out the speedometer when they brought it over here.

The valve tapping may just be an adjustment...the valves should be adjusted every 15-20k miles. The engines are pretty noisy anyway, compared to modern cars though.

If it is NOT RUSTY, has the manual AC controls, runs well, shifts well, drives well, looks good, and doesn't have any other major issues, I'd get it. I like mine a lot. Unless you have documents for the mileage, assume it's got a lot more than it says. You'll spend a grand or two on it right away fixing the suspension (bushing, shocks, etc), probably the AC, and getting it tuned and the valves adjusted.

I disagree to this extent...a us spec 110 has plenty of power. Not as much as the very impressive euro version but very adequate....and plenty of torque too.

Tom W

[mabryt]

Really appreciate the input- the car really is perfect cosmetically, so I'm going to offer $2800 and see what he says. I really like the styling- will let you know what happens!

THANKS!!!

[300SDog]

I disagree to this extent...

Yep lets be honest here.... y'all tellin him "nothin to worry about" are bein optimistic. Here's the real deal with valve clatter, assuming typical 6cyl twincam maintenance and wear items at/near 115k miles:

1) worn out self-torquing valve adjust nuts ($75+ in parts per valve thats rattling)

2) stretched timing chain ($800+ professionally done w/tensioner, rails etc)

And yeah replacing the M110 timing chain is SOP at/near 120,000 miles, then again when the engine has 260k or so.

[Chas H]

How about worn cam lobes? I have seen a few engines with bad cams.

[kalpol]

I have heard of one other M110 with a worn cam lobe, but it had undergone some amateur head work and it seemed that the valve on that lobe was misadjusted.

As for the timing chain, I think 120k is a very low estimate - mine has nearly 150k on it and it's still OK...if the chain stretch measurement is valid on these engines just the same as the OM617 engines (and I imagine there's a little more clearance than there is in the diesels), then i've just got a couple of degrees of stretch so far and a long way to go yet.

[300SDog]

Bad comparison with m617, you oughta know better. Gasoline engine stretch tolerance 6-8 degrees max where performance suffers radically. Nothin appears noticably wrong with the diesel even at 10-12. Recommend you do a compression test too when measuring TC stretch on yer 280S, kalpol. Again unlike the diesel where compression can vary 125+ from 375-250lbs, twincam compression ranges waay shorter like 120-160 total agregate. At less then 120 lbs or with variance between cyls, suspect its ready for the famous once-in-lifetime 6cyl valve job - typically at/near 150k miles among m180's, m130's and m110's. Thats why alot of em get traded at this mileage.

Otherwise you've heard only one set of m110 cams'n rockers going south? Count me down for another with my '74, as documented in archives here - not difficult DIY. And my '74 280/8 had service records from day one - impeccably maintained, first series of the twincam. Symptoms beyond visual inspect are sudden loss of power, difficult to start.

Meanwhile decent set of cams'n carrier on the used parts market are hot-ticket item, that oughta tell you something. Circa '92 they were scarce as hens teeth, practically every 280/8 at boneyards had visual signs of lobes'n rockers wearing thin. Finally got lucky finding a set from 280/8 with less than 100k miles. This was notorious problem among twincam 114's that everybody oughta be aware of. Yet my '77 280SEL at 190k miles showed no similar signs of wear.

Alright, which one of you guys is selling this 280S? It sounds like decent value at/near $2500. And if i wouldnt rather own an immaculate 220/w115 for the same price, might be tempted to jump on it myself.

(edit: but thats just me the cobbler/scavenger - aint never paid more than $1500 for any Mercedes Benz.

[kalpol]

I'm just curious about the rate of incidence of valve problems versus the rate of incidence of scheduled maintenance. But I guess we'll see, I borrowed a compression tester from my brother the other day for the Fiat, so I'll test the 280SE and see what things are doing at 146k miles.

[pj67coll]

I finally sold mine at 236K miles because the body was disintegrating. The engine had never been touched. Ran like a dream. Guess I was just lucky?

- Peter.

[300SDog]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

I finally sold mine at 236K miles because the body was disintegrating. The engine had never been touched. Ran like a dream. Guess I was just lucky?

And you have documented history of the '79 280S from day one? Otherwise a first for me hearing the earlier inline 6 not needing seals, guides and valvework at/near 150k miles. Even my '77 280SEL had valve and cyl head work done at 145k by previous owner. Its like clockwork on m180, m130 and early m110's.... then the engine generally lasts up to 300k miles.

I could be wrong about later m110 variations though. Your '79 (last series of the m110?) could share upgrades with early '80s inline 6, sufferin none of the valve train probs of earlier versions with improved guides, seals etc. Yep circa 1980/81 MB upgraded the valve train on the 240D too, managed to squeeze another 2hp into the mix.

I'm just curious about the rate of incidence of valve problems versus the rate of incidence of scheduled maintenance.

Yep, and thats why m110 self-torquing valve adjust nuts oughta be checked. If it takes less than about 28lbs to turn em, then they need replaced. Generic mechanics unfamiliar with em will miss this, and then rockers never hold their settings.