Ethanol sucks - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Emmerich · #1 12-23-2007, 01:34 AM

Does anybody elses older MB run like crap on ethanol like my 6.9 and 6.3 do, or is it just me?

alabbasi · #2 12-23-2007, 02:15 AM

How much Ethanol are they putting into gas these days?

Emmerich · #3 12-23-2007, 12:29 PM

Around here I have seen signs that say up to 10%. My mechanic in Houston (MPH Automotive) says it can lean things out by 10% or more. These non-computer cars cannot adjust like the new ones can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

How much Ethanol are they putting into gas these days?

Tomguy · #4 12-23-2007, 04:18 PM

Many stations around here are starting to crap up their gas too. The Sunocos were the first, then the discount stations (Like Turkey Hill) followed. Which means I'm now paying more money for crappier gas that gets me less mileage.

My Benz ran VERY poorly on Sunoco with ethanol. I hate putting it in my Charger. I think I'm going to stop filling up at Turkey Hill and only put Amoco/BP and Exxon/Mobil in my tank. I get noticeably less mileage and power with it.

Ken300D · #5 12-25-2007, 09:37 AM

This may be the method used to force old cars off the road, and cause another round of economic consumption. Right now 10% is routine. You can look for that to go up in the future. So, as the Ethanol content increases, you cause everyone to need the flex-fuel engines. Voila! Everyone has to buy a new car!

I remember when "gasohol" was first attempted back in the 80's. Alcohol absorbs water, so when it was put into gas station's legacy storage tanks, the alcohol soaked up all the water and that was pumped into customer's vehicles. Gave the "gasohol" intiative a pretty bad reputation.

It would be pretty cool if they kept the Ethanol in a separate tank, and let customers "dial-in" the percentage of "E" they wanted to buy. For an old car, you'd dial in E0, and if you wanted to go "green" with your new flex-fuel Chevy, dial in E85.

Ken300D

Emmerich · #6 12-25-2007, 02:06 PM

I wondered that too, but it seems like they would get the old cars off by having stricter smog requirements, rather than less. Here in Texas they go away after 25 years and no need for inspection.

Ethanol will trash small engines like mowers, weedeaters, etc because the run too lean and burn up. It also eats up connecting joints on marine fiberglass fuel tanks, causing major splits. Not good!

Ethanol is a false hope. We end up spending more to get less (not to mention outright damage) and the original goal of energy conservation is not only missed, but we achieved the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken300D

This may be the method used to force old cars off the road, and cause another round of economic consumption. Right now 10% is routine. You can look for that to go up in the future. So, as the Ethanol content increases, you cause everyone to need the flex-fuel engines. Voila! Everyone has to buy a new car!

I remember when "gasohol" was first attempted back in the 80's. Alcohol absorbs water, so when it was put into gas station's legacy storage tanks, the alcohol soaked up all the water and that was pumped into customer's vehicles. Gave the "gasohol" intiative a pretty bad reputation.

It would be pretty cool if they kept the Ethanol in a separate tank, and let customers "dial-in" the percentage of "E" they wanted to buy. For an old car, you'd dial in E0, and if you wanted to go "green" with your new flex-fuel Chevy, dial in E85.

Ken300D

woody loller · #7 12-26-2007, 10:28 AM

Are there any additives out there that we can use with the ethanol gas to help out these older engines?

Emmerich · #8 12-26-2007, 06:10 PM

Lead.

But since that is not always practical, find ethanol free gasoline which may be impossible unless you buy from a specialty shop = $$$$

I am planning on buying some 114 leaded race fuel and blend my own to run in my 6.3. I am shooting for a 96 octane, give or take.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody loller

Are there any additives out there that we can use with the ethanol gas to help out these older engines?

alabbasi · #9 12-26-2007, 06:52 PM

Anyone heard of Octane Supreme 130?
The site is: http://www.kemcooil.com/specials.php
One Quart is $21 but 5 cases runs for about $500 which works out to around $4.20/quart.

