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  #1  
Old 09-11-2008, 05:23 AM
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1964 220SE pinging/running issues

hi guys

i recently bought a 64 220SE which i'm trying to get running correctly once more. the previous owner had the head rebuilt, and was never able to get it to run properly again. the previous owner said the car had always had a problem with pinging under load but that it always started easily (cold start worked).

as it stands now, the cold start solenoid does not engage unless given 12V directly.

i set the timing to 6 degrees and at this, it pulls nicely but pings even under light load. if i retard it to lessen the pinging, it stutters and doesnt accelerate cleanly (but still seems to ping a little bit under heavy load).

plugs, points, etc are new. the plugs are a nice tan colour.

the valve timing is set such that (viewed from the front) the right side of notch on the washer meets with the left side of the pedestal dimple (the chain is quite new)

when it is warmed up it SEEMS to ping less. when hot if i remove the hose from the idle screw to the air filter it still sucks air. if i block the hose the engine rpms lower a lot and then it stalls.

the cold start fuse is ok and if i jump the thermo or temp switch it doesnt engage the cold start. i think the two cube relays mounted on the relay rack on the firewall are the cold start/thermo time switch relays? if i swap them over it doesn't make a difference.

i think they are two separate issues, could the running problems be because someone didnt time the IP correctly? or could the problem somehow relate to the cold start issue?

does anyone have any ideas?

thanks!
kaydee

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  #2  
Old 09-11-2008, 07:02 PM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 38,291
Have you checked to see if your mechanical advance and vac advance mechanisms are working correctly? if not put a timing light on it and see what it does under different rpm conditions. total mechanical and vac advance should be in the order of 35 or so degrees. Remember the fuel available then was better for ping control than now so you may have to run less initial advance.

Tom W
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..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #3  
Old 09-12-2008, 05:38 AM
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hi Tom,

thanks for the ideas. the vacuum advance works and the mechanical advance feels free and well sprung etc. the car pulls very well but pings, is it possible the IP is not timed correctly?
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  #4  
Old 09-12-2008, 08:00 AM
Daimler Benz technician
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rockledge, Fl
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no one even addressed the most important point...
what kind of fuel are you using?

I bet you're using regular!

this car needs 93 octane.


your plugs should be bosch wr9dc's
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Pierre Hedary 1985 280SEL, 1970 111.026 in progress
Mercedes technical advice hotline: 407 765 2867
[servicing older Mercedes in the state of Florida with competence and passion].

From the standpoint of an honest MB technician, Vegetable oil is a threat to your diesel engine's mechanical integrity.
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  #5  
Old 09-12-2008, 08:34 PM
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hi Pierre,

i'm using 98 octane.

the pinging seems to be getting worse, even when it is retarded to the point it no longer pulls cleanly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pch2021 View Post
no one even addressed the most important point...
what kind of fuel are you using?

I bet you're using regular!

this car needs 93 octane.


your plugs should be bosch wr9dc's
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  #6  
Old 09-12-2008, 10:21 PM
Daimler Benz technician
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rockledge, Fl
Posts: 130
98?
or 93?

next step- lets look at the oil levels in the pump. If the oil is low, the car may ping.

if the oil is too high, the car will smoke.

second, is the ping a mechanical noise? or is it certainly coming from the combustion chambers?
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Pierre Hedary 1985 280SEL, 1970 111.026 in progress
Mercedes technical advice hotline: 407 765 2867
[servicing older Mercedes in the state of Florida with competence and passion].

From the standpoint of an honest MB technician, Vegetable oil is a threat to your diesel engine's mechanical integrity.
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2008, 10:36 PM
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hi Pierre,

98 octane - premium unleaded.

the oil level was very high, but the oil wasn't particularly diluted. it was within a few inches of the top of the pump. i removed the dipstick and let much oil out, but wasn't able to suck the remaining excess out. it probably ran better with the excess oil.

im pretty sure its pinging because it becomes worse with more advance.

maybe the pump is incorrectly timed?




Quote:
Originally Posted by pch2021 View Post
98?
or 93?

next step- lets look at the oil levels in the pump. If the oil is low, the car may ping.

if the oil is too high, the car will smoke.

second, is the ping a mechanical noise? or is it certainly coming from the combustion chambers?
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  #8  
Old 09-13-2008, 04:19 PM
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Location: Florida / N.H.
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What is the compression PSI ?
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  #9  
Old 09-13-2008, 10:40 PM
Daimler Benz technician
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rockledge, Fl
Posts: 130
Pump timing is a good place to look. Lets also start with ignition timing.