I think this will work on the older pre cat models but can cause damage to catalytic converters.

Emmerich · #10 12-26-2007, 08:09 PM

Al, thats one of many octane boosters than claim to use real TEL in it. Don't know if the quantities are useful or not.

I have a couple of jugs of the real deal tetraethyl lead. One of these days I was going to mix it up for my 914-8, I just need to figure out how to dilute it properly.

Fred

JMURiz · #11 12-27-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emmerich

Al, thats one of many octane boosters than claim to use real TEL in it. Don't know if the quantities are useful or not.

I have a couple of jugs of the real deal tetraethyl lead. One of these days I was going to mix it up for my 914-8, I just need to figure out how to dilute it properly.

Fred

Wait a second, there's another 914 guy here? Cool deal, I've got a mildly modded '73 914 2.0.

BTW I was wondering why my lawn mower started leaking recently, maybe it's the alcohol in the gas?

Emmerich · #12 12-27-2007, 12:12 PM

Ethanol makes engines run too lean and can eat up certain materials. That could be your problem. I have a friend who had a mower gas tank crack on a near new mower for no reason.

I have a 914 with a Chevy small block in it. Supposed to be 400HP. Will be driving it in a few days. Should be fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMURiz

Wait a second, there's another 914 guy here? Cool deal, I've got a mildly modded '73 914 2.0.

BTW I was wondering why my lawn mower started leaking recently, maybe it's the alcohol in the gas?

holdthewind · #13 01-24-2008, 03:43 PM

Ethanol doesn't suck... matter of fact its actually quite fun. I usually like ethanol that taste like tequila, would have to be my fave. spiced rum and coke is always a treat also.

Richen your carb, change fuel lines and filters and you should be fine. Ethanol should have a higher octane rating. I know its not actually called octane, but you get the idea.

Hell... bump the compression up, adjust you fuel mixture, advance the timing, make sure the tank and all lines, gaskets in carbs are ethanol friendly. Run E85 only and your good to go (you'll even probably enjoy the power increase)

Emmerich · #14 01-24-2008, 04:16 PM

I should say it sucks in cars, if you like the taste, go for it.

Raising octane isn't the problem or issue...it is an oxygenator which makes things too lean.

I have a CIS car, there is no carb too adjust. And there is a efficiency loss compared to gasoline, plus it costs more. So explain why I should pay more to get less and have to use even more of the inferior fuel....

In simpler terms, there is no power increase. And octane is not a power booster either (I assume thats where you were coming from).

Quote:

Originally Posted by holdthewind

Ethanol doesn't suck... matter of fact its actually quite fun. I usually like ethanol that taste like tequila, would have to be my fave. spiced rum and coke is always a treat also.

Richen your carb, change fuel lines and filters and you should be fine. Ethanol should have a higher octane rating. I know its not actually called octane, but you get the idea.

Hell... bump the compression up, adjust you fuel mixture, advance the timing, make sure the tank and all lines, gaskets in carbs are ethanol friendly. Run E85 only and your good to go (you'll even probably enjoy the power increase)

Tomguy · #15 01-24-2008, 08:53 PM

The enthalpy of ethanol is lower than gasoline, so it produces less power in combustion.
It's also polar, meaning it attracts water. Big problem in the winter with condensation, especially in older vehicles.
It burns cooler than gasoline so older engines without all the modern babysitting electronics don't actually get complete combustion, and in the case of the 6.3 and other older engines (like 3.5s, 4.5s, etc) it gives higher emissions because they have no cats to combust that unburned fuel.

All that aside, even in modern engines, ethanol doesn't produce as much power nor get as much efficiency except for engines designed to run it (and I don't mean a flex-fuel engine, I mean an ethanol engine). In those engines, since compression is higher, ethanol can get the same power as regular unleaded. Keep in mind, gas engines in Europe typically give 5-10% more power because they have better gas and therefore can have higher compression.