Home base on this car should be somehwat preset with minimal adjustment [10 degrees].

just off the bat, timing should be at 3 degrees, BTDC for the ignition- this is detemrined by aligning marks- not with a timing light or stroboscope.

with your advance, the curve extends to something like 25 degees BTDC .

fuel delivery-

start of delivery is harder to determine on the Bosch ZEB twin chamber pump. The initial injection to the number one cylinder should begin with the fuel pump supplying fuel at 15 degrees before top dead center, with a varinace of 1 degree.
I may need to check this information, though.

There may be a tag remaing on your cor support that specifies star tof delivery.

fuel getitng delivered late would cause this, but some other symptoms would be of help, first-

make sure ignition timing is not overly advanced [check rleationship of distibutor timing marks to crank pulley markings- engine OFF]

second, how else does the car run?
is it hard to start?
does it idle rough?does it have power?

does it run rough?

is the sound isolated? [IE generator, wateprump...are they ok?]
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Pierre Hedary 1985 280SEL, 1970 111.026 in progress
Mercedes technical advice hotline: 407 765 2867
[servicing older Mercedes in the state of Florida with competence and passion].

From the standpoint of an honest MB technician, Vegetable oil is a threat to your diesel engine's mechanical integrity.
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  #10  
Old 09-14-2008, 12:02 AM
wbain5280's Avatar
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Location: Northern Va.
Posts: 3,386
Pump timing is not an issue because it uses port injection.

There is a time delay relay on the firewall that uses a bimetallic strip and has an adjustment screw on it. It needs to be carefully adjusted, or eliminated. I will post a schematic of the 220SEb and the later 250SE. You may want to eliminate some wiring and simplify to the 250SE style.
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Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #11  
Old 09-18-2008, 11:56 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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hi guys

thanks very much for your help. i've been too busy to look at the car again until now. could the pinging have anything to do with the non operative cold start?

the pinging seemed to worsen after i drained some of the excess oil.. could this be indicative of a fundamental problem with the injection pump, or could it be out of time? is there an easy way to check the pump timing without removing it?

thanks!
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  #12  
Old 09-19-2008, 01:27 AM
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Excess oil will impare the governpr counterweights. These spin with the internal FI pump cam, not the main valve camshaft, to adjust the injection amount.

I took some pics of the schematic but I'm having trouble uploading one of them. I'll try again in the morning. You can simplify the cold start circuit and bypass the time delay relay.

Check the W113 Pagoda group:

http://www.sl113.org/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=16

do a search on 'cold start' or 'injection pump'. poster ja17 had a biannual W113 GTG at his place in Ohio. He had lots of good info especially about injection pumps.
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Regards

Warren

Currently 1965 220Sb, 2002 FORD Crown Vic Police Interceptor

Had 1965 220SEb, 1967 230S, 280SE 4.5, 300SE (W126), 420SEL

ENTER > = (HP RPN)

Not part of the in-crowd since 1952.
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2008, 11:36 PM
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thanks very much... did you have any luck with the schematic? i couldn't find reference to this on the webpage you directed me to, though it does seem to have much useful information.

i suppose it would be wise to attend to the cold start issue before the pinging?
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  #14  
Old 09-25-2008, 08:50 PM
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hi Warren, did you have any luck with the schematic?

also what should be the maximum compression generated, i am wondering if the head is now too short.



[QUOTE=wbain5280;1969096]Excess oil will impare the governpr counterweights. These spin with the internal FI pump cam, not the main valve camshaft, to adjust the injection amount.

I took some pics of the schematic but I'm having trouble uploading one of them. I'll try again in the morning. You can simplify the cold start circuit and bypass the time delay relay.
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  #15  
Old 09-25-2008, 11:36 PM
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Location: Blacklick, Ohio
Posts: 238
Hello,

I second Arthur's suggestion, "what is the compression". Since the head has been re-conditioned, the compression may be the issue.

Cold starting systems on these cars can be quite complex, but most likely not related. We can get into this later.

Injection timing is usually not resposible for these kind of issues with this type of injection system.

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Blacklick, Ohio
1964 220SE Rally (La Carrera Panamericana someday)
1966 Unimog 404s (Swedish Army)
1969 300SEL 6.3 (sold)
1969 280SL Pagoda
1973 280SEL 4.5
1974 450SLC FIA Rally car (standard trans)
1982 300D turbo (winter driver)
1986 560SEC
1989 Unimog FLU419 (US Army)
1991 300TE (wife)
2002 SLK 32 AMG (350 hp)
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